Adam Fox, Cale Makar or Miro Heiskanen?

[wetcoast]

Voted for Makar but can't go wrong with any of the 3 really.

 

[Petey But Really Jim]

Makar hundy p all day baybay

 

[Dr Pepper]

Stars already have Miro, that's good enough for me.

 

[Three On Zero]

Makar
Fox



Heiskanen

 

[wintersej]

Whats the reasoning behind this. Just curious

Offensive zone impact at 5 on 5, transition impact, defensive zone impact at 5 on 5, PP and PK. I think those are the core attributes we use here.

At 5 on 5, Makar, McAvoy and Fox were all within one point of each other. Makar had the best PPG and Fox the worst of those three, but who knows how repeatable that is. For instance, the year before, Miro was also right there with the other guys, but Dallas TANKED offensively last year. There were fewer points to go around. In general, both Makar and Fox were in more favorable positions for 5 on 5 offense playing on teams that push the pace. Point is, that the idea that Makar and Fox are vastly better offensively is horseshit. I think the biggest sin folks make on this site is sorting the counting stats and not taking into account team/role/usage.

All are excellent in transition and get a lot of value from this part of their game.

Makar takes up the rear in defensive zone impact. Miro and McAvoy at the top, but the gap between Fox and those two and Fox and Makar is in Fox's favor.

Makar and Fox killed it on the PP. McAvoy and Miro have not gotten the PP1 responsibility that Makar and Fox have. I can state in the Bruins case this was on purpose... they wanted him to concentrate on defense first in his development. This year McAvoy is taking over PP1 and the points will obviously follow with Marchand, Bergeron, Pastrnak and Hall on his line. Miro is behind Klingberg and even if Miro was better than Klingberg, it would be a poor use of resources. McAvoy won't be getting the shaft anymore, but Miro sure is.

Makar gets to take the PK off. Lucky him. Frankly, I don't hold that against him so much... its not his role... but

TLDR; Team styles and role is going to effect counting numbers. Makar and Fox are in a far better offensive position to succeed than McAvoy and Miro. I assume Miro over Fox is the ranking giving you trouble. Fox was clearly better than Miro last year. I'm not on drugs. I'm just not sure how much more Fox has to give. He is an IQ driven guy with OK physical talents. How much more room is there for his IQ to get better? Miro has more to give offensively. I assume NEXT year when Klingberg is likely gone he will get to show that. McAvoy will show it this year.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Hockey fans and media likes to anoint players to certain titles before they accomplish it. They should’ve learned their lesson with Hart. How is Makar so universally viewed as the best defenseman in the NHL? Is Fox not the same age with an actual Norris? You could also certainly argue that Hedman, Josi or another veteran 1D is better.

Huh? Makar has already proven that he's a top 5 dman during his time in the NHL? Him and Fox have been neck and neck their entire careers? I don't see how claiming Makar is a top end dman/player in the league is outlandish at all.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Huh? Makar has already proven that he's a top 5 dman during his time in the NHL? Him and Fox have been neck and neck their entire careers? I don't see how claiming Makar is a top end dman/player in the league is outlandish at all.

You are changing the discussion. How does a guy that is a top 5 defenseman, as you say, go to the undisputed best in the league without actually doing anything better than the other top five defensemen? It’s all narrative based. They want to find the new Canadian star. They elevated Hart too quickly, and are doing the same for Makar, although to a different extent.

 

[The Abusement Park]

You are changing the discussion. How does a guy that is a top 5 defenseman, as you say, go to the undisputed best in the league without actually doing anything better than the other top five defensemen? It’s all narrative based. They want to find the new Canadian star. They elevated Hart too quickly, and are doing the same for Makar, although to a different extent.

I mean he's scored at a rate that no defenseman in recent memory has. He finished 2nd in the Norris last year and had a very realistic shot of winning it if he didn't get hurt. He's worthy of all the praise he gets, just like Fox is.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Offensive zone impact at 5 on 5, transition impact, defensive zone impact at 5 on 5, PP and PK. I think those are the core attributes we use here.

At 5 on 5, Makar, McAvoy and Fox were all within one point of each other. Makar had the best PPG and Fox the worst of those three, but who knows how repeatable that is. For instance, the year before, Miro was also right there with the other guys, but Dallas TANKED offensively last year. There were fewer points to go around. In general, both Makar and Fox were in more favorable positions for 5 on 5 offense playing on teams that push the pace. Point is, that the idea that Makar and Fox are vastly better offensively is horseshit. I think the biggest sin folks make on this site is sorting the counting stats and not taking into account team/role/usage.

All are excellent in transition and get a lot of value from this part of their game.

