Confirmed with Link: All-Purpose Coyotes Arena Talk: Land Auction Date Set - 6/27

[Kai Yo T]

I can't understand why anyone would blame the Tempe voter for all of this. It's a really selective and short-sighted take.

The Tempe voter said no to a rich guy's sports franchise that:

• Has been a relocation risk for +/- 20 years
• Had a messy relationship with the City of Glendale that ended up with the city kicking them to the curb.
• Needed tens of millions of dollars in welfare from the City of Glendale to survive.
• The owner wasn't paying his bills to vendors, the City of Glendale, or even his state taxes.
• Etc., etc., etc.

I think voting no was quite prudent. I wouldn't want to have a business relationship with the Coyotes and I'm a fan. No trust that anything they say will actually work out as they say. No trust, no faith.

No one cared that it was a landfill. They cared about the high risk of getting screwed because of all the red flags. They were probably smart for voting no, definitely not stupid.

 

[Dead Coyote]

I can't understand why anyone would blame the Tempe voter for all of this. It's a really selective and short-sighted take.

The Tempe voter said no to a rich guy's sports franchise that:

• Has been a relocation risk for +/- 20 years
• Had a messy relationship with the City of Glendale that ended up with the city kicking them to the curb.
• Needed tens of millions of dollars in welfare from the City of Glendale to survive.
• The owner wasn't paying his bills to vendors, the City of Glendale, or even his state taxes.
• Etc., etc., etc.

I think voting no was quite prudent. I wouldn't want to have a business relationship with the Coyotes and I'm a fan. No trust that anything they say will actually work out as they say. No trust, no faith.

No one cared that it was a landfill. They cared about the high risk of getting screwed because of all the red flags. They were probably smart for voting no, definitely not stupid.

This only tracks if you have some other way of dealing with the landfill before it becomes a problem (which it arguably already is).

Tempe voted no for the sake of voting no, they didn't vote no because they didn't trust AM, they didn't even bother to do a modicum of research on him. The Tempe NO campaign RAN on misinformation about him.

I'm sure there were probably some people who voted because they knew about Meruelo's bullshit and would rather have the dump sit there and burn for 30 more years, but that by far was not the majority.

 

[Kai Yo T]

This only tracks if you have some other way of dealing with the landfill before it becomes a problem (which it arguably already is).

They'll deal with the landfill on their own dime without getting into a very long term, high risk business deal with someone they don't trust and that has a history of burning the people that do work with them. I'm sure they weren't thrilled with the possibility of being Glendale 2.0.

Tempe voted no for the sake of voting no, they didn't vote no because they didn't trust AM, they didn't even bother to do a modicum of research on him. The Tempe NO campaign RAN on misinformation about him.

Maybe. But I have no doubt that they didn't trust AM.

All they've heard is negativity about the team in the media over the last 20 years and that's all they needed to hear. It's probably better for AM if they didn't do any research because even the truth is all unsavory.

The levels of disgust the average person here in Arizonan has built up for the Coyotes over the years can't be understated. It's all pretty well deserved too, unfortunately.

I'm sure there were probably some people who voted because they knew about Meruelo's bullshit and would rather have the dump sit there and burn for 30 more years, but that by far was not the majority.

They'll pay to clear it up on their own and then sell the land to someone they have faith in. Until then that piece of land keeps increasing in value, especially since there's not a whole lot of land left in Tempe. Maybe they could've profited more with AM's ED, but they also had a lot more to lose if he screwed them.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Anyways, my only point is that the reason Tempe overwhelmingly voted no is not because they were stupid or uneducated. There really was a lot of risk. People are STILL doubting AM's capabilities.

 

[Jagged Ice]

Chicago Bears told to 'pay for their own damn stadium' after proposal has taxpayers footing $2 billion

State officials don't believe that Illinois taxpayers will be up for paying more than $2 billion for the Chicago Bears' new stadium, multiple outlets reported.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Dead Coyote]

They'll deal with the landfill on their own dime

They'll pay to clear it up on their own and then sell the land to someone they have faith in. Until then that piece of land keeps increasing in value.

lol, lmao even

It's been how many years, has there been even a single proposal to do something with that land? No.

That land has no value. Literally zero. Zilch. Nada. None. And it never will until it's remediated. Which will cost millions that nobody is going to want to pay for, least of all tax payers. No developer is going to buy that land, remediate it, and then...what? What is it going to be used for? Can't use it for apartments, so what else is left? An arena? A casino? An entertainment district? Who the f*** is going to buy it and remediate it for those purposes? Nobody, that's who. The only hope is that the city grows enough that it's not so out of the way and the city takes whatever it costs to remediate themselves, hoping that the sale will outstrip the debt they had to take on.

