All Purpose Analytics and Extended Stats Discussion

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
13,730
14,648
I don't think it's as significant a difference as you do. Was he extremely lucky earlier in the year? Does that affect your calculations and expectations?

And as I said, PDO is ASSUMED to measure luck. It's not actually a measure of luck. It could easily measure "miscellaneous factors" that could include a player's actions, changes in behavior, or just about anything.

Even your corisica egf formula is incomplete and suspect for various reasons, not the least of which is the exclusion of blocked shots and the assumption that shots from closer range increase goal chances in an improving, non-linear manner. In REAL LIFE, not Stat-land, proximity to the goaltender also cuts down on your angle if the goaltender is in position for the shot. So a 10 foot shot may actually have less net open than a 15 foot shot depending on where the goaltender is. How far is the goaltender out of position laterally on the shot? Is that accounted for, and wouldn't just one or two goals like that make a big difference over 20 games? Are all rebounds weighted equally, even though some never have a chance of going in while others are tap ins? Once again, we're using a functionally oversimiplified (however algorithmically complex) shot-based stat manipulation to try and explain a complex game full of unquantifiable factors.

To try and project expected goals for 20 games based on that formula, and cite that as proof that PDO is correct, is folly. You use his career average to prove this, which is also a small sample size that includes his "hot" period earlier in the year as a heavily weighted portion of the available data.

Overall your logic is going like this:

It's luck
How do you know?
Because PDO says so
How can you prove it's really luck?
Because PDO measures luck

That's circular. Especially since you're assuming the differences in stats that comprise a PDO calculation are explained by luck, but you say "specific evidence to suggest he only had poor quality shots" are required to knock you off your bad luck stance. So you assume one intangible thing (luck via PDO) but reject another immeasurable (that you at least try to account for, however imperfectly, and only when it backs your argument).

So change the word from "luck" to "variance" if you want to account for miscellaneous factors, it doesn't change the argument. The fact is PDO is highly variable and inconsistent across pretty much every NHLer and except for very extreme cases, most players have PDOs that fall between 99 and 101 over their careers. Prolonged stretches of PDOs outside of these numbers simply don't last. I'm willing to guess that Kuznetsov's will not remain at 96, despite txpd saying maybe he's just a hard-luck player.

And while using his career average, it also included his cold streak. I didn't selectively decide to ignore his cold streak when looking at his career shooting percentage, similar to how it would be silly to ignore a goalie's cold streak when looking at his save percentage.

At this point I have no faith in your ability to even approach statistics from a rational standpoint. You're talking about the expected goal formula like it was just plucked out of thin air instead of constructed based on past data (which it was). No, it's not perfect. Nothing ever will be. But just because a formula/measure is incomplete doesn't mean it's not useful.

It's an interesting double standard because while the eye-test cannot fail (despite it being subject to huge amounts of bias and other factors such as not being able to feasibly watch every single game of every single player in the NHL), if a statistical model is created and it doesn't 100% account for every small factor then it is completely null and void in your eyes.
 

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
13,730
14,648
You're missing the point. The point was that they did not overreact to bad luck in making the change. They were scoring before the losing streak, yes, but when the streak hit that dried up. Worse, they were also giving up way too many goals even before the streak, and doing so pretty consistently (what was their GAA prior to the streak?)

The offensive system had stagnated at that point and BB and GMGM overreacted to a month of leaking goals (via the 3-headed goaltending monster of Neuvirth, Varly and Holtby and a suspect defense, iirc). In the 14 games that November they were 10-2-2 but it was fool's gold as they gave up 3 or more in 11 of them (and 6 of 8 during the losing streak). Anyone not blinded by the standings could see there was a problem, mostly in net but also with team defense.

BB and GMGM were right to make a correction but they went too far in the opposite direction, most likely.

I'm with you that their defense and goaltending was likely not good or even adequate (GAA before the streak was 2.62, during the streak was 3.38, after the streak was 1.94), but I don't think that necessitated a change to entire offensive system as well. Boudreau didn't have good overall talent in goal or on defense for basically his entire tenure. Kolzig, a brief flash of Huet, Jose Theodore, Brent Johnson, Michal Neuvirth, young Varlamov, first pairing Shaone Morrisonn, etc. It seemed like a very clear example of inadequate talent on the backup rather than something systemically wrong.
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,632
14,727
So change the word from "luck" to "variance" if you want to account for miscellaneous factors, it doesn't change the argument. The fact is PDO is highly variable and inconsistent across pretty much every NHLer and except for very extreme cases, most players have PDOs that fall between 99 and 101 over their careers. Prolonged stretches of PDOs outside of these numbers simply don't last. I'm willing to guess that Kuznetsov's will not remain at 96, despite txpd saying maybe he's just a hard-luck player.

