Indy: All-Purpose Non-WWE Discussion Thread -- Part 2 [NJPW G1 Special in San Francisco July 7]

[Kimi]

Sounds about right.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

7 Stars? Is that the max amount of stars?
So many stars!

 

[GKJ]

7 Stars? Is that the max amount of stars?
So many stars!

A year and a half ago we didn’t go past 5, so it’s safe to say that new Japan broke the rating system

 

[ColePens]

I don’t think there’s any doubt anymore imo. He’s 48 and is still reinventing himself.

Flair was the same forever. HBK never reinvented himself. Jericho has reinvented himself so many times and stayed at a high level for so long that there shouldn’t even be a question about it anymore imho

Short response: Jericho's top matches could not even come close to HBK's top matches, IMO.

Longer answer: It's amazing Jericho reinvents himself. I think he's the most creative mind in wrestling's history. Incredible what he's doing in NJPW. And i love these matches are being scored so high. I cannot wait to sit down and watch it this weekend. But while these star ratings are going insane, I honestly do not think a single match in the history of wrestling can touch HBK/Taker at WM25. If someone asked me "What is wrestling?", I'd show them that build, match, etc. The biggest stage, an insanely great match, emotion, storytelling, drama. Even the build is so wrestling. The guy who represents heaven/light is evil. The dead guy who represents darkness is good. The "evil" heavenly guy acts like a heel sneaking around getting the best of a guy who rarely, if ever, was taken the best of. The entrances, the stage, the gear were all awesome. Then the story is HBK doing everything in his power to beat the streak and it costs him at the end.

IMO - there will never be anything that can touch that whole package together. Stage, moment, match, build, wrestlers, etc. Nothing.


Disclaimer: Why i love HF Wrestling and will never leave is because we respect differing opinions. Entertainment is a big part of why i love wrestling. I don't believe a 5-7 star match can happen at a small venue because the stage is an important factor to wrestling. Same with storytelling, promos, etc. I understand people value these differently. I respect that. What I value might not be what you value. So don't beat me up too much. I respect it.

Mad props to NJPW for the wrestling/story aspect of it, but it always leaves me wanting more from a "stage"/"entertainment" perspective. Does this happen to anyone else?

 

[M.C.G. 31]

In response to your short answer @ColePens, I don’t think the difference between Jericho and HBK’s in-ring talent makes up for Jericho’s versatility and ability to constantly reinvent himself and remain fresh. He’s so far ahead of everyone else imho, and he was still an absolutely high-level in-ring performer for a very long time (and still is outside of WWE thanks to reinventing himself as a brawler).

HBK is top-3, but if you held a gun to my head today and told me to name who I thought was the GOAT factoring everything in, I can’t in good conscious not say Chris Jericho.

It’s amazing how he’s almost 50 and has reinvented himself as an elite brawler in his age to remain a top in-ring performer.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Short response: Jericho's top matches could not even come close to HBK's top matches, IMO.

Longer answer: It's amazing Jericho reinvents himself. I think he's the most creative mind in wrestling's history. Incredible what he's doing in NJPW. And i love these matches are being scored so high. I cannot wait to sit down and watch it this weekend. But while these star ratings are going insane, I honestly do not think a single match in the history of wrestling can touch HBK/Taker at WM25. If someone asked me "What is wrestling?", I'd show them that build, match, etc. The biggest stage, an insanely great match, emotion, storytelling, drama. Even the build is so wrestling. The guy who represents heaven/light is evil. The dead guy who represents darkness is good. The "evil" heavenly guy acts like a heel sneaking around getting the best of a guy who rarely, if ever, was taken the best of. The entrances, the stage, the gear were all awesome. Then the story is HBK doing everything in his power to beat the streak and it costs him at the end.

IMO - there will never be anything that can touch that whole package together. Stage, moment, match, build, wrestlers, etc. Nothing.


Disclaimer: Why i love HF Wrestling and will never leave is because we respect differing opinions. Entertainment is a big part of why i love wrestling. I don't believe a 5-7 star match can happen at a small venue because the stage is an important factor to wrestling. Same with storytelling, promos, etc. I understand people value these differently. I respect that. What I value might not be what you value. So don't beat me up too much. I respect it.