Makar takes up the rear in defensive zone impact. Miro and McAvoy at the top, but the gap between Fox and those two and Fox and Makar is in Fox's favor.

Makar and Fox killed it on the PP. McAvoy and Miro have not gotten the PP1 responsibility that Makar and Fox have. I can state in the Bruins case this was on purpose... they wanted him to concentrate on defense first in his development. This year McAvoy is taking over PP1 and the points will obviously follow with Marchand, Bergeron, Pastrnak and Hall on his line. Miro is behind Klingberg and even if Miro was better than Klingberg, it would be a poor use of resources. McAvoy won't be getting the shaft anymore, but Miro sure is.

Makar gets to take the PK off. Lucky him. Frankly, I don't hold that against him so much... its not his role... but

TLDR; Team styles and role is going to effect counting numbers. Makar and Fox are in a far better offensive position to succeed than McAvoy and Miro. I assume Miro over Fox is the ranking giving you trouble. Fox was clearly better than Miro last year. I'm not on drugs. I'm just not sure how much more Fox has to give. He is an IQ driven guy with OK physical talents. How much more room is there for his IQ to get better? Miro has more to give offensively. I assume NEXT year when Klingberg is likely gone he will get to show that. McAvoy will show it this year.

You do realize that Fox won the Norris last season? I don’t know why he’d have to give any more. He’s also off to a great start. This idea that Fox is some fluke is just ridiculous. How many Norris does he need to not be a fluke? Why is it assumed that the other players will get better and Fox won’t? Don’t try to claim it’s all about PP. If you think Fox’s game is all about that or it’s the best part of his game, you clearly don’t know what you are saying.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I mean he's scored at a rate that no defenseman in recent memory has. He finished 2nd in the Norris last year and had a very realistic shot of winning it if he didn't get hurt. He's worthy of all the praise he gets, just like Fox is.

That’s a nothing statement. Give stats that show he’s the highest scoring defenseman in recent memory or drop the histrionics.

I never said he’s not a great player. I’m simply wondering how he’s become the undisputed best. If he was so good, why didn’t he win the best defenseman in the league last season? What about best player?

 

[Kupo]

That’s a nothing statement. Give stats that show he’s the highest scoring defenseman in recent memory or drop the histrionics.

I never said he’s not a great player. I’m simply wondering how he’s become the undisputed best. If he was so good, why didn’t he win the best defenseman in the league last season? What about best player?

Makar has the physical Wow factor in his game. His skating and offensive talent is ridiculous. Just an explosive player. I think his defense is actually a bit underrated as well, although that’s one area he needs, and likely will develop.

Fox Wows us with his cerebral play, both offensively and defensively. It’s just not as sexy, so his plays don’t stand out as much for some people.

I don’t like the Fox vs Makar comparison. They’re both two young, incredibly talented players that every team in the league would drool over.

I honestly wouldn’t have been too salty if Makar won the Norris last year. I’m just happy Hedman didn’t, because Fox and Makar were significantly better than him.

If Makar was a Ranger and Fox played for Colorado, the same damn arguments would be happening right now. Each fanbase would prefer their guy for various reasons.

 

[PAZ]

Hockey fans and media likes to anoint players to certain titles before they accomplish it. They should’ve learned their lesson with Hart. How is Makar so universally viewed as the best defenseman in the NHL? Is Fox not the same age with an actual Norris? You could also certainly argue that Hedman, Josi or another veteran 1D is better.

Because all it takes is the slight edge.

I don't think anyone is saying Makar is the clear, undisputed best defenseman in the league (like McDavid is). However, I do think he's done enough to show that he has separated himself from the pack for the majority of fans, if ever so slightly. The difference can be miniscule, but it's enough where Makar could be rated 92.5 and Fox/Hedman/Josi are rated 92. This can be attributed to a few things, like Hedman not looking the same since the injury, Josi having a down year, and Fox 'only' putting up 40 pts in 70 games in his first season. Makar has essentially been a PPG defenseman while being decent defensively, plus he has the advantage of proving he can produce and excel in the playoffs.

I have no issue if other people think Fox, Hedman, etc. are better than Makar. Honestly, i'd say Fox is the most consistent one out of all the names at the moment and probably better than Makar on a nightly basis. Makar does have his faults - he's starting to look like he's injury prone. But I can see why most fans have Makar on the top of their list, because when he's on there isn't a defenseman that can tilt the ice like he can.