And while using his career average, it also included his cold streak. I didn't selectively decide to ignore his cold streak when looking at his career shooting percentage, similar to how it would be silly to ignore a goalie's cold streak when looking at his save percentage.

At this point I have no faith in your ability to even approach statistics from a rational standpoint. You're talking about the expected goal formula like it was just plucked out of thin air instead of constructed based on past data (which it was). No, it's not perfect. Nothing ever will be. But just because a formula/measure is incomplete doesn't mean it's not useful.

It's an interesting double standard because while the eye-test cannot fail (despite it being subject to huge amounts of bias and other factors such as not being able to feasibly watch every single game of every single player in the NHL), if a statistical model is created and it doesn't 100% account for every small factor then it is completely null and void in your eyes.

It absolutely does change the argument. Are you reading what I'm writing because I've talked about all of these things several times. Luck implies the player is not at fault. Variance can be anything, including the way the player is playing and so forth. If we don't know what it is then we don't know what it is. Calling it one thing when we have no real proof isn't scientific or statistically sound.

There's a reason PDO stays around 100...it's crap. It's generally a statistical washout of basic O and D stats that only really shows blips that again you ASSUME are due to "luck". The entire premise is flawed.

Where did I say the "eye test" cannot fail? Don't put words in my mouth based on your own biases about anyone who disagrees with your approach to statistics. You're just making things up and cherrypicking what you want to believe based on your biases toward the infallibility of stats (despite disclaimers) and uselessness of "intangibles" and/or defensive play that can't be measuresd. This is what you say here, not something I need to make up.

I value stats but not stat abuse. Even the professionals and creators of these stats warn against the kind of over-reliance you're falling into, so I'm not just dumping on your contortions for no reason.
 

eperry

Registered User
Jun 27, 2016
64
9
Even your corisica egf formula is incomplete and suspect for various reasons, not the least of which is the exclusion of blocked shots and the assumption that shots from closer range increase goal chances in an improving, non-linear manner. In REAL LIFE, not Stat-land, proximity to the goaltender also cuts down on your angle if the goaltender is in position for the shot. So a 10 foot shot may actually have less net open than a 15 foot shot depending on where the goaltender is. How far is the goaltender out of position laterally on the shot? Is that accounted for, and wouldn't just one or two goals like that make a big difference over 20 games? Are all rebounds weighted equally, even though some never have a chance of going in while others are tap ins? Once again, we're using a functionally oversimiplified (however algorithmically complex) shot-based stat manipulation to try and explain a complex game full of unquantifiable factors.

I can tell you haven't read the article detailing the shot quality model so I won't waste too much time.

A) Distance and angle are covariants in the xG regression. They are both 3rd-degree polynomials and decidedly nonlinear. Those parameters aren't arbitrarily chosen – they're selected to optimize predictions on real out-of-sample shots.

B) Even if you were right about which factors I ignored, your argument is that incomplete or imperfect modelling is worthless. The world is a chaotic place, but we don't use our gut to model the behaviour of quantum particles, we use science. Nothing worth modelling with statistical methods can be summarized in a single algorithm, but we still produce actionable results. Funny how that works.
 

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
13,730
14,648
It absolutely does change the argument. Are you reading what I'm writing because I've talked about all of these things several times. Luck implies the player is not at fault. Variance can be anything, including the way the player is playing and so forth. If we don't know what it is then we don't know what it is. Calling it one thing when we have no real proof isn't scientific or statistically sound.

I've mentioned several times that I'm not interested in what it's called, I'm interested in what it means and the implications regarding Kuznetsov.

He had a very poor run in terms of PDO. This is a fact. Historically, a player's PDO does not stay that low. This is a fact. And assuming shot attempt differential stays the same (or increases, in Kuznetsov's case), a rebound in PDO means an increase in goal differential. This is a fact.

So in order for me to worry about Kuznetsov, you have to make the argument that either Kuznetsov's PDO will remain historically low, or you have to argue that Kuznetsov will suddenly transform into a poor possession player despite his possession metrics actually increasing as the season went on (and into the playoffs, in fact). Even if the REASONS revolve around intangibles or unquantifiable things, these would as a consequence be reflected in the statistics.