Mad props to NJPW for the wrestling/story aspect of it, but it always leaves me wanting more from a "stage"/"entertainment" perspective. Does this happen to anyone else?

I am the same way, because I grew up on WWF and then WCW and ECW. What captivated me is the story/stage/entertainment as well as wrestling, it's why I like the package of wrestling in general. And don't get me wrong, I appreciate NJPW as well and understand why people prefer it over what I prefer, it's just a matter of taste really. I like the crazy and outlandish though too, which WWF has provided over the decades.

If you ever watched Man on the Moon, and the scene where Andy Kaufman watches wrestling as a kid for the first time and becomes enamored with the heel, that's pretty much the exact same scenerio of how I got into it.

As far as Jericho/HBK, I wont argue your point, my personal preference is Jericho just because he is my fave of all time.

 

[SeidoN]

Jericho was my GOAT pre-list, and everything since the list just cements that

 

[M.C.G. 31]

I always went back and forth between Jericho, Flair and HBK, but it’s easily Jericho for me now. Easily. That’s how good he’s been at reinventing himself and changing up his style to still be a high level in-ring performer approaching 50 years old.

Before this run I would have said it’s dumb to “easily” call any of those three the GOAT over one another, but i feel pretty safe in doing so now tbh.

 

[JackSlater]

Jericho and Michaels are two of my three favourite wrestlers ever. Michaels has been number one for basically the duration of my fandom, and Jericho has been top four since 2008. I would say that Michaels is unquestionably the better in ring performer while Jericho is unqquestionably the better promo. I definitely have Jericho up there in terms of creativity, possibly the best ever. I don't see his various reinventions as a big edge over someone like Michaels though. First off, Michaels did reinvent himself. There is a difference between early 90s Michaels and then heavyweight champion Michaels, there was a clear reinvention when Michaels made DX and then another large reinvention in Michaels when he came back in 2002. I don't see it as a big factor though. Jericho deserves credit for reinventing himself successfully, but Michaels didn't really need to reinvent himself. Since this is a hockey forum I would compare it to Yzerman and Lemieux. Yzerman is my favourite player ever and has one of the most notable reinventions ever as he went from an offensive force who could score 155 points in a season to a Selke winner, while Mario Lemieux basically never reinvented himself. Lemieux was still comfortably better though and he didn't need to reinvent himself.

Unrelated, but Meltzer also killed off his own rating system. There needs to be a maximum for it to have meaning outside of good and bad. It's just his opinion obviously and he is entitled to it but it looks ridiculous to have seven stars at this point.

 

[GKJ]

I could see if you went to 5 1/4 first and increment that way if something is that much of a standout that it’s one of the 3 or 4 best matches you ever seen. Going from 6 to 7 like that starts making it look like a gimmick

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Personally think Meltzer is losing his mind just a bit.

But yeah he turned his own star rating into trash and made it a gimmick now. Like... just call it 5 stars and the GOAT match ever if it’s so far ahead of Taker/HNK WM or HIAC, or Austin/Bret or whatever.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Jericho has a fantastic wrestling mind, but he was never crisp enough for my taste (I mean, he’s still in my ~20 favorites, but I just don’t think he’s the best). The lack of perfect refinement can lend itself to brawling, so his transition into this new character has been great.

When it comes to the wrestlers who could play any role on a card on any continent and excel in it, I think he gives Eddie Guerrero a run for his money. So maybe not the best, but maybe the most interesting. He’s like Forrest Gump in that he somehow has touched a lot of the more significant parts of wrestling across the past 25 years or so.

In hockey terms, he’s Mark Messier with ~1900 career points, two MVP seasons, but no scoring titles - consistently relevant and sometimes excellent, but a reasonably achievable high-water-mark. Meanwhile, Omega/Okada are having 200-point seasons.

 

[Paris in Flames]

I firmly believe Jericho is the best wrestler of our lifetime. He was never the best in the ring but there's not one wrestling element he didn't excel at. Nobody brings as large a package and nobody in the world can constantly reinvent themselves and make it work. You'll find guys who are/were better in the ring. You might even find guys better overall as a character/mic but you won't find a guy who does each and everyone so well COMBINED.

