A history of racist incidents (and false alarms) in hockey...

[VMBM]

The Swedish ref who was supposed to be in Game 8, Stalberg, was told to stay at his hotel room. Kompalla took his spot. This is very well documented material, nothing new. .

I can see this turning into a typical yes-no & pro USSR vs. pro CAN argument. However, a couple of points...

There's difference between the Russians wanting Kompalla and the Russians paying him to give them the advantage. If he really was bribed, though, I doubt that the Soviets were very happy with him; he didn't allow the Kharlamov goal in game 6 and he gave more penalties to the Russians in the crucial 3rd period of game 8. And as one who has seen the games many times, no one can convince me that the Canadians weren't playing very dirty in game 6; Kharlamov was being 'hunted' right from the start. This was also noticed by the what's-his-name color commentator (Brian Conacher?)...

BTW, Kompalla was notorious in Europe (WCs et al) for being an inconsistent and lousy ref.

As for Don Koharski, the Russians requested him and he made some questionable calls both ways for sure. We've torn apart the play where Bourque had been tripped up which resulted in a goal countless times.

Canada did have the advantage in other areas. Defense was one of them like you said, but how about determination? That is a fancy word for heart. By watching those games you can't see that more from them? It isn't as if the Russians didn't want to win, but one team or another by their actions always proves to be the one who decides to want it more. This is sports, plain and simple, and the accusations against a Canadian team's heart are much few and far between than other teams.

That they had to take out the best Russian player in 1972 will always taint the victory, like it or not. It was poster Zine who mentioned the often-made argument that what if some Russian player had taken out Gretzky in 1987? There's absolutely no way you would accept the very likely Canadian defeat, and would probably condemn anyone talking about Russian heart. Well, first of all, I don't think that the Canadian players would have let the Russians get out of that series alive (speaking metaphorically), if something like that happened to Gretzky. Can you imagine Mark Messier letting a thing like that go? But is that a question of heart or something a bit more sinister? I think the Soviets showed a little bit of that in the 1972 Summit Series after the Kharlamov incident. Boris Mikhailov was not the most gentlemanly player of all-time, but I doubt that he would have done what he did (kicking at Bergman) in the game 7, if he hadn't witnessed his team mate and friend being deliberately injured in the previous game.


The one argument I've heard from the Canadian players is that they had the advantage (heart, determination, whatever), because many of them had had to dig deeper in the NHL (during the Stanley Cup finals etc.) than the Russians ever had in international hockey. But hey, many of the Soviet players had been through some true wars on the ice already, most notably against Czechoslovakia (after 1968). They had experienced losses and the disappointment that goes with it (in 1969 they lost both of those emotion-filled games vs. CSSR, and in the 1972 WC in Prague, they lost the deciding game 2-3 and the world championship to Czechoslovakia). I'm sure they hated losing and were quite determined not to lose again.

I was not certainly indicating that the Canadians lack heart, but maybe I'd like to hear more proof that they have more heart than the Soviets, for example.

In 1976, Canada had clearly the best team on paper. It's not like they had their backs against the wall in any way. With that Team USSR and the state of Soviet hockey at the time, the Soviets had little chance of winning the tournament. Without Mikhailov, Petrov and Kharlamov, forget it. Czechoslovakia was a little better, but would have needed similar great goal-tending from Dzurilla (or Holecek) in the finals than in the round robin game, to make it really close.

1981, ahem. Did the Canadians possibly lose their heart in the infamous 3rd period? Not that everybody wouldn't after 5-1, 6-1 or so, though...

In the 1984 semi-final, it was a close game and could have gone either way. I think that is the one clutch game against the Russians in which the Canadians were definitely better, but was it about heart or did they just have a better game plan? I would think the latter. I don't think you can dismiss the home advantage they had either.

In 1987, Canada clearly had the better team on paper. KLM (or rather K and M) were in top form with Kasatonov and Fetisov, and the 2nd line (Khomutov-Bykov-Kamensky) was very efficient too. Semak scored a couple of key goals. Besides that, it was not a deep Soviet team, especially compared to the teams they had in 1979 and 1981-83. At crucial points of game 3, I think Canada got a little help from those questionable calls and some weak goals let in by Mylnikov. Canada certainly had the momentum going into the latter half of the 3rd period. The most - for want of a better word - heart the Canadians showed was probably that they didn't panic after the equalizer by Semak.