I see that about as likely as Meruelo growing wings and proclaiming himself the sun god Apollo.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Anyways, my only point is that the reason Tempe overwhelmingly voted no is not because they were stupid or uneducated. There really was a lot of risk. People are STILL doubting AM's capabilities.

Oh, absolutely. But if you have the slightest indication that you're getting a free remediation, you take that all the way to the bank. You can force Meruelo out after that if he's being his usual self.

 

[Kai Yo T]

lol, lmao even

It's been how many years, has there been even a single proposal to do something with that land? No.

That land has no value. Literally zero. Zilch. Nada. None. And it never will until it's remediated. Which will cost millions that nobody is going to want to pay for, least of all tax payers. No developer is going to buy that land, remediate it, and then...what? What is it going to be used for? Can't use it for apartments, so what else is left? An arena? A casino? An entertainment district? Who the f*** is going to buy it and remediate it for those purposes? Nobody, that's who. The only hope is that the city grows enough that it's not so out of the way and the city takes whatever it costs to remediate themselves, hoping that the sale will outstrip the debt they had to take on.

I see that about as likely as Meruelo growing wings and proclaiming himself the sun god Apollo.

Well, I'd imagine that the reason there's been no proposals on the land is because it needs to be remediated before it becomes attractive to other buyers and has actual value.

I'm under the impression that once the land is remediated anything can be built on it. Maybe I'm wrong?

And like I said the team cost Glendale a lot of money in the long run and I still think that the Coyotes past history had a LOT to do with the voters voting no. Never said it was the only reason.

 

[Mosby]

It’s probably too truthful that if your team requires hotels and restaurants and all these other things in order to survive, then maybe the team isn’t viable and shouldn’t exist. There are plenty of other examples in southern states that don’t require all of these other things in order for the hockey team to be profitable like Dallas and Vegas.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Well, I'd imagine that the reason there's been no proposals on the land is because it needs to be remediated before it becomes attractive to other buyers and has actual value.

I'm under the impression that once the land is remediated anything can be built on it. Maybe I'm wrong?

Anyways, I still think that the Coyotes past history had a LOT to do with the voters voting no. Never said it was the only reason.

Yes, it has to be remediated before anything is built on it. And yes, as far as I know you can technically build anything on it once you do that. Now, that is going to cost in the double digits of millions at minimum to do, take at least a year, and the location isn't particularly good. You have to give people a reason to come there...and I highly doubt there are a lot of business owners looking to invest in a pretty shit location where they also have to spend millions to even get it ready to build on. Maybe if you build a huge amount of apartments people will be happy to drive to Lindon Park to get all their shit, or farther to somewhere else, but it doesn't seem like a winning recipe. The cost of remediation alone is going to put off most developers.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Yes, it has to be remediated before anything is built on it. And yes, as far as I know you can technically build anything on it once you do that. Now, that is going to cost in the double digits of millions at minimum to do, take at least a year, and the location isn't particularly good. You have to give people a reason to come there...and I highly doubt there are a lot of business owners looking to invest in a pretty shit location where they also have to spend millions to even get it ready to build on. Maybe if you build a huge amount of apartments people will be happy to drive to Lindon Park to get all their shit, or farther to somewhere else, but it doesn't seem like a winning recipe. The cost of remediation alone is going to put off most developers.

I don't care about the free remediation. Doing business with the wrong person can be a disaster and the Coyotes history is... a disaster.

 

[TheLegend]

The estimate for cleaning out the landfill was $100-120 million. Allowing for interest on the bonds pushes it closer to $150 million.

That does not include the added costs of the shoring up of Tempe Town Lake because the landfill runs in close proximity of it.

 

[TheLegend]

I don't care about the free remediation. Doing business with the wrong person can be a disaster and the Coyotes history is... a disaster.

TED had a ton of protections built in just for that reason.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

A lot of you No apologists have too much faith in a city government to commit to spending 9 figures to clean up a dirty site.

I'm betting it's still there as is in 20 years. Anyone wanna take the bet?


Edit: look I get people are mad at AM..but 3000 people who voted...if they had voted the other way, we're not having this conversation because things are proceeding as planned, 1 year later.

 

[Kai Yo T]

TED had a ton of protections built in just for that reason.

And the voter didn't buy it, probably because it sounded like it was all too good to be true, coming from a guy with a bad reputation in AZ that they didn't trust.

 

[Dead Coyote]

I don't care about the free remediation. Doing business with the wrong person can be a disaster and the Coyotes history is... a disaster. Snake oil samples are usually free to starrt too.

