Post-Game Talk: #68 | Flyers at Bruins | March 16, 2024 | Flyers lose 6-5

[JojoTheWhale]

The same metrics that tell you Seeler/Walker have excelled in their roles say that Drysdale has not been an NHL defender (I know you know this)

You are a brave man and I hope your internet day is much better than I expect it to be.

 

[thedjpd]

They turned down a 1st and 2nd. They don't actually want to trade him.

This rumor has been once source said in passing. They don't want to trade him is true; I don't dispute that. I do dispute that this is some undeniable fact when said in passing by a single source - even this trade deadlines, very few trades that happened were exactly as reported.

So you can choose to believe that it was Laughton for a 1st and 2nd straight, and now suddenly they can't even get a 1st even though he had a poor start and has become basically the same player he was last year after his "hot streak" - but everybody had Walker going to WPG, DAL, EDM (reported by this same person) 100% - nobody even had a clue about COL. Nobody had a clue about Gauthier. Nobody had a clue about Provorov. The three biggest moves in DB's history not a single reporter got anything right about the details or even the trade itself until right before it happened. Agree with their assessments or not but I think this regime has at least proved capable of controlling the narrative and what goes out and what doesn't.

There's 3x ample evidence for these events that reporters didn't have a clue what the deals were, when they were happening. But the one time a single reporter has a 'mention rumor' I guess we all just accept it as fact. I just don't think so - and it's been modified, tweaked, changed multiple times since then. It was supposed to include a major cap dump according to Berube, it switched to Hayes from Laughton, etc.

I do agree they don't want to trade him; philosophically you can argue whether that's right or not or what the threshold his for his value - but one single mention on a rumor isn't a fact, though clearly treated as such.

 

[Beef Invictus]

This rumor has been once source said in passing. They don't want to trade him is true; I don't dispute that. I do dispute that this is some undeniable fact when said in passing by a single source - even this trade deadlines, very few trades that happened were exactly as reported.

So you can choose to believe that it was Laughton for a 1st and 2nd straight, and now suddenly they can't even get a 1st even though he had a poor start and has become basically the same player he was last year after his "hot streak" - but everybody had Walker going to WPG, DAL, EDM (reported by this same person) 100% - nobody even had a clue about COL. Nobody had a clue about Gauthier. Nobody had a clue about Provorov. The three biggest moves in DB's history not a single reporter got anything right about the details or even the trade itself until right before it happened. Agree with their assessments or not but I think this regime has at least proved capable of controlling the narrative and what goes out and what doesn't.

There's 3x ample evidence for these events that reporters didn't have a clue what the deals were, when they were happening. But the one time a single reporter has a 'mention rumor' I guess we all just accept it as fact. I just don't think so - and it's been modified, tweaked, changed multiple times since then. It was supposed to include a major cap dump according to Berube, it switched to Hayes from Laughton, etc.

I do agree they don't want to trade him; philosophically you can argue whether that's right or not or what the threshold his for his value - but one single mention on a rumor isn't a fact, though clearly treated as such.

It was a good source. The Flyers simply are not serious about moving him. They'll pretend to try as part of their lie to the fans. But they're simply going to continue setting an unreasonable price for him and saying "oh well, nobody wants to pay! We tried! Rebuild! (hey players we aren't rebuilding don't listen to us we are lying to the fans)"

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

It must be nice living in a world where the garbage spewed by talking heads on sports talk shows is directly marketed to you.

So Pronger's comments were orchestrated by the media?

 

[flyersnorth]

He's been "on the block", and we don't know that Briere didn't set a price intentionally higher than he's worth so he could have the excuse of "well no one met our asking price so we kept him". It's already been reported they turned down a 1st plus for him this summer.

He said exactly that in a recent interview I saw.

The offer for Laughton would have to be above "fair market value" because he's valuable to the Flyers for more than just the on-ice performance.

 

[BritainStix]

This rumor has been once source said in passing. They don't want to trade him is true; I don't dispute that. I do dispute that this is some undeniable fact when said in passing by a single source - even this trade deadlines, very few trades that happened were exactly as reported.

So you can choose to believe that it was Laughton for a 1st and 2nd straight, and now suddenly they can't even get a 1st even though he had a poor start and has become basically the same player he was last year after his "hot streak" - but everybody had Walker going to WPG, DAL, EDM (reported by this same person) 100% - nobody even had a clue about COL. Nobody had a clue about Gauthier. Nobody had a clue about Provorov. The three biggest moves in DB's history not a single reporter got anything right about the details or even the trade itself until right before it happened. Agree with their assessments or not but I think this regime has at least proved capable of controlling the narrative and what goes out and what doesn't.