All in all, Canada certainly has a knack for winning big, close games, no one can dispute that. Is it because they have more heart? I don't know.

 

[VMBM]

Sorry if you had to read the first version of that previous post. For example, I totally forgot to finish/edit one paragraph. I hope the post is now readable.

 

[Big Phil]

Again, none of your examples proves a team has more heart; only that teams who were expected to win did, yet only by the smallest of margins. Your examples are essentially "look, can't you see it!"

If a team is (1) more talented than their opponents; and (2) 'wants it more' than their opponents; should they not be winning more than by the skin of their teeth?

Perhaps a lesser talented team with the ability to take the favorites to the utmost limit is the team with the most heart.

I mentioned this is an earlier post. If you were to bring up the names of the most "heart and soul" players in history, or even to be fair, let's say the current NHL today, would there not be an overwhelming amount be Canadian? Even more than the percentage of Canadians in the NHL? Would anyone think the Sedins have more heart than Brad Marchand, Mark Recchi, etc? That is my main point.

That they had to take out the best Russian player in 1972 will always taint the victory, like it or not. It was poster Zine who mentioned the often-made argument that what if some Russian player had taken out Gretzky in 1987? There's absolutely no way you would accept the very likely Canadian defeat, and would probably condemn anyone talking about Russian heart. Well, first of all, I don't think that the Canadian players would have let the Russians get out of that series alive (speaking metaphorically), if something like that happened to Gretzky. Can you imagine Mark Messier letting a thing like that go? But is that a question of heart or something a bit more sinister? I think the Soviets showed a little bit of that in the 1972 Summit Series after the Kharlamov incident. Boris Mikhailov was not the most gentlemanly player of all-time, but I doubt that he would have done what he did (kicking at Bergman) in the game 7, if he hadn't witnessed his team mate and friend being deliberately injured in the previous game.

It wasn't the prettiest thing in the world. As time has gone on it has looked worse to the point where even Paul Henderson once called it a "dark point" in the tournament.

But Kharlamov did play in Game 8 remember and actually got an assist. He may not have quite been the same but does the Clarke slash even things up with all the crap the Canadians put up with in Russia? The phone calls in the middle of the night? The questionable officiating. Their food being stolen? Bad things happened on both sides.

The one argument I've heard from the Canadian players is that they had the advantage (heart, determination, whatever), because many of them had had to dig deeper in the NHL (during the Stanley Cup finals etc.) than the Russians ever had in international hockey. But hey, many of the Soviet players had been through some true wars on the ice already, most notably against Czechoslovakia (after 1968). They had experienced losses and the disappointment that goes with it (in 1969 they lost both of those emotion-filled games vs. CSSR, and in the 1972 WC in Prague, they lost the deciding game 2-3 and the world championship to Czechoslovakia). I'm sure they hated losing and were quite determined not to lose again.

Yes I think that has a lot to do with it. The "never-say-die" attitude is enstilled in Canadians from a young age. The physical tolls from years and years of NHL playoffs helped as well. Not panicking after losing Game 1 for example, or even being down 3-1-1 in the series. That takes heart, leadership and confidence all rolled into one.

 

[Killion]

Hubris.

 

[Zine]

I mentioned this is an earlier post. If you were to bring up the names of the most "heart and soul" players in history, or even to be fair, let's say the current NHL today, would there not be an overwhelming amount be Canadian? Even more than the percentage of Canadians in the NHL? Would anyone think the Sedins have more heart than Brad Marchand, Mark Recchi, etc? That is my main point.

The NHL? Really?
Of course there's more 'heart and soul' Canadians in the NHL, it's a North American league tailored to the NA game. Its also a league where not only is it easier for a North American to succeed, but also assert himself. And, quite frankly, I think the Stanley Cup means more to your average Canadian than anyone else.
However this doesn't mean that everything being equal, Canadians play with more heart.

For instance, you tend to see the opposite in Europe, particularly the KHL where many a Canadian has looked like a deer in headlights, much less shows any trace of heart. You also saw quite a bit of it amongst North American NHLers in Europe during the lockout.

Also, relative to talent level, I don't think Canadians show anymore heart than anyone else in international competitions.

 

[jkrx]

Let's not forget Burke's obvious racism when he suspended Nazarov for 13 games when he lightly shoved a linesman when he just before that only gave Matt Johnson 3 games for throwing a linesman to the ice. That was disgusting.