There's a reason PDO stays around 100...it's crap. It's generally a statistical washout of basic O and D stats that only really shows blips that again you ASSUME are due to "luck". The entire premise is flawed.

PDO isn't crap, it's a number. Indeed, it has very little predictive power. The PDO statistic in one game, in general, has nothing to do with the next game. It's not flawed, only its interpretation can be flawed.

I interpret it as describing puck-luck. "Puck-luck" doesn't mean it is out of a player's control, but it does mean that there is expected variance with any play and sometimes the result is good and sometimes it is bad. You can pick your spot with a shot, do everything exactly the same as you always do in terms of mechanics, etc., and have two different results. Slight variations in the ice surface could cause the puck to go into the corner of the net or off the post and wide. Is this under a player's control? Well, technically yes. But in practice there are far too many variables to account for as a player and sometimes these variables work in your favor (Kuznetsov's goal in the playoffs) and sometimes they don't (hitting posts, pucks bouncing on an uneven ice surface).

These variables that are unreasonable to control even out over time. For every time something like that hurts you (or helps), statistically speaking these unreasonable to control factors affect the opposition at extremely similar rates over time.

The value of PDO (and its individual components) is using it to help explain past results. Nick Foligno had a career year in 2014-15, and also an enormous PDO. A smart front office would have seen that his stats were fueled by high amounts of circumstances that were unreasonable for him to control. Instead they gave him a long term contract that they immediately regretted.

Similarly, Alex Ovechkin's -35 season in 2013-14 was widely panned by mainstream media members, but he also had a 96.5 PDO for the season (further proof that poor PDOs can last an entire season, but they still don't last indefinitely). Was he really costing the Capitals about half a goal a game at even strength? Hell no. There were many things that were unreasonable for him to control that worked against him for most of the season.

I'm just a random guy on the Internet. But by saying PDO is worthless basically ***** on the opinion of well respected members of the analytics community who find it (and other measures of "puck-luck") valuable.

Where did I say the "eye test" cannot fail? Don't put words in my mouth based on your own biases about anyone who disagrees with your approach to statistics. You're just making things up and cherrypicking what you want to believe based on your biases toward the infallibility of stats (despite disclaimers) and uselessness of "intangibles" and/or defensive play that can't be measuresd. This is what you say here, not something I need to make up.

I value stats but not stat abuse. Even the professionals and creators of these stats warn against the kind of over-reliance you're falling into, so I'm not just dumping on your contortions for no reason.

In the past, your arguments have boiled down to almost exclusively subjective eye test arguments (specifically in defense of Wilson and Orpik). When these eye test arguments are directly contradicted by an analytic argument, it's always the analytic argument that is wrong. This inane PDO argument is a perfect example.

And when you argue that PDO is "crap" despite a long list of prominent analytics members (and almost certainly many NHL front office members) showing and applying its usefulness, it's really difficult to take you seriously when you say you "value stats".
 
Last edited:

Corby78

65 - 10 - 20
Jan 14, 2014
11,771
7,980
Ramstein Germany
I can tell you haven't read the article detailing the shot quality model so I won't waste too much time.

A) Distance and angle are covariants in the xG regression. They are both 3rd-degree polynomials and decidedly nonlinear. Those parameters aren't arbitrarily chosen – they're selected to optimize predictions on real out-of-sample shots.

B) Even if you were right about which factors I ignored, your argument is that incomplete or imperfect modelling is worthless. The world is a chaotic place, but we don't use our gut to model the behaviour of quantum particles, we use science. Nothing worth modelling with statistical methods can be summarized in a single algorithm, but we still produce actionable results. Funny how that works.

I really hate this post. Every hockey stat needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Outside actual goals, each stat is subjective and filled with error. We really need to stop pretending were baseball.
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,632
14,727
I can tell you haven't read the article detailing the shot quality model so I won't waste too much time.

A) Distance and angle are covariants in the xG regression. They are both 3rd-degree polynomials and decidedly nonlinear. Those parameters aren't arbitrarily chosen – they're selected to optimize predictions on real out-of-sample shots.

B) Even if you were right about which factors I ignored, your argument is that incomplete or imperfect modelling is worthless. The world is a chaotic place, but we don't use our gut to model the behaviour of quantum particles, we use science. Nothing worth modelling with statistical methods can be summarized in a single algorithm, but we still produce actionable results. Funny how that works.