There's 3x ample evidence for these events that reporters didn't have a clue what the deals were, when they were happening. But the one time a single reporter has a 'mention rumor' I guess we all just accept it as fact. I just don't think so - and it's been modified, tweaked, changed multiple times since then. It was supposed to include a major cap dump according to Berube, it switched to Hayes from Laughton, etc.

I do agree they don't want to trade him; philosophically you can argue whether that's right or not or what the threshold his for his value - but one single mention on a rumor isn't a fact, though clearly treated as such.

That's not how hfboards works. You take a slither of a rumour from a single source, and extrapolate it into a multitude of scenarios, so that you can use this information to further your point about the organisation/player/GM/coach.

Rinse repeat.

The fact that the Flyers camp has been tighter than a ducks arse as far as leaks under Briere doesn't matter one bit. Nothings changed, we should all hate this team, organisation and ourselves.

 

[Magua]

“I’m told the Flyers have been engaged with the Blues, among other teams, on Laughton…I know the Blues put on the table one of pick 25 or 29 AND a 2nd round pick. I was told a 1st + a 2nd.”

That's Frank Seravalli. Not some schlub grifter. It's not like the Flyers didn't openly admit they wouldn't trade Laughton for even fair value. You don't even have to read the tea leaves -- it's spelled out on the foil wrapper.

The fact that the Flyers camp has been tighter than a ducks arse as far as leaks under Briere doesn't matter one bit.

That's hogwash, my dude. The Flyers are so proud of themselves for keeping Gauthier a secret, under some delusion it would sink his value, but aside from that, there's been nothing tight about it.

We know Sanheim was almost traded for Krug, if he waived his NTC. We know they wanted to re-sign Seeler and Walker. We know they wanted a depth veteran defender and, lo and behold, Johnson is a Flyer a day later. We know they tried to trade Gauthier for 5th overall or Byram and that he had an 18-20 team trade list. They openly admit how much they want RHD, and somehow every premium asset has gone into them. They've pretty much telegraphed everything.

 

[thedjpd]

“I’m told the Flyers have been engaged with the Blues, among other teams, on Laughton…I know the Blues put on the table one of pick 25 or 29 AND a 2nd round pick. I was told a 1st + a 2nd.”

That's Frank Seravalli. Not some schlub grifter. It's not like the Flyers didn't openly admit they wouldn't trade Laughton for even fair value. You don't even have to read the tea leaves -- it's spelled out on the foil wrapper.



That's hogwash, my dude. The Flyers are so proud of themselves for keeping Gauthier a secret, under some delusion it would sink his value, but aside from that, there's been nothing tight about it.

We know Sanheim was almost traded for Krug, if he waived his NTC. We know they wanted to re-sign Seeler and Walker. We know they wanted a depth veteran defender and, lo and behold, Johnson is a Flyer a day later. We know they tried to trade Gauthier for 5th overall or Byram and that he had an 18-20 team trade list. They openly admit how much they want RHD, and somehow every premium asset has gone into them. They've pretty much telegraphed everything.

On the table does not mean that's the entire deal. It just means it was just that - on the table. Was that the whole deal? Multiple other sources have confirmed that it was part of a larger deal. And not one other source confirmed Seravalli's thoughts on it. It doesn't invalidate it; just means that we don't actually know the full story. Supposedly, it may have even been linked directly to the Sanheim deal. I've even read that the full scope of the deal was 1st + 2nd + Krug for Laughton + Sanheim. It may be true; it may not be. But it's certainly not a fact. Frank Seravalli also had Walker to EDM, DAL or WPG. He did not have a single inkling to COL. Didn't even mention them as a possibility. Nobody is disputing his reliability as a reporter; but inside sources are just that - possibilities - but we never get the full information, so claiming those as fact is disingenuous.

We know Sanheim was almost traded for Krug because that leak came from the Krug's agent when he was asked to waive his NTC. You know what we don't know? What the exact conditions of the deals were, what the other parts were, etc. Because nobody except the two GMs do, and they won't talk about it. The only reason we know those were two pieces was from Krug's side, not even the Flyers. The Flyers can control what they say; they can't control what other teams and players say/do. This has been well confirmed that the leak came on that side.

The Gauthier trade? Not one person in the media had any clue. We only know they tried to trade for Byram after the deal was already complete! Friedman reported it after the deal was done and "did some digging" that they tried to trade him last year. Not even sure how this is relevant.

There are many disputable things; whether they overvalue Laughton, or are really rebuilding and not tanking; no issue on those types of discussions. But 3 examples where folks had little to no idea of deals happening is a trend - means that at least, from that perspective, this org does it well.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

DB said it didnt matter the return they werent interested in trading him..

they only listened to offers out of respect.