 

[jkrx]

I mentioned this is an earlier post. If you were to bring up the names of the most "heart and soul" players in history, or even to be fair, let's say the current NHL today, would there not be an overwhelming amount be Canadian? Even more than the percentage of Canadians in the NHL? Would anyone think the Sedins have more heart than Brad Marchand, Mark Recchi, etc? That is my main point

Weren't you also the person who thought homosexuals wouldn't play hockey because it didnt suit their persona? Your example is completely biased. Should I give you a reversed one? Who has more heart, Forsberg or Daigle?

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Your example is completely biased. Should I give you a reversed one? Who has more heart, Forsberg or Daigle?

Indeed. Cherry-picking examples isn't going to make a point. And the inclusion of a dirty, bush-league player like Brad Marchand (IMO, and I'm normally a champion of small players) on the list of "hearty" Canadians might say something about what Big Phil considers to be heart. I might agree that players like Marchand (or Sean Avery) are more common among Canadians; but that's not a good thing.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Abuse of Officials

Let's not forget Burke's obvious racism when he suspended Nazarov for 13 games when he lightly shoved a linesman when he just before that only gave Matt Johnson 3 games for throwing a linesman to the ice. That was disgusting.

Tom Lysiak, Paul Holmgren, Terry O'Reilly and others would serve as counter points to your analogy:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1135886/index.htm

Rules change and interpretations / applications vary.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I mentioned this is an earlier post. If you were to bring up the names of the most "heart and soul" players in history, or even to be fair, let's say the current NHL today, would there not be an overwhelming amount be Canadian? Even more than the percentage of Canadians in the NHL? Would anyone think the Sedins have more heart than Brad Marchand, Mark Recchi, etc? That is my main point.

As others have said, you are cherrypicking the players you compare. I bet if you compared the Sedins to Joe Thornton, and Marchand and Recchi to guys like Henrik Zetterberg and Patrik Elias, it wouldn't be so clear.

I agree that most of the "heart and soul" 3rd and 4th liners are Canadians, but how much of that is because if you're a European who would be 3rd or 4th line talent in the NHL, you're just as likely to stay in Europe and be a star?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Indeed. Cherry-picking examples isn't going to make a point. And the inclusion of a dirty, bush-league player like Brad Marchand (IMO, and I'm normally a champion of small players) on the list of "hearty" Canadians might say something about what Big Phil considers to be heart. I might agree that players like Marchand (or Sean Avery) are more common among Canadians; but that's not a good thing.

Are you really comparing Marchand to Avery?

Marchand's a yapper more than anything else.

Marchand had only 51 PIMs last year. Avery averages close to 200 PIMs a season.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Are you really comparing Marchand to Avery?

Marchand's a yapper more than anything else.

Marchand had only 51 PIMs last year. Avery averages close to 200 PIMs a season.

Not numbers; style. He doesn't fight and doesn't take as many penalties as Avery, but he seems to have about the same amount of respect for his opponents that Avery does. Which is to say, not very much.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

I agree that most of the "heart and soul" 3rd and 4th liners are Canadians, but how much of that is because if you're a European who would be 3rd or 4th line talent in the NHL, you're just as likely to stay in Europe and be a star?

I think this is a huge factor in the discussion.

 

[Killion]

Of course. And lets not forget here gang that the ranks of pro hockey have been dominated by Canadians for generations, so its only natural that you'll find an over-preponderance of The Good, the Bad & the Ugly one can point to in any of those 3 categories in comparison to Euro's & former Soviet Blok players. For every Esa Tikkanen, Canucks can pretty much give you one or ten dozen better at being Bad & or Ugly... sheer volume. Numbers.

 

[jkrx]

Tom Lysiak, Paul Holmgren, Terry O'Reilly and others would serve as counter points to your analogy:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1135886/index.htm

Rules change and interpretations / applications vary.

Not really. As far as I remember those incidents occured before and after a rule change. This happened during the same season with no rule change.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Not numbers; style. He doesn't fight and doesn't take as many penalties as Avery, but he seems to have about the same amount of respect for his opponents that Avery does. Which is to say, not very much.

Avery is in a class with Dale Hunter and Ken Linesman and Matt Cooke.