Sure, but as we saw with Glendale contracts are more of a suggestion than super important legally binding. The city doesn't, and probably won't ever, have the money to do remediation itself. There's not a business owner in existence who is going to take the cost of remediation on themselves. The land itself isn't even worth that much once it has been remediated. The ideal thing would be for Tempe to remediate it themselves, yes. The likelihood of that happening is close to zero. So it's going to sit as a dump for a very, very long time until that happens. That's the nature of having something that is a bad asset. To get rid of it,, you're going to have to deal with people who are willing to and able to take it on. Not many of those people exist, and about zero of them have any interest in doing business for free.

 

[Kai Yo T]

Sure, but as we saw with Glendale contracts are more of a suggestion than super important legally binding. The city doesn't, and probably won't ever, have the money to do remediation itself. There's not a business owner in existence who is going to take the cost of remediation on themselves. The land itself isn't even worth that much once it has been remediated. The ideal thing would be for Tempe to remediate it themselves, yes. The likelihood of that happening is close to zero. So it's going to sit as a dump for a very, very long time until that happens. That's the nature of having something that is a bad asset. To get rid of it,, you're going to have to deal with people who are willing to and able to take it on. Not many of those people exist, and about zero of them have any interest in doing business for free.

My first post was about the lack of trust & faith Tempe voters had in AM being a big factor in why Tempe voted no. And that's the Coyotes fault, not the voter's. That's all. I think it's a valid concern when I take out my Coyote fan Bias.

 

[TheLegend]

And the voter didn't buy it, probably because it sounded like it was all too good to be true, coming from a guy with a bad reputation in AZ that they didn't trust.

They didn’t like the tax breaks. After 99% of the other projects around the lake got them they were fed up.

They didn’t want a high end Scottsdale-esque project when the need was more middle-to-low end housing.

That’s not me saying that. That’s the people who were exit polled about it. Not one of them mentioned Meruelo.

 

[Kai Yo T]

They didn’t like the tax breaks. After 99% of the other projects around the lake got them they were fed up.

They didn’t want a high end Scottsdale-esque project when the need was more middle-to-low end housing.

That’s not me saying that. That’s the people who were exit polled about it. Not one of them mentioned Meruelo.

Ok then. I'll give in. 20 years of negativity and welfare had nothing to do with it, because the exit polls didn't say so and the voters never heard any of the negativity over the years.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

That’s not me saying that. That’s the people who were exit polled about it. Not one of them mentioned Meruelo.

Exactly. They had no idea who he was. They just fell victim to the No campaigns propaganda of "here's your chance to not let a rich guy get richer!"

 

[TheLegend]

Ok then. I'll give in. 20 years of negativity had nothing to do with it, because the exit polls didn't say so.

I’m talking about people who were asked on camera why they voted no.

If the other three pro teams were to try something similar it would get the same results.

The current theme park district law was drafted solely with the Diamondbacks in mind yet Ken Kendricks read the room and decided not to use it.

 

[Kai Yo T]

I'm still not convinced that the Tempe voters were dumb for not voting yes. Time will tell.

 

[LAIslanderFan]

In regards to the TED project and the "failings" of Meruelo losing out to the Vote No group,
everyone seems to have forgotten how many issues the City Of Phoenix and the Airport Authority caused. AM was going up against more than the Vote No group. I remember reports almost daily in the print media, digital media and online media with constant attacks directed towards TED from the CIty of Phoenix the same entity that helped pay for the Footprint upgrades. Go ahead and Google it, your head will spin !
If you don't think that had any affect on the vote, you're kidding yourself. That was just more drama piled on top of everything else.

 

[LAIslanderFan]

It’s probably too truthful that if your team requires hotels and restaurants and all these other things in order to survive, then maybe the team isn’t viable and shouldn’t exist. There are plenty of other examples in southern states that don’t require all of these other things in order for the hockey team to be profitable like Dallas and Vegas.

That's a bad example.

Actually the tax payers paid for the Dallas arena (like Utah) and MGM and AEG build the Vegas arena as part of the New York New York Property (it's a venue for MGM properties) .
Plans are to add a shopping district.

I think if tax payers agreed to pay for an arena in the Phoenix area like they are in Utah, the Coyotes would have remained in AZ. I guess in Utah the taxpayers are more open to subsidizing a billionaire. I'm not sure if that's a good thing?

 

[lanky]

I'm not sure if that's a good thing?

I wouldn't want to pay more tax to support a billionaire. Even if it meant keeping or gaining a team. Obviously the topic requires some nuance, since tax-increment-financing is very different from direct funding.