Alexander Barkov vs. Auston Matthews

[thomast]

I was talking about facts, not opinions. Barkov is a Selke winner.

But if you truly are implying that Matthews has been the better player _defensively_ past three years I don't know what to say other than I disagree strongly as is probably majority of people following hockey.

Bottom line in this debate is the same, is Matthews absurdly good goal scoring ability (with great overall game as well) bringing more to the table than Barkov's super solid 200ft game (with high offensive production). I can totally see why many are favoring Matthews even I might disagree. But saying he's better defensively is just not credible take.

Giving him Selke would be like giving vezina to a goalie with good analytics, but horrible concrete stats like sv% and ga/g. I wouldn’t label him having great defensive impact this year. Player can be awesome defensive player without playing PK for sure, but often you lose and win games by special teams. Playing PK and preventing opposite team from scoring is going to impact the team defensively in a big way. Defensive game isn’t just single or few aspects of the game. It’s combination of many, Matthews might be good defensively but his defensive impact isn’t on selke level especially when his concrete stats are bad. He is going for more precious awards like Hart and Lindsay, but Selke should be absolutely out of question. Bergeron is running with it anyways.

The problem with using ES oiGA is that its (rightly) considered a poor measure of defensive play. I mean, Matthews was better than Barkov in that metric the last two season's before this one but it's so random and goaltending related, I wouldn't hold it against Barkov either.

It’s actually only concrete stats that trumps any analytics. It’s not grey area anymore.

 

[thomast]

The problem with using ES oiGA is that its (rightly) considered a poor measure of defensive play. I mean, Matthews was better than Barkov in that metric the last two season's before this one but it's so random and goaltending related, I wouldn't hold it against Barkov either.

Barkov wasn’t a great defensive player at 17-20. He was pretty average very average, before that he was elite and gained reputation. Matthews this year is closer to Barkov this year and last year combined.

 

[Zybalto]

Barkov wasn’t a great defensive player at 17-20. He was pretty average very average, before that he was elite and gained reputation.

So lets look at last season (Barkov wins best defensive forward):

5v5:

OZone start %:
Matthews: 56.79
Barkov: 57.67

Shots Against/60:
Matthews: 24.64 (-2.48)
Barkov: 25.74 (-3.59)

HD Chances against/60:
Matthews: 7.87 (-1.48)
Barkov: 7.79 (-.95)

xGA:
Matthews: 2.01 (-.05)
Barkov: 1.95 (-.15)

Goals Against/60:
Matthews: 1.99 (-.20)
Barkov: 2.07 (-.10)

Throwing GA in there really makes me wonder if Matthews should have gotten a Selke nom over Barkov last year......but I'm rather happy not adding GA/60 metrics to the mix myself. We have better, more reliable defensive metrics.

 

[Contenderorpretender]

Isn't it crazy that you seem to be unable to read and you still have posted 1000+ posts here? Key words: per, average.

Lol sorry it was just so unbearable to read your post a per 10 game stat line. Never seen that before. Must be new to hockey. And talking about how close they are in production but so far apart defensively is just a hot garbage take.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

So lets look at last season (Barkov wins best defensive forward):

5v5:

OZone start %:
Matthews: 56.79
Barkov: 57.67

Shots Against/60:
Matthews: 24.64 (-2.48)
Barkov: 25.74 (-3.59)

HD Chances against/60:
Matthews: 7.87 (-1.48)
Barkov: 7.79 (-.95)

xGA:
Matthews: 2.01 (-.05)
Barkov: 1.95 (-.15)

Goals Against/60:
Matthews: 1.99 (-.20)
Barkov: 2.07 (-.10)

Throwing GA in there really makes me wonder if Matthews should have gotten a Selke nom over Barkov last year......but I'm rather happy not adding GA/60 metrics to the mix myself. We have better, more reliable defensive metrics.

Every metric you posted here is significantly driven by offensive zone possession rather than actual defensive play. When a player has the puck in the O zone, the other team does not and therefore is not generating shot attempts or dangerous chances. Matthews is very good at maintaining possession in the O zone and just above average to good at actual defense when the other team has the puck. Barkov is very good at maintaining possession and elite at play without the puck

 

[Pyrophorus]

This haha is important here as it indicates that you're joking so you don't look that stupid, right? Right??