Actually I did read the description of the stat from the website that produces it, which is where my information came from, and I think you know that based on your caveats in part B. I know what they're supposed to do and understand the concepts. Do you understand what I said about the goaltender angles and position? Does the formula account for that? No, it doesn't. So let's not pretend it does.

I never said imperfect modeling is worthless in general, I said stat abuse is going on. PDO is crap because it's flawed in its basic premise, which also has very basic stats as its foundation. Too many assumptions and leaps. The shot quality stat measures what it measures. Again (do you guys read?) I'm OK with stats but NOT stat ABUSE. All stats are not worthless, but analysis that incorrectly applies stats to mean things they don't actually mean is suspect at the very least and worthless in the extreme.

Delving deeply into the world of advanced stats one finds online does not make one a serious scientist. Quantum physicists theorize and postulate, but when they do so they often rely on inspiration or "gut" impressions for epiphanies. The periodic table was seen in a dream. Einstein solved many problems with his imagination, or via flashes of insight. Countless others have happened upon a revelation based on some chance observation. The data informs the impressions and the impressions can steer them toward correct/new angles for studies. But the good ones never confuse the two.
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,632
14,727
I've mentioned several times that I'm not interested in what it's called, I'm interested in what it means and the implications regarding Kuznetsov.

He had a very poor run in terms of PDO. This is a fact. Historically, a player's PDO does not stay that low. This is a fact. And assuming shot attempt differential stays the same (or increases, in Kuznetsov's case), a rebound in PDO means an increase in goal differential. This is a fact.

So in order for me to worry about Kuznetsov, you have to make the argument that either Kuznetsov's PDO will remain historically low, or you have to argue that Kuznetsov will suddenly transform into a poor possession player despite his possession metrics actually increasing as the season went on (and into the playoffs, in fact). Even if the REASONS revolve around intangibles or unquantifiable things, these would as a consequence be reflected in the statistics.



PDO isn't crap, it's a number. Indeed, it has very little predictive power. The PDO statistic in one game, in general, has nothing to do with the next game. It's not flawed, only its interpretation can be flawed.

I interpret it as describing puck-luck. "Puck-luck" doesn't mean it is out of a player's control, but it does mean that there is expected variance with any play and sometimes the result is good and sometimes it is bad. You can pick your spot with a shot, do everything exactly the same as you always do in terms of mechanics, etc., and have two different results. Slight variations in the ice surface could cause the puck to go into the corner of the net or off the post and wide. Is this under a player's control? Well, technically yes. But in practice there are far too many variables to account for as a player and sometimes these variables work in your favor (Kuznetsov's goal in the playoffs) and sometimes they don't (hitting posts, pucks bouncing on an uneven ice surface).

These variables that are unreasonable to control even out over time. For every time something like that hurts you (or helps), statistically speaking these unreasonable to control factors affect the opposition at extremely similar rates over time.

The value of PDO (and its individual components) is using it to help explain past results. Nick Foligno had a career year in 2014-15, and also an enormous PDO. A smart front office would have seen that his stats were fueled by high amounts of circumstances that were unreasonable for him to control. Instead they gave him a long term contract that they immediately regretted.

Similarly, Alex Ovechkin's -35 season in 2013-14 was widely panned by mainstream media members, but he also had a 96.5 PDO for the season (further proof that poor PDOs can last an entire season, but they still don't last indefinitely). Was he really costing the Capitals about half a goal a game at even strength? Hell no. There were many things that were unreasonable for him to control that worked against him for most of the season.

I'm just a random guy on the Internet. But by saying PDO is worthless basically ***** on the opinion of well respected members of the analytics community who find it (and other measures of "puck-luck") valuable.



In the past, your arguments have boiled down to almost exclusively subjective eye test arguments (specifically in defense of Wilson and Orpik). When these eye test arguments are directly contradicted by an analytic argument, it's always the analytic argument that is wrong. This inane PDO argument is a perfect example.

And when you argue that PDO is "crap" despite a long list of prominent analytics members (and almost certainly many NHL front office members) showing and applying its usefulness, it's really difficult to take you seriously when you say you "value stats".