Laughton is a foundational pillar to this "culture" team

ps i hear DB didnt know about Johhansens injury when he accepted the trade..

#sameasiteverwas...

this Org. is the dumping ground for broken toys and worn out old dogs

Great Post!

 

[GapToothedWonder]

So Pronger's comments were orchestrated by the media?

This is your original comment.

"That reminds me of how the Flyers lacked the drive and professionalism during the Richards/Carter era until Pronger came... and then Richards pouted when Pronger called him out... so it's not that easy as "flicking a switch" (as Richards would say) and changing the culture if you have talent."

Where do you say anything about "Prongers comments"? What quote are you referring too? Please include a source of the quote in your reply as well.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

This is your original comment.

"That reminds me of how the Flyers lacked the drive and professionalism during the Richards/Carter era until Pronger came... and then Richards pouted when Pronger called him out... so it's not that easy as "flicking a switch" (as Richards would say) and changing the culture if you have talent."

Where do you say anything about "Prongers comments"? What quote are you referring too? Please include a source of the quote in your reply as well.

His comment was along the lines of "You can either be a party boy or be a Stanley Cup champion, but not both".

Everyone except you, knew at the time who that comment was pointed towards.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Multiple other sources have confirmed that it was part of a larger deal.

Supposedly, it may have even been linked directly to the Sanheim deal.

Have a source for this? I'm always open to new info.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Party boys have often become Stanley Cup champions. Hell, the two party boys in question won Cups. It happens pretty much every year.


Teams win with party boys. They win with "poor culture" guys and intra-team tension. This is true in hockey, it is true in every sport, it always has been and always will be. The "You've gotta skin your face off on the grindstone and anything less means you're a loser" narrative is just old hockeymen fantasizing about how they pretend things were back in their day. They were never that way. It's the kind of nonsense and thinking this team obsesses over nonstop and which holds them back as they pursue things that almost don't matter at all instead of the things that very much do. They're certain the irrelevant stuff is more important than the relevant stuff.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

His comment was along the lines of "You can either be a party boy or be a Stanley Cup champion, but not both".

Everyone except you, knew at the time who that comment was pointed towards.

So no source other then your memory?

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Party boys have often become Stanley Cup champions. Hell, the two party boys in question won Cups. It happens pretty much every year.


Teams win with party boys. They win with "poor culture" guys and intra-team tension. This is true in hockey, it is true in every sport, it always has been and always will be. The "You've gotta skin your face off on the grindstone and anything less means you're a loser" narrative is just old hockeymen fantasizing about how they pretend things were back in their day. They were never that way. It's the kind of nonsense and thinking this team obsesses over nonstop and which holds them back as they pursue things that almost don't matter at all instead of the things that very much do. They're certain the irrelevant stuff is more important than the relevant stuff.

well that wasnt very positive..

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Party boys have often become Stanley Cup champions. Hell, the two party boys in question won Cups. It happens pretty much every year.


Teams win with party boys. They win with "poor culture" guys and intra-team tension. This is true in hockey, it is true in every sport, it always has been and always will be. The "You've gotta skin your face off on the grindstone and anything less means you're a loser" narrative is just old hockeymen fantasizing about how they pretend things were back in their day. They were never that way. It's the kind of nonsense and thinking this team obsesses over nonstop and which holds them back as they pursue things that almost don't matter at all instead of the things that very much do. They're certain the irrelevant stuff is more important than the relevant stuff.

I'm sure Clarke and the rest of the Bullies were going to Rexy's to discuss philosophy. They couldn't have been partying because that means they couldn't have been back to back champions.

Anyone want to bet I get a response saying things were different back then or some other BS like that?

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

So no source other then your memory?

It was around the time of "Dry Island", but I must be making that up as well. Anyways, you can choose to believe that Richards didn't have any substance abuse problems which affected his leadership abilities while in Philly.

I'm sure Clarke and the rest of the Bullies were going to Rexy's to discuss philosophy. They couldn't have been partying because that means they couldn't have been back to back champions.

Anyone want to bet I get a response saying things were different back then or some other BS like that?

Different time and era, players used to smoke and get obese during summers and then use training camp as a way to get in-shape...much different nowadays.

 

[Appleyard]

Party boys have often become Stanley Cup champions. Hell, the two party boys in question won Cups. It happens pretty much every year.


Teams win with party boys. They win with "poor culture" guys and intra-team tension. This is true in hockey, it is true in every sport, it always has been and always will be. The "You've gotta skin your face off on the grindstone and anything less means you're a loser" narrative is just old hockeymen fantasizing about how they pretend things were back in their day. They were never that way. It's the kind of nonsense and thinking this team obsesses over nonstop and which holds them back as they pursue things that almost don't matter at all instead of the things that very much do. They're certain the irrelevant stuff is more important than the relevant stuff.

