An Analysis on Discontented Fandom

[Frk It]

I think if we did a better job, we'd be in a better place today? Are they though? Do you think Grigorenko, for example, fell off because of lack of talent or maybe lack of development. It seems like the trend is more about chasing the most ready product as oppose to growing one. Then again, I'm not in the meeting and can't say exactly.

In my experience, and I think most, if not all can relate. You can be an all knowing teacher but if you don't know how to get through your students, you're not going to have much effect. So I think it's about finding people with such abilities. That said, I can't say for sure how good or bad we are at it. However, that's the area I'd try to chase success in the most. You can always improve.

If the general premise were true, let's focus our $ and time on development, so we don't have to rely on drafting high to get good players... I mean of course every team would do that... but obviously it's either A) not that easy or B) all teams are already doing it.

There are a few examples where a team really botched a particular player's development pretty badly, but I think by and large most players would amount to essentially the same thing in most environments. Nashville has this aura about being able to develop defenseman. Do I think XO and Sproul would be much better players if Nashville took them? Personally, I really don't...

 

[Invictus12]

If the general premise were true, let's focus our $ and time on development, so we don't have to rely on drafting high to get good players... I mean of course every team would do that... but obviously it's either A) not that easy or B) all teams are already doing it. Because every team would want that.

There are a few examples where a team really botched a particular player's development pretty badly, but I think by and large most players would amount to essentially the same thing in most environments. Nashville has this aura about being able to develop defenseman. Do I think XO and Sproul would be much better players if Nashville took them? Personally, I really don't...

Can't speak for Nashville but, on more isolated basis, do you think Sproul and XO had, or have the potential to be better than they are as of today? Ofcourse, they could also be worse but I do think the ability to move the needle is there and can be tapped.

 

[Frk It]

Can't speak for Nashville but, on more isolated basis, do you think Sproul and XO had, or have the potential to be better than they are as of today? Ofcourse, they could also be worse but I do think the ability to move the needle is there and can be tapped.

In the case of XO, the question always was how much is he going to be able to improve his skating. Everything else has always been pretty solid. So I don't know that Nashville, or any other team would have helped him make more strides in his skating than we did.

With Sproul... possibly? Although I think Nelson did a really good job helping him clean up his defensive game. I don't really understand why he hasn't become a good player to be honest, he had all the gifts/tools you look for.

I do agree with you that in a general sense some teams are better at maximizing their prospects than others, and we should strive to be one of those teams. I just think that the amount that it varies among teams is pretty minimal in most cases, but that is entirely my opinion. I think "development" is an interesting topic. Obviously NHL teams spend a fair amount of $$ on it so it must have it's place.

 

[The Zermanator]

Can't speak for Nashville but, on more isolated basis, do you think Sproul and XO had, or have the potential to be better than they are as of today? Ofcourse, they could also be worse but I do think the ability to move the needle is there and can be tapped.

I think they probably did, moreso in Sproul's case (XO's skating is what has really held him back). But our team was too focused on trying to make (very brief) playoff appearances to give the youngsters the chance to work their game in the NHL, being tutored by NHL coaching staffs, and most importantly, playing against the best players in the world.

I doubt this can ultimately be proven, but I've often wondered if the over-ripening philosophy does more damage than good for some players. Players stop developing at some point, it's why you don't really ever see some 30 year old come out of nowhere and break out. So if a player is kept too long in a lower league, they kind of top out at that level. Like if you were to play beer league your entire life, you'd never really be better than beer league level. So if you keep a guy in the AHL too long, he becomes an AHL player.

I think it's important for players like Sproul to make their mistakes playing at the NHL level. That way he can find equilibrium between the type of player he is, and the reality of NHL hockey. Sure, it bites you in the *** sometimes, but that's why you limit usage at first and expand their role as they get more comfortable.

 

[Invictus12]

In the case of XO, the question always was how much is he going to be able to improve his skating. Everything else has always been pretty solid. So I don't know that Nashville, or any other team would have helped him make more strides in his skating than we did.

With Sproul... possibly? Although I think Nelson did a really good job helping him clean up his defensive game. I don't really understand why he hasn't become a good player to be honest, he had all the gifts/tools you look for.

