Value of: Alexis Lafreniere

[smoneil]

Ya but Laf wouldn't be on the Habs top PP either.
So we would still be trading a player who is almost twice as productive points wise and will triple the amount of goals Laf scores.
It will take a lot added to Laf to get Caufield. Most would refuse the offer. Well keep the soon to be 40 goal scorer over a 10-15 goal scorer.

For their careers, they have almost the exact same number of ES goals.

You are assuming that Caufield will continue his torrid scoring pace and that Laf won't continue returning to his career norm (he was ice cold, with a shooting % around 5% through the first 20 games of this season. He got to a point where he was so in his own head that he pretty much stopped shooting. He's been coming out of that over the last 10-15 games or so).

And again, nobody said you had to trade Caufield. The Rangers aren't making an "offer." They are fielding (yet another) offer from a Habs fan. The difference is that Rangers fans are saying "Caufield's a good player, but the trade doesn't make sense for us" while Habs fans are saying "You're player is shit and we don't want him, and we're pissed that you won't trade him to us." Again, you want to snap at people, snap at your own fan base, because Rangers fans aren't the ones driving these discussions.

 

[smoneil]

Everyone reading this is aware you agree with me and essentially all other hockey fans that in most cases goals are a far more important indication of offensive impact than total points. You are pretending not to in order to advance an argument that depends on this not being true.

I didn't say that goals were't more important. I said they weren't the ONLY important part of production (which is what you did by erasing assists altogether when evaluating players). You want to come at me and claim I'm being "intentionally misleading" and "pretending" in order to advance an argument, you can go pound sand. Caufield is ALREADY coming back down to Earth in his production. He's still wee in stature. You see the next 50+ goal scorer. I see a kid who had a good stretch of games to open the season.

But again--the bottom line here is the same: If you don't want to argue with Rangers fans about their players, stop making proposals for the player you don't want. And if it's someone in your fanbase doing it, yell at them, not at us. The vast majority of Rangers fans are tired of repeating ourselves to Habs fans shocked that we think our player (that they supposedly don't want) has value to us.

 

[bandwagonesque]

For their careers, they have almost the exact same number of ES goals.

Lafreniere has played more than 50 percent more games than Caulfield.

Obviously you know this and realize it renders your comparison meaningless. So my question is -- why bother even making it? You must have realized someone would notice.

 

[smoneil]

Ranger fan started this thread.
So Maybe a Ranger fan shouldn't start a thread asking us what's he worth. That way maybe we wouldn't answer the question we were asked.

A Columbus fan started this thread, and a Montreal fan made the "Laf and two 1sts for Caulfield" proposal (I'm going out on a limb here that someone with the user name "Slafy" is a Habs fan rather than a Rangers fan).

Visit Castle Black. Enjoy the Crow.

 

[smoneil]

Lafreniere has played more than 50 percent more games than Caulfield.

Obviously you know this and realize it renders your comparison meaningless. So my question is -- why bother even making it? You must have realized someone would notice.

Laf has played in 168 career regular season games (ie: the games that contributed to the stats being discussed).

Caufield has played in 109 career regular season games.

More? Yes. "More than 50 percent more"? Not unless you truly suck at math.

And again, we look at usage. Laf has played ~2,383 minutes of NHL regular season hockey. Caulfield has played 1,829. So in terms of ice time, Laf has played 554 more minutes of regular-season hockey. About ~33 more "Caufield" games.

And the majority of those were in their rookie years, where neither player belonged on NHL ice, and Laf played 56 games to Caufield's 10.

This is twice now where you have implied or outright stated that I was being dishonest, and twice now where you lied outright in giving your reason why. Try it again, and I will just block and report you, because it's getting to be annoying (ie: doing that three times in a row indicates a troll, not just a person with a poor grasp of logic and math).