Ok...show your work

 

[Zybalto]

Every metric you posted here is significantly driven by offensive zone possession rather than actual defensive play. When a player has the puck in the O zone, the other team does not and therefore is not generating shot attempts or dangerous chances. Matthews is very good at maintaining possession in the O zone and just above average to good at actual defense when the other team has the puck. Barkov is very good at maintaining possession and elite at play without the puck

Maybe a bigger argument here to be had (MacKinnon has had great defensive numbers for stretches due to crazy possession numbers) but Matthews (much like Barkov) has certainly gotten better with reads and off puck play as he has gotten older.

I was just trying to point out that goals against has never been that great an evaluator of defensive play and sometimes can even give you an opposite result.

 

[authentic]

I was talking about facts, not opinions. Barkov is a Selke winner.

But if you truly are implying that Matthews has been the better player _defensively_ past three years I don't know what to say other than I disagree strongly as is probably majority of people following hockey.

Bottom line in this debate is the same, is Matthews absurdly good goal scoring ability (with great overall game as well) bringing more to the table than Barkov's super solid 200ft game (with high offensive production). I can totally see why many are favoring Matthews even I might disagree. But saying he's better defensively is just not credible take.

I said he has better defensive stats. This thread is proof of it unless you can show otherwise.

 

[authentic]

I think Matthews has improved his total game a lot, his playing more solid game defensively than in previous years. He's really strong with the puck, good in turnovers, faceoffs and in my mind also better in positioning himself in ice as well. Some times in defensive end he can still improve with better positioning and winning more battles. I don't believe his high GA numbers are solely attributable to goalies.

Well that’s unfortunate but you’re wrong.

 

[authentic]

Every metric you posted here is significantly driven by offensive zone possession rather than actual defensive play. When a player has the puck in the O zone, the other team does not and therefore is not generating shot attempts or dangerous chances. Matthews is very good at maintaining possession in the O zone and just above average to good at actual defense when the other team has the puck. Barkov is very good at maintaining possession and elite at play without the puck

Really? Then why is he at the top of every defensive stat then and higher than Barkov?

 

[FlaPanthers11]

Really? Then why is he at the top of every defensive stat then and higher than Barkov?

What defensive stats? He’s at the top of possession stats. Because he’s one of the best, if not the best, offensive player in the NHL. When he’s on the ice he tends to have the puck. The other team doesn’t. The other team doesn’t generate shots and chances at a high rate.

However, there comes a time when the other team will get the puck and at that time you need to play defense. That’s the time when Barkov is elite and Matthews is only good.

A couple days ago, I pointed out 2 to 3 defensive breakdowns that Matthews had in one game alone that resulted in goals against in the Vancouver game. The very next game he had a horrendous defensive play that resulted in a goal against (the 4 on 4 goal in the Columbus game). No Leafs fans were able to discuss those breakdowns. The post was ignored.

He’s greatly improved in the defensive zone. Even to the point that you can call him a good defensive player. But he still has frequent and significant lapses and acting like he’s anywhere near an elite defensive player because of good possession metrics (driven by his offensive ability) is crazy.

People arguing for Barkov here are very clearly conceding that Matthews is better in certain aspects of the game. Matthews supporters here are unwilling to concede that Barkov is better at any aspect. Including defense. Of which he is the reigning award winner. You can’t have a serious discussion like that

 

[Tarmore]

Somehow some people here think Barkoff is the better player yet he doesn't even lead his team in points, or points per game.

 

[Mitch nylander]

Easily Matthews at this point he's arguably the second best player in the league.

 

[authentic]

What defensive stats? He’s at the top of possession stats. Because he’s one of the best, if not the best, offensive player in the NHL. When he’s on the ice he tends to have the puck. The other team doesn’t. The other team doesn’t generate shots and chances at a high rate.

However, there comes a time when the other team will get the puck and at that time you need to play defense. That’s the time when Barkov is elite and Matthews is only good.

A couple days ago, I pointed out 2 to 3 defensive breakdowns that Matthews had in one game alone that resulted in goals against in the Vancouver game. The very next game he had a horrendous defensive play that resulted in a goal against (the 4 on 4 goal in the Columbus game). No Leafs fans were able to discuss those breakdowns. The post was ignored.