Straight up. Chris Jericho is the GOAT.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Personally, I have no problem with the star rating system. The bar is being raised. It’s hard to do a cinema equivalent since the industry hasn’t evolved as much in our lifetimes (1927 introducing talkies is hardly relatable in casual message board conversation), but look at video games:

Flair/Steamboat is Super Mario 3. It holds up. It is perfect. It is *****. But in the time since it came out, the scope of what a video game can be has changed. If you sent Ricochet back to 1989 with a copy of Bioshock, they’d think he was a witch.

***** works up until the differentiation of things at the extreme ends of the spectrum. Okada/Omega hit the high end hard. Three times. Easier to break the scale than retroactively adjust everyone down, because Flair/Steamboat couldn’t help it anymore than Nintendo could; the art form wasn’t there yet.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

I firmly believe Jericho is the best wrestler of our lifetime. He was never the best in the ring but there's not one wrestling element he didn't excel at. Nobody brings as large a package and nobody in the world can constantly reinvent themselves and make it work. You'll find guys who are/were better in the ring. You might even find guys better overall as a character/mic but you won't find a guy who does each and everyone so well COMBINED.

Straight up. Chris Jericho is the GOAT.

I think Edge can go into this category too. He’s not Jericho level, but everyone praises his mind for the business and ability to think of new things when he was running hot and pushing things. He was good in the ring, he was excellent on the mic and character wise and could have you invested. Unfortunately he was more injury prone and didn’t have the longevity of Jericho, so Edge is lower, but I think you can make a case for Edge as a top-15 or 20 total package in history, maybe even higher. Edge’s longevity goes against him here though, as he had less opportunity to really reinvent himself whereas Jericho has had nearly 30 active years and has never had a serious injury.

Jericho’s longevity is another thing that really helps his case as the GOAT.

 

[GKJ]

Jericho is definitely the greatest mind we’ve seen and that’s taken him a long way.

 

[Lunatik]

Mad props to NJPW for the wrestling/story aspect of it, but it always leaves me wanting more from a "stage"/"entertainment" perspective. Does this happen to anyone else?

I feel exactly the same way. I enjoy NJPW when I watch it, but I prefer WWE for that very reason.

 

[Morozov]

It all boils down to what you like. Japan presents things more real, like it is a sport. I like that more. If you start putting in more of the "entertainment" element then it wouldn't be what it is anymore.

However, many people also only tune in occasionally to the Japanese stuff so don't really get invested in the story elements as much either, like someone who just watches a couple of big WWE shows a year they won't pick up the "entertainment" elements as much.

 

[GKJ]

One issue people will find with new Japan is that the stories are very long. This thing with Omega is basically 2 1/2 years in the making. People who hear about a match and want to watch to match just will not get the full gravity of the storyline.

You’re not getting that in WWE.

 

[Kimi]

The groups for G1 have been announced:

A Block:
Togi Makabe
Michael Elgin
Hiroshi Tanahashi
Kazuchika Okada
Jay White
YOSHI-HASHI
Bad Luck Fale
Hangman Page
EVIL
Minoru Suzuki

B Block:
Juice Robinson
Hirooki Goto
Tomohiro Ishii
Toru Yano
Tama Tonga
SANADA
Tetsuya Naito
Zack Sabre Jr.
Kenny Omega
Kota Ibushi


The shows will be from 14th July to August 12th. There'll also be English commentary for every show, instead of just a few days if you want that.

 

[GKJ]

Omega vs. Ibushi

 

[SeidoN]

Omega vs. Ibushi

I hope they have a friendly match, but Ibushi wins planting a seed

 

[Kimi]

I'm thinking Sabre Jr. beats Omega for a match later.

 

[SeidoN]

I'm thinking Sabre Jr. beats Omega for a match later.

also wouldnt be bad

lets just have Omega lose to everyone to plant ALL the seeds (for Omega/Yano at WK13)

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Ibushi should win vs. Kenny and be the cause of Omega not winning the block, and Ibushi loses in the finals to set up WK13, but then plant seeds for Kenny vs. Ibushi around Dominion next year.