All-Time Draft #11, Part 3

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arrbez

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Jun 2, 2004
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Kilekenny selects Reed Larson, D

- Larson is one of only three defensemen in NHL history to record at least nine straight seasons with 50 or more points. His nine successive 50-point campaigns came from 1977-78 through 1985-86, joining Paul Coffey (15) and Phil Housley (11) in this select group.


Ray Bourque scored 50+ in his first 15 seasons (would have been 18 if not for the strike-shortened 1995 campaign where he had 43 in 46 games).

Al MacInnis also did it 10 times in a row from 1985 to 1994.

Mark Howe had nine 50-point seasons in a row as well, but I think he was playing some forward at the beginning of that streak.
 
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DoMakc

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shawnmullin

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Jul 20, 2005
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Some or Larsen's regular season stats are fantastic, but it's shocking to see how little he did in the playoffs. Does anyone who remembers watching him have an explanation for that?
 

EagleBelfour

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Jun 7, 2005
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We have a couple of things in mind, but the way coaches are going right now I decided we should get one of the best while he's still an option.

Our bench boss is a man who has been to the Cup finals more than anyone in history. pappy's coach when he won ATD9, the great Coach Dick Irvin Sr.

And there goes my third option. Don't forget he was the coach of the great Detroit Falcons in ATD#10. Yea, we didn't won, but it still was one hell of a team :P

In my opinion, now all the coaches from the first two tier are taken.
 

arrbez

bad chi
Jun 2, 2004
13,352
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Toronto
Inglewood selects their starting goaltender:

Harry Lumley

I figured people will be going after backups soon, so I should grab a good starter while I still could. I'm very happy with Lumley as my guy, especially this late in the game. Led the league in wins twice, and in GAA twice (all in different seasons). He beat out Terry Sawchuk twice at the peak of his game for the First Team Allstar selection. He led the league in shutouts 3 times (two of them being for some pretty mediocre Leaf squads in the 50's). He was excellent in winning the cup with Detroit in 1950, and his GAA is a quarter of a goal lower in the post-season than in regular season play. He was also a tough competitor who didn't take crap from his oponents.


With my second pick, I'll be rounding out my checking line with a two-time Allstar and two-way centre par excellence:

Ken Mosdell

A 4 time Cup Champion with Montreal, Mosdell was their shut-down centre, regularly facing the likes of Schmidt, Apps, Abel, etc. He was a good offensive contributor as well, and when given a chance to play in a scoring role he put up seasons that earned him a first and second place allstar selections in 1954 and 1955. Between Metz and Klukay, I think he'll solidify what should easily be among the best checking lines in the draft.
 
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EagleBelfour

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Ken Mosdell

In my opinion, this guy should be taken at the start of the 300. He's the perfect checking line center if you want your center to do some offensive damage and not only defend. He's perhaps not as good defensively than a Nick Metz or Martin Pavelich, but he'll be more productive offensively than those two.
 
Jul 29, 2003
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He is talked about a lot. Not that talking about hockey history and attempting to rank old players with modern ones on an even playing field is a "mainstream" endeavor, but most mainstream attempts rate him highly (THN top-100, Without Fear, the book you are referring to, anything that looks at Vezinas without realizing context and how they used to be "won") - much too highly, IMO.

For example, go look for two contemporaries who I am sure are better - Roy Worters and Tiny Thompson. You'll find just as little on them. It's just the way it is with older players. Hainsworth, in comparison, doesn't get too little fanfare - he gets too much.

He is what he is. you can't take away the cups, the one potential smythe performance, and the three good regular seasons, two of which were great, as well as the longevity beyond those years (not as a top-2 goalie but usually top-5 up till age 41)

And I knew about his "relaxed" style; I have a great long writeup about it in a book from the 1940s (thanks, Spitfire11 for the recommendation, I bought all three of those old titles that your library has). Based on everything else I knew, I see it as a symptom of the teams he was playing for. Your quotes tell me what I've suspected for a year - There is really no evidence that Hainsworth did anything that a different, average, goalie couldn't have done given the same opportunity.

I would not fault him for not making an easy save look hard - why do that and risk allowing a goal which at the time constituted 65% of the average team's offense? It is not his fault that he had few difficult saves to make, and fewer saves overall in comparison to the other goalies. But that is almost certainly the case, based on the information available to us. And that should not be overlooked.

At at the same time, it's doubtful that guys like Thompson and Worters were diving around and making easy saves look hard. Worters' reputation as a great goalie who always gave his poor teams a chance to win, is well-earned. If his teams only allowed mainly easy shots that he made look hard, then they wouldn't be bad teams, now, would they? But we know they were.

There are other goalies who the same claims could be made about, that all they had to do was show up - Jacques Plante, Ken Dryden, Martin Brodeur, Clint Benedict, to name a few - but they all did enough to stand out individually, to build their longterm legacies.

Did you notice that dreakmur guy who poked his head in here a couple of times? At the Leafs boards he's trying to construct pre-1931 all-star teams. I've been helping him out where I can. Based on stats, hart voting, anecdotes from the Trail, and the defense corps of the different teams, we've agreed that his play was worth a 2nd team berth in 1928 and 1929. That's it. (in 1927 it went to ****** and Benedict, 1928 and 1929 it was Worters/Hainsworth) Take it for what you will. And I am sure you won't take it for much. But I assure you we are attempting to be as objective as we can. Hansworth's legacy gets a lot of mileage out of those three good regular seasons (two of which were great) - too much.