Well not everything is as easy as looking up stats online. So if it's too difficult to look at hockey analysis that isn't just statistical number shuffling, I don't know what to tell you. The fact that you don't or can't grasp the importance of the difference between "variables" and "luck" when discussing a player is not a credit to objectivity or thoroughness of analysis. And I don't care which other stat-heads you rely on for validation because that's self-affirmation within that community. It's shouting in a barrel. For every Foligno you cite I'm sure there are several exceptions or counter-examples that will be ignored. That's the way stat abuse works.

As for your assessment of my own tendencies, I guess you're too new to remember when I used to post stats constantly. The difference is I got the hint when others here not so subtlely let me know I was taking things too far. I have said, many times, that wisely applied stats are useful. You have said, many times, that you do not value intangibles, defensive play, or anything that isn't (to you) quantifiable within your preferred statistical context. But I'm the guy with extremist bias. Right.

For the record, I do think Kuz will rebound but not because his career arc has already been predicted by questionable stats that some fans believe in with religious fervor.
 

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
13,730
14,648
Well not everything is as easy as looking up stats online. So if it's too difficult to look at hockey analysis that isn't just statistical number shuffling, I don't know what to tell you. The fact that you don't or can't grasp the importance of the difference between "variables" and "luck" when discussing a player is not a credit to objectivity or thoroughness of analysis. And I don't care which other stat-heads you rely on for validation because that's self-affirmation within that community. It's shouting in a barrel. For every Foligno you cite I'm sure there are several exceptions or counter-examples that will be ignored. That's the way stat abuse works.

As for your assessment of my own tendencies, I guess you're too new to remember when I used to post stats constantly. The difference is I got the hint when others here not so subtlely let me know I was taking things too far. I have said, many times, that wisely applied stats are useful. You have said, many times, that you do not value intangibles, defensive play, or anything that isn't (to you) quantifiable within your preferred statistical context. But I'm the guy with extremist bias. Right.

For the record, I do think Kuz will rebound but not because his career arc has already been predicted by questionable stats that some fans believe in with religious fervor.

I just spent a paragraph describing variables that are unreasonable to control. If you insist that these are not elements of luck, fine. But if you think any player will ever be able to control these variables you are out of your mind. And if counter-examples to Foligno are so easily ignored, why don't you produce a few and we can discuss.

The fact that you specifically said you read the description of expected goals and still don't understand that shot angle and distance are taken into account makes me think you just have an incredible anti-stat bias because it clearly says these factors are taken into account. It's built from real data, and it predicts future data. I'd rather let eperry address the xG model because I have a sneaking suspicion he might know a little more about it than me ;)

Intangibles are real. But their benefits should be reflected statistically somewhere. If someone's a good leader, for instance, shouldn't the team be better (and the team he left be worse)? If someone is a good crease clearer, shouldn't there be fewer high-danger scoring chances against? If someone is a mentor, shouldn't the other players around him become better in a variety of statistical measurements?

The fact is games are won and lost based on stats (goals). So in order for intangibles to be valuable, they need to affect goal differential somehow. This is why I'm skeptical of intangibles-only arguments. If all statistical measures point to a player being bad (including goal differential), what good are the intangibles he brings?
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,632
14,727
Ok, this discussion is veering into the analytics debate and we have a thread for that. I'm partially responsible for the derailing. I think we should get back on topic and just agree to disagree on the stat validity debate.

edit: due to simul-posting didn't see the above so just want to clarify that I never said shot angle and distance weren't accounted for. I clearly said that those things are not all that go into a shot's quality


jeez, see how this never ends??

posts moved
 
Last edited:

Ajax1995

Registered User
Dec 9, 2002
8,809
867
Intangibles are real. But their benefits should be reflected statistically somewhere. If someone's a good leader, for instance, shouldn't the team be better (and the team he left be worse)? If someone is a good crease clearer, shouldn't there be fewer high-danger scoring chances against? If someone is a mentor, shouldn't the other players around him become better in a variety of statistical measurements?

I know it isn't hockey but has anyone read this? https://www.amazon.com/Intangiball-Subtle-Things-Baseball-Games/dp/1451696027?tag=viglink124377-20

I haven't but I think I might as I don't remotely buy into the idea that intangibles need to for all intents and purposes be tangible...
 

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
13,730
14,648
I really hate this post. Every hockey stat needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Outside actual goals, each stat is subjective and filled with error. We really need to stop pretending were baseball.

Hockey is harder to model than baseball, no doubt. Baseball is a series of individual plays that are easy to quantify and there is defined start and stop points for each play, while hockey is more free-flowing and each previous action tends to have a bigger impact on the next action.