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

As a Sabres fan, I'll take Caufield 10 times out of 10 over Lafreniere. Throw in Kakko, and I still want all 5-foot-7 of Cole. He can score. That's why he gets time. Lafreniere and Kakko don't have high-level NHL skills, and that's why they don't get time. They've had a few years now to earn more time. Pass on both.

 

[Zats Muccarello]

It's ridiculous to think the Rangers even consider trading Laf, I don't understand the point of this thread.

 

[lakeshirts37]

As a Sabres fan, I'll take Caufield 10 times out of 10 over Lafreniere. Throw in Kakko, and I still want all 5-foot-7 of Cole. He can score. That's why he gets time. Lafreniere and Kakko don't have high-level NHL skills, and that's why they don't get time. They've had a few years now to earn more time. Pass on both.

Just to clarify, you would rather have Caufield on your team as opposed to both Lafreniere and Kakko?

 

[Bacon Artemi Bravo]

Something we couldn't do with Laf.

Actually knowing how things work with the Rangers Laf would probably become a 50 goal scorer if he got traded

 

[bandwagonesque]

And again, we look at usage. Laf has played ~2,383 minutes of NHL regular season hockey. Caulfield has played 1,829. So in terms of ice time, Laf has played 554 more minutes of regular-season hockey. About ~33 more "Caufield" games.

Okay. So Lafreniere has played about 30 percent more regular season hockey, as measured by ice time. How does this legitimize the comparison you made?

 

[ole ole]

Laf has played in 168 career regular season games (ie: the games that contributed to the stats being discussed).

Caufield has played in 109 career regular season games.

More? Yes. "More than 50 percent more"? Not unless you truly suck at math.

And again, we look at usage. Laf has played ~2,383 minutes of NHL regular season hockey. Caulfield has played 1,829. So in terms of ice time, Laf has played 554 more minutes of regular-season hockey. About ~33 more "Caufield" games.

And the majority of those were in their rookie years, where neither player belonged on NHL ice, and Laf played 56 games to Caufield's 10.

This is twice now where you have implied or outright stated that I was being dishonest, and twice now where you lied outright in giving your reason why. Try it again, and I will just block and report you, because it's getting to be annoying (ie: doing that three times in a row indicates a troll, not just a person with a poor grasp of logic and math).



Look one post up from this tantrum. Neither the thread nor the Caufield proposal were made by Rangers fans.

On the thread maker i was mistaken. Sorry on that one.

It's ridiculous to think the Rangers even consider trading Laf, I don't understand the point of this thread.

It's equally as ridiculous to think the Habs would even consider involving Caufield in a trade for Laf.

 

[Aurinko]

As a Sabres fan, I'll take Caufield 10 times out of 10 over Lafreniere. Throw in Kakko, and I still want all 5-foot-7 of Cole. He can score. That's why he gets time. Lafreniere and Kakko don't have high-level NHL skills, and that's why they don't get time. They've had a few years now to earn more time. Pass on both.

I dont like Laf or Caufield, but if I had to choose I would go with the more complete player in Laf. Plus player that has a lot of maturity for his age should be the safer pick.

 

[Zats Muccarello]

On the thread maker i was mistaken. Sorry on that one.


It's equally as ridiculous to think the Habs would even consider involving Caufield in a trade for Laf.

Then let’s lock this up, seriously don’t understand this thread. People are arguing for no reason.

 

[waitin425]

Habs are not trading Caufield or Guhle for Lafreniere at this time. His degree of uncertainty is too high.

Rangers are not trading 2 1sts and Laf for Caufield. That is simply is not happening.

I don't see Lafreniere moving at this point unless

a) he requests it

or

b) Rangers see something that makes them want to stop taking the risk and cuts ties

Habs will not get burned with another Sergachev/Drouin trade so if the trade partner was going to be the Habs, it would have to be a package of lesser tiered prospects and/or picks, which would then be negotiable between the teams.

Caufield, Guhle, Slaf and probably Hutson would be off the table.