Believe me, I really do feel guilty in a strange way - I have no interest in trashing players at this stage of the game, but my main interest at these boards is to truly get down to the truth about how good all these players were, and when I feel I'm onto something I want to hammer it home. Your turn to pour the kool-aid :P

A lot of this is quite unfair for Hainsworth. He did exactly what you would ask about any goalie, make the save and make it look easy. He got the same criticism back then, hence the quote. There is nothing wrong with being unspectacular, if anything, I prefer it. A lot of the most spectacular saves of all-time happened because, initially, the goaltender either made a mistake, was simply beat, or both. To fault Hainsworth for simply making everything look easy, which is what you should look for in a goaltender, is simply madness.

As for Worters, again you're praising him for being on a bad team and faulting Hainsworth for being on a good one. You say Worters was a great goalie who gave his poor teams a chance to win, but how can Hainsworth have done that if his teams were all quite good? Rather, Hainsworth was a great goalie on a great team, and is it wrong to suggest he was a reason those teams were great. You dodged the comment about Hainsworth being referred to as one of the foundations of those great teams, along with Howie Morenz. So, what's it again, lost in the hype? You've said the top 100 list was just that as well, and again I sincerely doubt it. For "The Montreal Canadiens: 100 Years of Glory", this is maybe debatable, but for a guy who wrote one of the biggest books for the Habs' 100 year anniversary, it's pretty likely the guy did his homework. For the THN top 100 list, these guys are all either respected hockey players and coaches or respected hockey journalists. Of that panel, only Milt Dunnell would've seen him play, but a large majority of the list was one generation away, meaning their parents and grandparents could have seen quite a bit of them. I'm not saying these sources are something to base everything on, that would be quite foolish, but it's just as foolish to say they got lost in the hype and are completely wrong about the guy, when you say different based on what you see on hockey-reference.com.

Also, your basis of judging goaltenders of that era is quite unfair. The stats are flawed somewhat(we'll get to that later), but they're probably the best of your criteria, along with readings from The Trail(which can be very flawed as well), but the other two are incredibly flawed and should have little weight. Hart trophy voting is very flawed, not only because of the lack of it, but of the apparent criteria for voting a goaltender. In that era it seemed that your best bet is to play for a bad team and do well, as Roy Worters did. Hell, even Benedict's best Hart year was on a pathetic team, and when that team got better, so did he, but he didn't get the recognition. Again this is faulting Hainsworth for playing on a good team. Most valuable does not mean best. On a great team, it would be understandably hard for Hainsworth to get Hart recognition. How can he be most valuable on a great offensive team(and probably defensive as well)? This again faults him for playing on a great team. So does taking into account the defense in front of him. Seriously? I can understand it a little, but come on, you're better than that. A lot of goaltenders throughout history have played in front of great defenses(probably a majority of the top 10 did), yet are they any worse for it? No. Like I said, Hainsworth was regarded as more of a building block than any of those guys on his team, save for Morenz.

One of my bigger problems with your arguments is your glaring inconsistancy. When Hainsworth's great GAAs get brought up, GAA is a flawed stat and doesn't nearly explain how good a goalie was/is. Yet, when Hainsworth's GAA wasn't great, you use it against him. Which is it? I, for one, believe it is a flawed stat, but there are certain things you just can't ignore, no matter how flawed those stats are. The best single-season GAA, the second-best all-time GAA, the 22 shutouts, the all-time professional shutouts mark(for now), third-most NHL shutouts despite starting his NHL career at 31 and playing only 465 games(Sawchuk played 971, more than twice as many, and Brodeur played 999). Even when you take the era into account, that's still damn impressive, no matter which way you manipulate stats. Obviously, though, I feel there's more than just that, and all of it points to Hainsworth being much better than you give him credit for. The fact that he's constantly ranked well above his contemporaries, him being a major part of one of the better NHL teams of the late 20s and early 30s, the playoff shutout streak, etc. Like I said, you can manipulate stats all you want and make up all the all-star teams you want, that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that Hainsworth was one of the all-time greats and deserves every bit of the recognition he gets.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,395
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366 - Reds4Life- Trinec Steelers - ON THE CLOCK
367 - camperjr - Edmonton Oilers - asked to be skipped

368 - shawnmullin & pappyline - Trail Smoke Eaters
369 - Hedberg - Victoria Salmon Kings
370 - ChampagneWishes - Killarney Country Bear Jamboree
371 - DoMakc & JohnFlyersFan - Kilkenny Bustards
372 - Jungosi - Wacken Warriors
373 - Zamboni Mania - Colorado Avalanche
374 - papershoes - Kenora Thistles
 

vancityluongo

curse of the strombino
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Jul 8, 2006
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I'm definitely good with 6.

Wouldn't be against 4 either if the rest of you guys want that, but that's a bit harsh right now, IMO.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,395
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camper wants to be skipped, so...

368 - shawnmullin & pappyline - Trail Smoke Eaters - ON THE CLOCK
369 - Hedberg - Victoria Salmon Kings
370 - ChampagneWishes - Killarney Country Bear Jamboree
371 - DoMakc & JohnFlyersFan - Kilkenny Bustards
372 - Jungosi - Wacken Warriors
 

God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
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Bentley reunion
No qualms with six hours.

Do we want to show grace to GMs who have been skipped? That would put Sather on a one-hour clock, and he deserves a lot better than that, since he took over a team, and hasn't been skipped since, despite being on a three-hour clock.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,395
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....since he took over a team, and hasn't been skipped since,...
i dunno if he was co-Gm for a while before being the sole takeover GM, but i know... his team has been skipped once while he was a co-GM... so a minus-one hour seems apt... 6-1= 5 hour clock for his team (reasonable)
 
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