He’s greatly improved in the defensive zone. Even to the point that you can call him a good defensive player. But he still has frequent and significant lapses and acting like he’s anywhere near an elite defensive player because of good possession metrics (driven by his offensive ability) is crazy.

People arguing for Barkov here are very clearly conceding that Matthews is better in certain aspects of the game. Matthews supporters here are unwilling to concede that Barkov is better at any aspect. Including defense. Of which he is the reigning award winner. You can’t have a serious discussion like that

You can’t have a serious discussion when only one side posts stats and the other repeatedly says they don’t exist somehow lol

 

[Atomos2]

You can’t have a serious discussion when only one side posts stats and the other repeatedly says they don’t exist somehow lol

Your post had me thinking of this

 

[authentic]

Your post had me thinking of this

Lmao

 

[Regal]

You can’t have a serious discussion when only one side posts stats and the other repeatedly says they don’t exist somehow lol

I think we do need to separate this idea of shot/chance suppression and defense though because I do believe they’re two different things. I don’t think statistically we’re at a point where we can really measure “defense” without offense playing a role though, so I don’t think there’s much to argue other than eye test analysis. I do believe Barkov is better at in-zone defense, and that has situational value beyond shot suppression. Unlike that poster though, I do believe shot suppression is more valuable overall though because most of the game is played in a free-flowing way at 5v5.

 

[authentic]

I think we do need to separate this idea of shot/chance suppression and defense though because I do believe they’re two different things. I don’t think statistically we’re at a point where we can really measure “defense” without offense playing a role though, so I don’t think there’s much to argue other than eye test analysis. I do believe Barkov is better at in-zone defense, and that has situational value beyond shot suppression. Unlike that poster though, I do believe shot suppression is more valuable overall though because most of the game is played in a free-flowing way at 5v5.

I think Barkov seems more defensively sound at in zone defense to me when watching him as well, but of course we're comparing him to the best two-way player in the world all things considered because like you say his combination of offense and defense simply make him a more effective player overall. It's almost like Datsyuk vs. Zettberberg back in their prime, Datsyuk had more overall defensive impact due to his offensive and possession game and he was a beast on takeaways like Matthews today except even better, but when it came to simply shutting a player down and defending in their own zone I think Zetterberg had the edge.

If you watch Matthews play though he's always positioned well deep in his zone blocking shots, preventing scoring chances/goals and helping in transition. It's not like he's lacking in that area of his game as much as some Panthers fans here want to point out every little mistake to fit their narrative.

 

[Miro4Norris]

Lol sorry it was just so unbearable to read your post a per 10 game stat line. Never seen that before. Must be new to hockey. And talking about how close they are in production but so far apart defensively is just a hot garbage take.

It is pretty practical to visualize that 1.3 and 1.4 ppg difference isn't that huge in a relatively small sample size as here

 

[Miro4Norris]

Ok...show your work

One guy is the latest winner of the best defensive forward award and the other has never been close to winning it. Not worth of comparison

 

[Deadly Dogma]

One guy is the latest winner of the best defensive forward award and the other has never been close to winning it. Not worth of comparison

Matthews is better than Barkov in 95% of all hockey related skills.
Matthews is better than Barkov thats it thats all.

 

[QJL]

Matthews is the obvious choice, but it wasn’t as obvious when this poll was created on 2/2. This Matthews run has been special.

 

[NiagaraKraken]

Easily Matthews lol

 

[BlueBaron]

Last 82 games for these two:

Barkov: 47 + 52 = 99

Matthews: 62 + 43 = 105

Matthews is the better goalscorer sure, probably the best in the league. Barkov is better defensively (the fact that anyone even argues this is crazy to me).

Matthews > Barkov this season but the difference isn't as big as some of you are trying to make it seem.

The difference between stars is really a game of inches. I was always quick to point out how close Kucherov and MacKinnon were to McDavid.

Matthews is having a career year and while I would say his goal scoring is truly elite, as a total talent he's just one of several amazing talents we are being treated with right now.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Meant to vote Matthews lol