Mailloux, Barron, maybe Xhekaj, Harris, Roy, Farrell, Kidney, Beck, Mesar, some type of top 15 protected 1st rounder.

Those would be the pieces I would consider to varying degrees.

I peg Laf's value at this point to be no greater than a 15th overall pick in a typical draft.

As the disappointing seasons and stat lines add up that value diminishes (exponentially). It is up to the Rags to decide when they have had enough.

The Oilers rode the Yak train to the end of the track and got nothing in return. They would have got much more in year 2 or 3 of his NHL tenure than following year 4. Laf is coming up on year 4. If his track continues into the end of next year.......I'd peg his value relative to the return for Yak.....B prospect and 3rd rounder.

Tick Tock Rangers.....the clock is ticking

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Laf has played in 168 career regular season games (ie: the games that contributed to the stats being discussed).

Caufield has played in 109 career regular season games.

More? Yes. "More than 50 percent more"? Not unless you truly suck at math.

Technically:
- 50% of 109 is 54.5
- Laf has played 59 more games than Caufield and thus > 50% more games than Caufield's 109. If the poster had said "double the number of games", that would be 100% more.

using % because it can lead to confusion. It's clearer to say: Laf has played 1.54X more games than Caufield.

 

[Tanknation]

Would NY do this:
Caufield
for
Lafrenière + both 2023 first pick

Why the hell would Montreal ever do this? Yes let's trade a guy who is 21 and on pace to be a 50 goal scorer for a near bust and some picks.

 

[OKR]

Why the hell would Montreal ever do this? Yes let's trade a guy who is 21 and on pace to be a 50 goal scorer for a near bust and some picks.

Because they’ld get 2 ELC players on a stacked draft + former 1st overall player who they can sign to a cheaper contract than they could Caufield.

Also let’s not pretend that Caufield wasn’t ”near bust” under Ducharme just a while back as well, so it’s not like we’re talking about surefire perennial 50goal scorer in him either.

I personally wouldn’t do it, but it’s def not some kinda horrible offer for them.

 

[Extra Texture]

Laf has played in 168 career regular season games (ie: the games that contributed to the stats being discussed).

Caufield has played in 109 career regular season games.

More? Yes. "More than 50 percent more"? Not unless you truly suck at math.

Wait, what? I have no real side in this debate but what do you think the phrase “more than 50% more than…” actually means? Because the stated math is actually correct. 168 games is a higher number than “more than 50% more” of Caufield’s games.

Edit: Boom boom already pointed this out

 

[Tanknation]

Because they’ld get 2 ELC players on a stacked draft + former 1st overall player who they can sign to a cheaper contract than they could Caufield.

Also let’s not pretend that Caufield wasn’t ”near bust” under Ducharme just a while back as well, so it’s not like we’re talking about surefire perennial 50goal scorer in him either.

I personally wouldn’t do it, but it’s def not some kinda horrible offer for them.

Horrible offer that would never happen. Maybe in EA NHL.

 

[Holystik]

Laf has played in 168 career regular season games (ie: the games that contributed to the stats being discussed).

Caufield has played in 109 career regular season games.

More? Yes. "More than 50 percent more"? Not unless you truly suck at math.

And again, we look at usage. Laf has played ~2,383 minutes of NHL regular season hockey. Caulfield has played 1,829. So in terms of ice time, Laf has played 554 more minutes of regular-season hockey. About ~33 more "Caufield" games.

And the majority of those were in their rookie years, where neither player belonged on NHL ice, and Laf played 56 games to Caufield's 10.

This is twice now where you have implied or outright stated that I was being dishonest, and twice now where you lied outright in giving your reason why. Try it again, and I will just block and report you, because it's getting to be annoying (ie: doing that three times in a row indicates a troll, not just a person with a poor grasp of logic and math).

This is rich!

Guy says you suck at math but fails completely to see that it really is above 50%

That confidence is just awesome!