But that doesn't mean that statistical based analysis is somehow invalid on hockey. It just means it's more difficult because there are many more variables to account for. Yes, new stats need to be proven useful and vetted by people before they should be widely used. But to say every stat is subjective and full of error is flat out wrong.

Very simple stats such as Corsi are just shot-attempts. You can argue whether or not something was truly a shot attempt (and thus a scorekeeper error), but over the long run these errors in data collection tend to balance out (or can be balanced out if you suspect some bias, *cough* Islanders scorekeeper tracking hitzzzz) and the error in collection is almost certainly minimal.
 

eperry

Registered User
Jun 27, 2016
64
9
I really hate this post. Every hockey stat needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Outside actual goals, each stat is subjective and filled with error. We really need to stop pretending were baseball.

That's why we test models to verify if and to what extent they can inform what's going on and what's likely to happen in the future. A skater's expected goals is a better predictor of future goal-scoring than actual goals. Teams' regular season xGF% is better at predicting the outcome of playoff series than GF% or the standings. So, if that stuff matters to you, you should appreciate what well-designed stats can offer you.
 

Corby78

65 - 10 - 20
Jan 14, 2014
11,771
7,980
Ramstein Germany
That's why we test models to verify if and to what extent they can inform what's going on and what's likely to happen in the future. A skater's expected goals is a better predictor of future goal-scoring than actual goals. Teams' regular season xGF% is better at predicting the outcome of playoff series than GF% or the standings. So, if that stuff matters to you, you should appreciate what well-designed stats can offer you.

There is a place for stats, but its not the end game. Stats are only as good as the numbers injected into the formulas, and it doesn't matter how many times you test them. Even something simple like "shots on goal" has error in it. There isn't anything determining what would have gone in and what would have missed, outside of some guys eyeball and his pencil. That is immediate error into whatever formula you create. Now over long periods of time you can start developing patterns, but that still doesn't take into account injuries/supporting players/coaching style and the like. More error.

Today's sports fans love stats and are driving the digital breakdown of everything to include how much water a guys drinks during a game. This is because of the boom of sports discussion boards/sports fantasy games/sports betting/and sports video games IMO. The days of watching a game and talking about it are gone, and I understand that. Even NHL teams recognize micro stats have a place and can be helpful. But these models and numbers aren't the determining factor or key to building a team. I'll take a pro scout over a laptop any day.
 

g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
30,632
14,727
There is a place for stats, but its not the end game. Stats are only as good as the numbers injected into the formulas, and it doesn't matter how many times you test them. Even something simple like "shots on goal" has error in it. There isn't anything determining what would have gone in and what would have missed, outside of some guys eyeball and his pencil. That is immediate error into whatever formula you create. Now over long periods of time you can start developing patterns, but that still doesn't take into account injuries/supporting players/coaching style and the like. More error.

Today's sports fans love stats and are driving the digital breakdown of everything to include how much water a guys drinks during a game. This is because of the boom of sports discussion boards/sports fantasy games/sports betting/and sports video games IMO. The days of watching a game and talking about it are gone, and I understand that. Even NHL teams recognize micro stats have a place and can be helpful. But these models and numbers aren't the determining factor or key to building a team. I'll take a pro scout over a laptop any day.

Agree. And every NHL front office person or coach I've heard talk has added similar disclaimers. People making their living on fancy stats will always oversell their importance, and cite the agreement among themselves about how important they are, but the majority of people who are paid to make the actual decisions--and whose jobs depend on the results-- are not relying on them entirely. I think we have an upcoming generation of fan that has only ever known online fantasy stats and has much more exposure to sports through that interface than anything else, and it's causing many to see sports exclusively through that lens.

And I don't think it's a "get with the times/revolution" argument. Older fans are probably guilty of overvaluing a few things that don't matter, and younger fans are probably guilty of oversimplifying the management of the game via combinations of numbers on a screen. The truth is somewhere in between.
 

Tweedsuitcase

Registered User
Sep 28, 2009
522
146
i've been trying to frame this questions correctly as a stats noob. If anyone feels like chiming in, i would find it very interesting.
so here goes: Does what we learn or can predict in advanced stats per player come from the player inherently (can they change what their "underlying stats" tell us about their past performance?), or is coaching/systems more important?
I don't want to get too sidetracked into talking about Pittsburgh, but as an example - the huge turnaround in pittsburgh's numbers, (that was echoed in their actual performance) - is the opinion that it came from the coaching change, or the players the GM brought in?
*from a stats perspective

sorry if this is not explained well, but if anyone wants to discuss, i'll try to clarify what i mean.
 