 

[wintersej]

You do realize that Fox won the Norris last season? I don’t know why he’d have to give any more. He’s also off to a great start. This idea that Fox is some fluke is just ridiculous. How many Norris does he need to not be a fluke? Why is it assumed that the other players will get better and Fox won’t? Don’t try to claim it’s all about PP. If you think Fox’s game is all about that or it’s the best part of his game, you clearly don’t know what you are saying.

You are making arguments against points I didn't make and I'm sorry I triggered you. Fox won the Norris last year and was deserving as anyone else. Thats great and he is a great young player. I think all those guys will be up for the Norris in coming years. I just think that Miro and McAvoy have better defensive games and the offense will play up to Fox's level in the next few years. It already has for McAvoy at 5 on 5, and Miro was just on a bad offensive team while having shown the ability to produce at 5 on 5 in the past.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You are making arguments against points I didn't make and I'm sorry I triggered you. Fox won the Norris last year and was deserving as anyone else. Thats great and he is a great young player. I think all those guys will be up for the Norris in coming years. I just think that Miro and McAvoy have better defensive games and the offense will play up to Fox's level in the next few years. It already has for McAvoy at 5 on 5, and Miro was just on a bad offensive team while having shown the ability to produce at 5 on 5 in the past.

I am tired of hearing that Fox is some charity case that got lucky to be crowned Norris winner. It’s all about skating speed for some of these people. Some of those others are clearly worse in more important parts of the game, but Fox does it in a less exciting way, so we are told he has less to give. How was Chara’s skating speed when he won the Norris trophy? Worse than Fox. Fox doesn’t even skate badly. His edges are great. Why don’t you tell us about Makar’s defense or the puck skills of Heiskanen and McAvoy?

 

[RedWingzz]

Makar

 

[Rengorlex]

Fox, not close.

 

[wintersej]

I am tired of hearing that Fox is some charity case that got lucky to be crowned Norris winner. It’s all about skating speed for some of these people. Some of those others are clearly worse in more important parts of the game, but Fox does it in a less exciting way, so we are told he has less to give. How was Chara’s skating speed when he won the Norris trophy? Worse than Fox. Fox doesn’t even skate badly. His edges are great. Why don’t you tell us about Makar’s defense or the puck skills of Heiskanen and McAvoy?

I mean I clearly did talk about how Makar has the worst D of the group and didn't even PK. I think you are underrating the puck skills of the other defenders. Fox probably walks the line better (although I guess we are not allowed to talk about Fox being good on the PP without Rangers fans going off on how he isn't a PP specialist... no shit we know) but McAvoy especially has on par puck skills.

 

[J bo Jeans]

Hockey fans and media likes to anoint players to certain titles before they accomplish it. They should’ve learned their lesson with Hart. How is Makar so universally viewed as the best defenseman in the NHL? Is Fox not the same age with an actual Norris? You could also certainly argue that Hedman, Josi or another veteran 1D is better.

Only reason Fox won it last year was cause he played 11 more games in a shortened season than Makar.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Lol

Appears accurate to me. #4 is hardly an insult....

 

[J bo Jeans]

That’s a nothing statement. Give stats that show he’s the highest scoring defenseman in recent memory or drop the histrionics.

I never said he’s not a great player. I’m simply wondering how he’s become the undisputed best. If he was so good, why didn’t he win the best defenseman in the league last season? What about best player?

Because he missed 20% of the season LMAO. You sound like a broken record Norris this Norris that. He doesnt win it if Makar plays even 5 more games lmao.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

I don't think you realize just how good peak Karlsson was... predicting any current D to be at the level or surpass it is a hot take.

Karlsson is greatly overrated at this point as seen with your post. He was the premier offensive defenseman and Makar absolutely can match that.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I mean I clearly did talk about how Makar has the worst D of the group and didn't even PK. I think you are underrating the puck skills of the other defenders. Fox probably walks the line better (although I guess we are not allowed to talk about Fox being good on the PP without Rangers fans going off on how he isn't a PP specialist... no shit we know) but McAvoy especially has on par puck skills.

And yet you still concluded that Makar has the most to give and Fox the least. Seems like flashy offensive skills is all this is about. If McAvoy has similar puck skills, why hasn’t he ever scored at a similar rate to Fox? They’ve been playing on the same teams back to their days in Long Island.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Only reason Fox won it last year was cause he played 11 more games in a shortened season than Makar.

There’s no games played requirement. Seems like Fox was simply better. It’s not like the vote was that close either.

 

[J bo Jeans]

There’s no games played requirement. Seems like Fox was simply better. It’s not like the vote was that close either.

LOL games played is 100% something taken into account. And for Makar missing 20% of the season the vote was really close. Just delusion at this point.

 

[bsu]

Fox, one of the smartest defensemen I have ever seen.