Every team that ever won anything from peewee to the Olympics had guys who hated each others guts... guys who drank too much (maybe too much soda at peewee, but in some cases booze too)... guys who put on weight in off-season and don't have a great diet...

put 22 random men in a room with guys from different sides of the world, with different cultures, some from big cities, some from farms, some rich, some poorer, some left wing, some right wing...

and it does not matter if it is hockey or tiddlywinks, there will be cliques and there will be some bad blood.

Some guys will drink too much, some guys will smoke pot in their summers, some guys will be straight edge, some guys will put on 15lbs in the off-season...

But so long as they can perform on ice to a better level than the other teams it does not really matter.

 

[Beef Invictus]

well that wasnt very positive..

WHERE DID I SAY IT IS BAD HMMM

 

[Beef Invictus]

It was around the time of "Dry Island", but I must be making that up as well. Anyways, you can choose to believe that Richards didn't have any substance abuse problems which affected his leadership abilities while in Philly.



Different time and era, players used to smoke and get obese during summers and then use training camp as a way to get in-shape...much different nowadays.

How times change, eh

 

[Beef Invictus]

Every team that ever won anything from peewee to the Olympics had guys who hated each others guts... guys who drank too much (maybe too much soda at peewee, but in some cases booze too)... guys who put on weight in off-season and don't have a great diet...

put 22 random men in a room with guys from different sides of the world, with different cultures, some from big cities, some from farms, some rich, some poorer, some left wing, some right wing...

and it does not matter if it is hockey or tiddlywinks, there will be cliques and there will be some bad blood.

Some guys will drink too much, some guys will smoke pot in their summers, some guys will be straight edge, some guys will put on 15lbs in the off-season...

But so long as they can perform on ice to a better level than the other teams it does not really matter.

Unless you are Ty Cobb, then players in every sport will happily make and facilitate play with guys they'd like to choke to death. And even Cobb had all-time great base running chemistry with a dude he would otherwise shove out of the way to steal catches from. All that matters is making the play, scoring, and winning. In all sports.

The "culture" thing is so overblown, and in the case of the Flyers it sure seems like a cudgel they use to generate scapegoats. It probably maximizes friction and misery in the end.

 

[Appleyard]

Unless you are Ty Cobb, then players in every sport will happily make and facilitate play with guys they'd like to choke to death. And even Cobb had all-time great base running chemistry with a dude he would otherwise shove out of the way to steal catches from. All that matters is making the play, scoring, and winning. In all sports.

The "culture" thing is so overblown, and in the case of the Flyers it sure seems like a cudgel they use to generate scapegoats. It probably maximizes friction and misery in the end.

I mean, if it was all about "culture" contrary to outside belief JvR would still be here aha.

Guy was loved by everyone, extremely respected around the league, is a fantastic guy by all accounts, and - believe it or not - Torts actually loved the guy too.

But no, there are balances at play in every sport team.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I mean, if it was all about "culture" contrary to outside belief JvR would still be here aha.

Guy was loved by everyone, extremely respected around the league, is a fantastic guy by all accounts, and - believe it or not - Torts actually loved the guy too.

But no, there are balances at play in every sport team.

JVR went completely outside his ideal skillset and played completely contrary to his strengths to satisfy Tortorella and overall I thought he did a pretty damned good job of it, too.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

WHERE DID I SAY IT IS BAD HMMM

#triggered

 

[GapToothedWonder]

It was around the time of "Dry Island", but I must be making that up as well. Anyways, you can choose to believe that Richards didn't have any substance abuse problems which affected his leadership abilities while in Philly.



Different time and era, players used to smoke and get obese during summers and then use training camp as a way to get in-shape...much different nowadays.

Well if we are discussing players in leadership roles and the rumors surrounding them, didn't Pronger have to leave Edmonton because his wife demanded they move after Pronger got a beat reporter pregnant? Or that one doesn't count for reasons? Maybe they were just discussing philosophy as well.

Was Briere one of the party boys while he was in Philly? Didn't he get caught hanging out with pornstars after divorcing his wife? Probably just some more philosophy discussions. Sounds like the type of guy you want guiding a leadership rebuild.

Plus god knows how many stories there are about Jonesy.

But in the end you and I are in agreement anyways. I said the Flyers got the hardest part out of the way, they have a workman culture, that is so hard to find today. They just need to pick up a few simple pieces like a top 5 winger, defenseman, a top 3 goalie tandem and another top 15 winger and they will basically be Boston.

P.S. absolutely love that you basically copy pasted what I wrote in the grey out part of my message.