I do agree with you that in a general sense some teams are better at maximizing their prospects than others, and we should strive to be one of those teams. I just think that the amount that it varies among teams is pretty minimal in most cases, but that is entirely my opinion. I think "development" is an interesting topic. Obviously NHL teams spend a fair amount of $$ on it so it must have it's place.

This isn't related to Hockey directly but I think it sort of applies. My father's friend from Soviet sporting days works as a sprinter coach in China now. He visited several years ago and he was talking about a girl that had really quick feet but had an issue on her technique. How she'd push off or something to that extent. (Don't know the terminology) He was talking about how he was arguing and lost to directors... His claim was that if they gave him six months to work on it with her, she'd be in Olympics. They scrapped her because they felt she was a tad old to be re-taught. Generally, often people who make financial decisions don't understand what the coach sees. At the same time though, they tend to have the bigger impact in decision making. Although, it's also entirely possible that the coach would have failed. So, who knows? I also think that personal life will have a large effect on the trajectory as well. That I think is also a point where things need to be addressed when they need to be addressed. It's important to have people who will recognize the issue and you listen to their expertise.

I do wonder though, in case of Cholowski, and him playing in WHL... How much input will Red Wings have in his development there? What I'm wondering, whether it's even possible for a team, with the structure as it is, to even be able to input much if at all? He will play there but, how good are the people that will be there to train him and how much of an input does the Red Wings have? Axel Holmstrom played in Sweden for a while, I'd think it was entirely wait and see game for the Wings in his case...

 

[Invictus12]

I think they probably did, moreso in Sproul's case (XO's skating is what has really held him back). But our team was too focused on trying to make (very brief) playoff appearances to give the youngsters the chance to work their game in the NHL, being tutored by NHL coaching staffs, and most importantly, playing against the best players in the world.

I doubt this can ultimately be proven, but I've often wondered if the over-ripening philosophy does more damage than good for some players. Players stop developing at some point, it's why you don't really ever see some 30 year old come out of nowhere and break out. So if a player is kept too long in a lower league, they kind of top out at that level. Like if you were to play beer league your entire life, you'd never really be better than beer league level. So if you keep a guy in the AHL too long, he becomes an AHL player.

I think it's important for players like Sproul to make their mistakes playing at the NHL level. That way he can find equilibrium between the type of player he is, and the reality of NHL hockey. Sure, it bites you in the *** sometimes, but that's why you limit usage at first and expand their role as they get more comfortable.

If there's a critique I have of Holland it's really that he seemed to overrule Babcock on the decisions in matters of who would be put on the ice. I can't remember the player but it was someone from the AHL. I think that's a problem because if you're trying to win games, I think Holland would be better off at trying to accommodate the coach in matters of winning strategy. That's what Babs was paid for, Holland ought to have used his expertise in such matters. It's a little different if Babs was screaming for a guy like Stamkos because it's not that simple but in this case,it was over a player in our possession.

 

[Frk It]

I do wonder though, in case of Cholowski, and him playing in WHL... How much input will Red Wings have in his development there? What I'm wondering, whether it's even possible for a team, with the structure as it is, to even be able to input much if at all? He will play there but, how good are the people that will be there to train him and how much of an input does the Red Wings have? Axel Holmstrom played in Sweden for a while, I'd think it was entirely wait and see game for the Wings in his case...

I think teams have a fair amount of say in where the prospects play, and should be very on top of getting them out of toxic environments (like Detroit did with Saarijarvi).

As far as how much they impact their day to day? I think it's very little. I think they give them guidance in the off-season on training and nutrition, and then trust the infrastructure of whatever team they are with to push them in the best direction. Until they get to the AHL or NHL, I think the vast majority of development is guided by the coaches/training staff of whatever Junior/NCAA/Euro team they are on.

 

[Probert]

Well, I got through it just fine when they were the Dead Wings of the 80s. This too shall pass. If anything it's a good exercise for us, because let's be honest, while things aren't going the way we'd like, we've been pretty spoiled as fans for the past 20+ years. I just look for the silver lining: Mantha, Mrazek's resurgence, Witkowski, a legit youth movement. Maybe even AA to start the season lol.