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
13,730
14,648
i've been trying to frame this questions correctly as a stats noob. If anyone feels like chiming in, i would find it very interesting.
so here goes: Does what we learn or can predict in advanced stats per player come from the player inherently (can they change what their "underlying stats" tell us about their past performance?), or is coaching/systems more important?
I don't want to get too sidetracked into talking about Pittsburgh, but as an example - the huge turnaround in pittsburgh's numbers, (that was echoed in their actual performance) - is the opinion that it came from the coaching change, or the players the GM brought in?
*from a stats perspective

sorry if this is not explained well, but if anyone wants to discuss, i'll try to clarify what i mean.

Coaching can certainly have a huge impact. Johnston -> Sullivan is a good recent example, but there are several other recent examples of how a coaching change can drastically help (or hurt) a team. Carlyle -> Babcock, Oates -> Trotz, Carlyle -> Boudreau, etc.

And a few recent coaching changes will likely have predictable results. For example, I bet the Ducks will almost assuredly be much worse statistically now that they have gone from Boudreau back to Carlyle. And the Avalanche will probably be much better no matter who they hire to replace Patrick Roy.

But a player's talent also factors into it greatly. For instance, Rob Scuderi went from a poor team (Pittsburgh under Johnston) to a great team (LA Kings). On both teams his numbers were just putrid and he dragged the rest of the team down with him. Similarly, more talented players will likely perform better relative to their inferior teammates no matter what team they are on. Players can certainly improve over time (Kuznetsov and Burakovsky for example have).

I have no idea what's MORE important (talent or coaching/systems), but it seems pretty clear both are very important. Not sure if this really addressed your question.
 

Tweedsuitcase

Registered User
Sep 28, 2009
522
146
yeah, that's getting at what i was wondering. Pittsburgh just seemed like a good case study, since they had such a dramatic turnaround within a single season, which included a coach/philosophy change as well as personnel.
I was wondering if Crosby's underlying numbers still looked ok in the first half of the season, for example.
Did the players they brought in all have decent profile before arriving (for example, has hagelin looked good "on paper" -for lack of a better term- from NYR to ANA to PITT?)
 

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
13,730
14,648
http://nhlnumbers.com/2016/8/10/passing-project-dangerous-primary-shot-contributions

Some nice work done on passing contributions on a team and individual level. The interesting thing is how drastically save percentages differ depending on what type of pass was made and that individuals have shown a lot of ability to create higher quality scoring chances (Kuznetsov, Henrik Sedin, Joe Thornton, etc.). It makes sense because royal road passing and behind the net passing leads to goaltenders having to shift position and probably lead to them not being set, but to actually quantify this is cool.
 

Corby78

65 - 10 - 20
Jan 14, 2014
11,771
7,980
Ramstein Germany
http://nhlnumbers.com/2016/8/10/passing-project-dangerous-primary-shot-contributions

Some nice work done on passing contributions on a team and individual level. The interesting thing is how drastically save percentages differ depending on what type of pass was made and that individuals have shown a lot of ability to create higher quality scoring chances (Kuznetsov, Henrik Sedin, Joe Thornton, etc.). It makes sense because royal road passing and behind the net passing leads to goaltenders having to shift position and probably lead to them not being set, but to actually quantify this is cool.

We needed all that to tell us that passes from behind the net or through the slot getting a goalie to move produce better scoring chances than say a D to D pass? Or a face off win? Or some other random pass? I was told that when I was in squirts some 30 years ago.
 

Ajax1995

Registered User
Dec 9, 2002
8,809
867
We needed all that to tell us that passes from behind the net or through the slot getting a goalie to move produce better scoring chances than say a D to D pass? Or a face off win? Or some other random pass? I was told that when I was in squirts some 30 years ago.

Yes but now there is 'proof'...
 

twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
13,730
14,648
It's actually quantifying exactly how much better these passing plays are that is neat. And which players actually create these plays and finish these plays.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Inter Milan vs Torino
    Inter Milan vs Torino
    Wagers: 4
    Staked: $1,752.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Metz vs Lille
    Metz vs Lille
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $220.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $240.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Bologna vs Udinese
    Bologna vs Udinese
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $265.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $15.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad