Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part IV

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Yeah I don't think thats evenly remotely true. Most coaches would have bounced Girardi off the first pair a long time ago. Girardi has been a great Ranger but this isn't some first ballot HOFer we need to give special treatment to.

Leetch and Beukeboom are probably the most iconic Rangers pair in the past 40 years and they got split up about 3 weeks into a season when Beukes game went of a cliff. We're approaching 3 years with Girardi.

Who is replacing him on the top pair, though? Klein has been a complete trainwreck, and Holden has been MUCH better away from McD. It's lose lose lose with this situation.

I think AV is just trying to mitigate the damage at this point. I'm not a HUGE AV fan, but I think he's done an admirable job this season with the personnel given to him.

 

[Raspewtin]

Yeah I don't think thats evenly remotely true. Most coaches would have bounced Girardi off the first pair a long time ago. Girardi has been a great Ranger but this isn't some first ballot HOFer we need to give special treatment to.

Leetch and Beukeboom are probably the most iconic Rangers pair in the past 40 years and they got split up about 3 weeks into a season when Beukes game went of a cliff. We're approaching 3 years with Girardi.

This this this this THIS

Girardi hasn't had the career that warrants the treatment he gets. Even his biggest fanboys will say that. This is not Martin Brodeur getting those laughable nostalgia starts he got in 2014. This isn't playing Zetterberg as your top line center even though he's clearly lost about 40 steps. This is a bad player with a decent at best career who's best talking point is what an exemplary person he is and what a warrior he is.

Who is replacing him on the top pair, though? Klein has been a complete trainwreck, and Holden has been MUCH better away from McD. It's lose lose lose with this situation.

I think AV is just trying to mitigate the damage at this point. I'm not a HUGE AV fan, but I think he's done an admirable job this season with the personnel given to him.

Literally any one of them would do better. Klein on his worst days is a mile better. Girardi is not an NHL'er.

You "mitigate the damage" by not playing him or playing him as little as possible.

Like I said we are past laughing off any possible solution to problem.

And then about a month later we **** and moan that there is no solution in sight and that we're having a shot gun wedding with Girardi's corpse.

 

[Ori]

It looks like that G don`t skate at all sometimes even though I value his physical play highly, because the team lack such players no doubts.

 

[gorangers0525]

This this this this THIS

Girardi hasn't had the career that warrants the treatment he gets. Even his biggest fanboys will say that. This is not Martin Brodeur getting those laughable nostalgia starts he got in 2014. This isn't playing Zetterberg as your top line center even though he's clearly lost about 40 steps. This is a bad player with a decent at best career who's best talking point is what an exemplary person he is and what a warrior he is.



Literally any one of them would do better. Klein on his worst days is a mile better. Girardi is not an NHL'er.

You "mitigate the damage" by not playing him or playing him as little as possible.





And then about a month later we **** and moan that there is no solution in sight and that we're having a shot gun wedding with Girardi's corpse.

Thank you, guy played like a mid pairing defenseman at his absolute peak. He's very, very lucky he's had coaches that value "heart" over effectiveness.


Klein has a few awful games, but he overall has been much, much better than Girardi. The fact that he is the one to sit when Clendening gets the rare chance is absurd.

 

[Inferno]

Klein's been really awful....

 

[Irishguy42]

Good challenge by him last night. Kudos to the video staff as well.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Thank you, guy played like a mid pairing defenseman at his absolute peak. He's very, very lucky he's had coaches that value "heart" over effectiveness.


Klein has a few awful games, but he overall has been much, much better than Girardi. The fact that he is the one to sit when Clendening gets the rare chance is absurd.

Have you seen Klein play this season?!

 

[Raspewtin]

Have you seen Klein play this season?!

Yeah and he's still much better than G but this is not a Klein thread.

 

[Raspewtin]

Really have to give credit here to AV for going with Raantta again.

Not an easy choice, but it's the right one.

If only he'd extend this courtesy to a certain #5.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Really have to give credit here to AV for going with Raantta again.

Not an easy choice, but it's the right one.

If only he'd extend this courtesy to a certain #5.

But he ie going with Girardi every game. He is already extending the courtesy

 

[gorangers0525]

Have you seen Klein play this season?!

You can play awful and be better than Girardi has been the past two seasons.

 

[True Blue]

Staal and (especially Girardi): these guys have struggled, no doubt. They've very good at pointing that out. What they're terrible at is gauging what a "better player" really is. McIlrath? Swing and a miss. Clendening? Give me a break. These people need to take a long, hard look in the mirror when making declarative statements about better options being readily available and AV just ignoring it.

I am not a Clendening lover, but one would think that given how poorly some of the defensemen have played, he would have been given a shot. How much worse could it be?

Speaking of given a shot, that holds true for McILrath. Was he a swing and a miss or not really being given an opportunity by a coach?

 

[True Blue]

Are we talking about your "coaches, scouts, management" experts or about popular opinion on HF? Signing Girardi and Boyle over Stralman was their call and has turned into an apocalyptic level F up. Putting Dan Girardi every night on the 1st pair is there call, and is a horror show. And you think its a good idea to trust these people when it comes to Dan Girardi?

Nothing really to argue with here.

 

[True Blue]

Girardi hasn't had the career that warrants the treatment he gets. Even his biggest fanboys will say that. This is not Martin Brodeur getting those laughable nostalgia starts he got in 2014. This isn't playing Zetterberg as your top line center even though he's clearly lost about 40 steps. This is a bad player with a decent at best career who's best talking point is what an exemplary person he is and what a warrior he is.

Careful. Your bias of him is clearly showing.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Speaking of given a shot, that holds true for McILrath. Was he a swing and a miss or not really being given an opportunity by a coach?

Probably a bit of both.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

i am not a clendening lover, but one would think that given how poorly some of the defensemen have played, he would have been given a shot. How much worse could it be?

Speaking of given a shot, that holds true for mcilrath. Was he a swing and a miss or not really being given an opportunity by a coach?

https://www.nhl.com/video/c-45563803
https://www.nhl.com/video/c-43035803
https://www.nhl.com/video/c-43030903

edit: stupid embed didnt work

 

[Raspewtin]

https://www.nhl.com/video/c-45563803
https://www.nhl.com/video/c-43035803
https://www.nhl.com/video/c-43030903

edit: stupid embed didnt work

you already know what's coming so not going to bother.

 

[Mac n Gs]

If anything, Clendening should be getting time to rotate the d and keep legs fresher with the condensed schedule. He's played very well in his limited time. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[haohmaru]

This this this this THIS

Girardi hasn't had the career that warrants the treatment he gets. Even his biggest fanboys will say that. This is not Martin Brodeur getting those laughable nostalgia starts he got in 2014. This isn't playing Zetterberg as your top line center even though he's clearly lost about 40 steps. This is a bad player with a decent at best career who's best talking point is what an exemplary person he is and what a warrior he is.

I can get on board with this for the most part.

Literally any one of them would do better. Klein on his worst days is a mile better. Girardi is not an NHL'er.

But then you say stuff like this. Girardi has been serviceable this year and, truth be told, the NHL and its parity is so good these days that you can't get away with an AHL'er on your first pair and somehow win twice as many games as you lose. This alone should be evidence enough that Girardi belongs on a big club but definitely as a 5/6 not a 1/2. He's been on the ice for how many even strength goals through 30 games? 11? 12? It's something like that and that's playing against the other team's best forwards. I don't care what his CF% is and you can't even point to Lundqvist saving his ass because he hasn't been himself either. But, I'm not going to get into another pages and pages debate about this because no one is changing your mind.

 

[silverfish]

But then you say stuff like this. Girardi has been serviceable this year and, truth be told, the NHL and its parity is so good these days that you can't get away with an AHL'er on your first pair and somehow win twice as many games as you lose. This alone should be evidence enough that Girardi belongs on a big club but definitely as a 5/6 not a 1/2. He's been on the ice for how many even strength goals through 30 games? 11? 12? It's something like that and that's playing against the other team's best forwards. I don't care what his CF% is and you can't even point to Lundqvist saving his ass because he hasn't been himself either. But, I'm not going to get into another pages and pages debate about this because no one is changing your mind.

He hasn't been serviceable at all. Once again, he's one of the worst d-men in the league. He's getting a pass from fans right now this year because he's not actually the worst d-man in the league like he was last year. Hooray?

You could throw a dart at a board of NHL d-mens names, and there's a 85% chance (if not higher) that it would hit a d-man better than Girardi.

EDIT - Should point out that this is not the fault of Girardi, but the fault of the man who continues to believe Girardi is a 1RD.

 

[Raspewtin]

But then you say stuff like this. Girardi has been serviceable this year and, truth be told,

No he hasn't but I'm not interested in trekking down the yellow brick road here.

the NHL and its parity is so good these days that you can't get away with an AHL'er on your first pair and somehow win twice as many games as you lose.

When you score 6 trillion goals and have a norris caliber partner + best goalie of this generation of course you can.

LA did it in 2012, somehow.

This alone should be evidence enough that Girardi belongs on a big club but definitely as a 5/6 not a 1/2.

It shouldn't be and it isn't

He's been on the ice for how many even strength goals through 30 games? 11? 12? It's something like that and that's playing against the other team's best forwards.

Goal based stats are bad, especially over a 30 game season.

I don't care what his CF% is

But you care how about something as rudimentary and worthless as how many goals he's on for against over a useless sample size, ok

 

[haohmaru]

When you score 6 trillion goals and have a norris caliber partner + best goalie of this generation of course you can.

LA did it in 2012, somehow.

What makes you think I was talking solely about this season? Henrik has been an average NHL goalie this year. 99-49-16 over the last two years going into this season.

Who was Doughty paired with in '12 that you say is as bad as your definition of Girardi is?

It shouldn't be and it isn't

Of course it should. If your "AHL" guy on the first pair is playing against the other team's best players and your record is 20-9-1 then I submit you don't have an AHL player on 1RD. I don't care what metric you're using - ultimately it's about winning and preventing goals.

Goal based stats are bad, especially over a 30 game season.

What is the purpose of defense?

But you care how about something as rudimentary and worthless as how many goals he's on for against over a useless sample size, ok

So, how many goals he's on the ice for at even strength, the team's Win/Loss record, and keeping the other team's best forwards off the scoreboard are "rudimentary and worthless"? Got it.

I'm not making an argument that Girardi is a 1RD or even a 3/4 at this point. I'm saying that if he's as bad as YOU think he is, then this team wouldn't have the record that it does and has had over the course of his career. This NHL competition simply wouldn't allow it. How many coaches have played him at 1RD? How many assistants put him there as well? Is it possible that you're missing something in your analysis? He warrants criticism for sure - but characterizing him as an AHL'er or ECHL'er or whatever actually diminishes (in my eyes anyway) the points that you're trying to make when you talk about him.

 

[silverfish]

never mind. new name, new person. mods plz delete thank you.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

So, how many goals he's on the ice for at even strength, the team's Win/Loss record, and keeping the other team's best forwards off the scoreboard are "rudimentary and worthless"? Got it.

I enjoyed this common sense response thoroughly. The problem with this board is you've got a few people who are too "smart" for their own good. Textbook example here.

 

[silverfish]

I enjoyed this common sense response thoroughly. The problem with this board is you've got a few people who are too "smart" for their own good. Textbook example here.

Let's say you have a player who is constantly blitzed by the opposition by shots against, but isn't necessarily on the ice for a ton of goals against. Would you say that this player, who gives up many, many shots is doing his job? Or, would you say that maybe the goalie behind this player is the one doing most of the work?

For example, here are the shot attempt against per 60 metrics and SA% for Girardi against a few of his most popular competition over the past three years:

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=203&withagainst=true&season=2014-17&sit=5v5

Victor Rask: 56.11 (49.3% SA%)
Tavares: 68.90 (41.1%)
Ovechkin: 65 (40.7%)
Giroux: 63.27 (35.8%)
Crosby: 72.25 (39.6%)

Victor Rask has been G's most common opponent in the past three years. He's been on the ice for 80:12 of 5v5 time against Rask.

The point here is, if Girardi spent a significant amount of TOI against these players, and kept allowing shots at that rate, then the goals against would happen. So, I don't think it's so out of the realm to believe that it's less that Girardi is not allowing GA versus Lundqvist/Raanta stopping shots as well as they both do.

For reference, here is the shot attempt per 60 rate of those same five players away from Girardi:

58.08 (more)
63.33 (less)
62.39 (less)
62.03 (less)
65.00 (less)

So when the argument arises: "Well, yeah, but look at those players, that's tough competition!". Girardi only performs better than the rest of the league against Victor Rask.