 

[Dijock94]

The Lafreniere talk has gotten exhausting. The rangers like him. And it’s really not that difficult to figure out why his point totals are low, he is a 3rd/4th line LW on the rangers. He gets no time on PP1. Unfortunately for him he plays behind Panarin and Kreider. If it was me Laf would be on Zibanejads wing and he would score a lot more points, but Zib and KREIDS are glued at the hip so that ain’t happening.

 

[bernmeister]

The only thing that might make sense for both teams is Slafkovsky for Lafreniere. However, the Habs are going to have to wait to see how Slaf looks for the rest of this season and next at a min. Usually, you know what you got around age 20 or 21.

Maybe this is a trade we can do in 3 years time. Lots can happen from now till then though.
......

Thank you!
Applaud your honesty vs likely onslaught of no from fellow Habs fans.

I called this way back.
Slaf has clear but small edge on physical traits, no reason to shortchange LaF on shot, other aspects.

Main impetus for NY is to recover partial team control, entering elc v expiring elc, signif for a team w/upcoming cap issues.

Main reason for MON is signif marketing $$$ acquiring Quebec native for overall comparable talent.

 

[bernmeister]

Habs are not trading Caufield or Guhle for Lafreniere at this time. His degree of uncertainty is too high.

Rangers are not trading 2 1sts and Laf for Caufield. That is simply is not happening.

I don't see Lafreniere moving at this point unless

a) he requests it

or

b) Rangers see something that makes them want to stop taking the risk and cuts ties

Habs will not get burned with another Sergachev/Drouin trade so if the trade partner was going to be the Habs, it would have to be a package of lesser tiered prospects and/or picks, which would then be negotiable between the teams.

Caufield, Guhle, Slaf and probably Hutson would be off the table.

Mailloux, Barron, maybe Xhekaj, Harris, Roy, Farrell, Kidney, Beck, Mesar, some type of top 15 protected 1st rounder.

Those would be the pieces I would consider to varying degrees.

I peg Laf's value at this point to be no greater than a 15th overall pick in a typical draft.

As the disappointing seasons and stat lines add up that value diminishes (exponentially). It is up to the Rags to decide when they have had enough.

The Oilers rode the Yak train to the end of the track and got nothing in return. They would have got much more in year 2 or 3 of his NHL tenure than following year 4. Laf is coming up on year 4. If his track continues into the end of next year.......I'd peg his value relative to the return for Yak.....B prospect and 3rd rounder.

Tick Tock Rangers.....the clock is ticking

Your overly negative narrative is called out.
LaF prior to about a year ago is a non factor. His sub par skating is now par and continuing to improve. His results go up w/this, and finding chemistry w/correct linemates.

So no clock, and if we do not get too much to turn down offer, we can extend on rfa reasonably at this pt.
Clock may tick in the future, but not anytime soon.

 

[waitin425]

Your overly negative narrative is called out.
LaF prior to about a year ago is a non factor. His sub par skating is now par and continuing to improve. His results go up w/this, and finding chemistry w/correct linemates.

So no clock, and if we do not get too much to turn down offer, we can extend on rfa reasonably at this pt.
Clock may tick in the future, but not anytime soon.

Overly negative narrative? Defensive much?

Assets have value. Value is subjective. Value increases or diminishes. You are free to place value on your asset as you see fit. As are fans of other teams with their assets. Any decision to trade or keep Laf is a gamble on the swing in value.

I never said what my thoughts on Laf were in terms of his skill set. If I was the Rangers I would keep him, as I think he will continue to improve as you have stated (I loved him in the playoffs).

My comfort level however, doesn't extend into Caufield, Guhle, Slaf or Hutson. Maybe I am wrong...that's my gamble.

 

[OKR]

Horrible offer that would never happen. Maybe in EA NHL.

It’s really not. Rangers would never offer that so it’s not gonna happen, so you got that part right tho.