Marchand is not even close to that level.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Respect

Not numbers; style. He doesn't fight and doesn't take as many penalties as Avery, but he seems to have about the same amount of respect for his opponents that Avery does. Which is to say, not very much.

Please define and quantify respect before the discussion can continue.

I may be in agreement with you on certain points if defined and clarified. Huge gap otherwise especially between crude,obnoxious and dangerous.

 

[thehumanpanda]

Don Cherry is very old and from a different era. Actually, he's pretty open minded and liberal compared to other people his age who can get a little nasty. You should have heard my grandmother talk before she passed. Don Cherry sounds like Ghandi compared to other people his age. I don't mind Cherry, he's entertaining, he knows his hockey, I'm never heard drop the N-bomb , etc. anyway.

As for this thread, I was at a Calgary Hitman's game in 2008 and the Sask. Blades were in town, and they had a black player on their team. One single Calgary fan shouted the N-bomb once when he was skating toward the bench. I don't know if he heard it but he just sat down and waited for his shift. Absolutely nobody retaliated or said anything to the N-bomber.

I was at a Flames game the night before and um let's just say the Hitman's clientele is a little different from attendees at an NHL game.

 

[Rob]

I can remember back in the late 90's during one the World Championships the IIHWC site had an article "Was Fred Flinstone a Canadian?". Basically comparing Canadian hockey players to Neanderthals.

Was that bigotry? I don't think so.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Please define and quantify respect before the discussion can continue.

I doubt you can quantify style. I'm not really interested in attempting to quantify my opinion. I see Marchand as a dirty, whining, diving, bush-league player. I realize others don't. But to me he seems just as bad as Max Lapierre, who Bruins fans vilified during the Finals for behaving in ways that Marchand does himself.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Don Cherry is very old and from a different era. Actually, he's pretty open minded and liberal compared to other people his age who can get a little nasty. You should have heard my grandmother talk before she passed. Don Cherry sounds like Ghandi compared to other people his age.

Some other people of his age, surely. But that's a pretty low bar for someone you're broadcasting across the country.

 

[XX]

Has the Doan-is-a-racist sham been mentioned yet?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Rather Simple

I doubt you can quantify style. I'm not really interested in attempting to quantify my opinion. I see Marchand as a dirty, whining, diving, bush-league player. I realize others don't. But to me he seems just as bad as Max Lapierre, who Bruins fans vilified during the Finals for behaving in ways that Marchand does himself.

Style is easy to define and quantify. Goalies alone you have butterfly, stand-up, reflex. The it just becomes a counting exercise. Defensemen you could start with - stay at home, rushing, physical, finesse, etc.

Let's see about the rest.

Dirty - Gordie Howe was with his elbows so Marchand is in fine company there.

Whining - sounds like characterizations of Wayne Gretzky, Sidney Crosby and Mario Lemieux. Again Marchand ranks with the elite.

Diving - hmmmm, Bill Barber, the Sedins to name a few quality players.

Bush league - the many, not drafted players, that worked their way up from the low minors to play in the NHL - Francis Boullion who recently had an arena named after him in Montreal.

Basic problem with Marchand is that he is reckless and dangerous on the ice - slew footing goes beyond Howe's elbows, the whining, diving, or background. From behind, when a player is vulnerable, causing out of control falls and contact with the boards.

Penalty minutes do not matter. Lady Byng numbers or goon numbers.
There are certain things that are not acceptable - slew footing, kicking, hits to the head are at the top.

 

[Zine]

Don Cherry is very old and from a different era. Actually, he's pretty open minded and liberal compared to other people his age who can get a little nasty. You should have heard my grandmother talk before she passed. Don Cherry sounds like Ghandi compared to other people his age. I don't mind Cherry, he's entertaining, he knows his hockey, I'm never heard drop the N-bomb , etc. anyway.

Cherry is an entertainer....however, he's one whose had to become a parody of his former self in order to stay entertaining.
I don't mind Cherry. What I do mind is people that take him seriously.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Basic problem with Marchand is that he is reckless and dangerous on the ice - slew footing goes beyond Howe's elbows, the whining, diving, or background. From behind, when a player is vulnerable, causing out of control falls and contact with the boards.

That's basically what I mean by bush league. I don't mean where the player played, but how he plays. If he would be at home in Slap Shot, he's bush league.

I agree that PIMs don't matter. As for quantifying how reckless Marchand is, I'd say he's about a 9.