Prospect Info: 5th - 137: Wings select Jordan Sambrook (D)

[Winger98]

I think the house cleaning has to start in detroit. The problem isn't Lashoff or McIlrath, it's the five mediocre vets in Detroit and two less than mediocre younger guys, all of whom the organization hasn't been willing to move on from. If we don't sign Daley, does anyone think that really alters where the Wings finished the season? But it does likely mean that Saarijarvi gets consistent playing time in GR all year. Or if we had dealt Jensen/XO and had Russo or Hicketts up in their spot, it doesn't matter who you want to pick as the guy shipped off the island. The way the roster would slide around is the same, and it means guys in GR get more minutes, bigger roles, and more responsibility. Which I think would be a good thing.

Holland talked about moving guys into Detroit quicker and getting away from the over ripening thing, this is another area we'll see if he means it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I think the house cleaning has to start in detroit. The problem isn't Lashoff or McIlrath, it's the five mediocre vets in Detroit and two less than mediocre younger guys, all of whom the organization hasn't been willing to move on from. If we don't sign Daley, does anyone think that really alters where the Wings finished the season? But it does likely mean that Saarijarvi gets consistent playing time in GR all year. Or if we had dealt Jensen/XO and had Russo or Hicketts up in their spot, it doesn't matter who you want to pick as the guy shipped off the island. The way the roster would slide around is the same, and it means guys in GR get more minutes, bigger roles, and more responsibility. Which I think would be a good thing.

Holland talked about moving guys into Detroit quicker and getting away from the over ripening thing, this is another area we'll see if he means it.

I think too much is made of things like Saarijarvi sitting out some games. He played about the same amount of games in the AHL as Liljegren, and no one seems to think his development was stalled because he rotated out of the lineup. In addition Vili got some games in Toledo. No one really cares if a guy is in the NCAA playing 30-40 games, but if someone sits out a few games in a 70+ game season it's suddenly a problem. Learning how to actually earn icetime is important for development as well. The problem isn't that we have mediocre vets in Detroit, it's that we're waiting for kids to come in and actually prove themselves to be better options. Hopefully Cholo, Hronek and/or Hicketts can do that next year.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I think too much is made of things like Saarijarvi sitting out some games. He played about the same amount of games in the AHL as Liljegren, and no one seems to think his development was stalled because he rotated out of the lineup. In addition Vili got some games in Toledo. No one really cares if a guy is in the NCAA playing 30-40 games, but if someone sits out a few games in a 70+ game season it's suddenly a problem. Learning how to actually earn icetime is important for development as well. The problem isn't that we have mediocre vets in Detroit, it's that we're waiting for kids to come in and actually prove themselves to be better options. Hopefully Cholo, Hronek and/or Hicketts can do that next year.

draft year difference.... two years

 

[Pavels Dog]

draft year difference.... two years

Don’t see how it matters, 1st round pick vs 3rd round pick. Both were rookies this year.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Don’t see how it matters, 1st round pick vs 3rd round pick. Both were rookies this year.

the difference is first round picks shouldnt need as much development time

I expect and am okay with lindstrom needing more time than lets say bouchard

and i would expect the spot on the roster to be waiting for him to fill to do just that

 

[Redder Winger]

I think too much is made of things like Saarijarvi sitting out some games. He played about the same amount of games in the AHL as Liljegren, and no one seems to think his development was stalled because he rotated out of the lineup. In addition Vili got some games in Toledo. No one really cares if a guy is in the NCAA playing 30-40 games, but if someone sits out a few games in a 70+ game season it's suddenly a problem. Learning how to actually earn icetime is important for development as well. The problem isn't that we have mediocre vets in Detroit, it's that we're waiting for kids to come in and actually prove themselves to be better options. Hopefully Cholo, Hronek and/or Hicketts can do that next year.

People say "Oh, we shouldn't be in the NHL if he's going to be a 4th liner. He needs to be in the AHL getting big time minutes." But then when he's in the AHL, it doesn't matter if he's getting scratched so the coach can play a bunch of guys with no future in the organization.

Saarijarvi will be 21 in May. Lijegren 19 at the end of April.
That's a huge difference.

Searching google, I can find at least 2 times where Liljegren missed with injuries.

 

[Pavels Dog]

People say "Oh, we shouldn't be in the NHL if he's going to be a 4th liner. He needs to be in the AHL getting big time minutes." But then when he's in the AHL, it doesn't matter if he's getting scratched so the coach can play a bunch of guys with no future in the organization.

Saarijarvi will be 21 in May. Lijegren 19 at the end of April.
That's a huge difference.

Searching google, I can find at least 2 times where Liljegren missed with injuries.

The point was just about playing ~50 games instead of ~70 is not something that ruins development. Or is development only hindered by being a healthy scratch as opposed to missing time with injuries? Maybe it would have been better if Saarijarvi’s d+3 mirrored Gostisbehere’s (7 games played total)?

The pro game is supposed to be about competing with actual pros. If these kids dream of being NHL pros they better be able to outplay AHL pros. Saarijarvi should get a bigger role next season, being a big time player as a rookie would be great but it’s not the end of the world that he wasn’t.

 

[kliq]

the difference is first round picks shouldnt need as much development time

I expect and am okay with lindstrom needing more time than lets say bouchard

and i would expect the spot on the roster to be waiting for him to fill to do just that

In theory that makes sense, but it all depends on the draft year.

 

[kliq]

People say "Oh, we shouldn't be in the NHL if he's going to be a 4th liner. He needs to be in the AHL getting big time minutes." But then when he's in the AHL, it doesn't matter if he's getting scratched so the coach can play a bunch of guys with no future in the organization.

Saarijarvi will be 21 in May. Lijegren 19 at the end of April.
That's a huge difference.

Searching google, I can find at least 2 times where Liljegren missed with injuries.

I didn't realize Saarijarvi was being scratched frequently until recently, I can't say I love that.

 

[Redder Winger]

The point was just about playing ~50 games instead of ~70 is not something that ruins development. Or is development only hindered by being a healthy scratch as opposed to missing time with injuries? Maybe it would have been better if Saarijarvi’s d+3 mirrored Gostisbehere’s (7 games played total)?

The pro game is supposed to be about competing with actual pros. If these kids dream of being NHL pros they better be able to outplay AHL pros. Saarijarvi should get a bigger role next season, being a big time player as a rookie would be great but it’s not the end of the world that he wasn’t.

No, it's not the end of the world.
It's just wasted time.

And for what?
So Trevor Daley can help us finish 5th from the bottom?

 

[Pavels Dog]

No, it's not the end of the world.
It's just wasted time.

And for what?
So Trevor Daley can help us finish 5th from the bottom?

Well.. should we make roster decisions all to get a depth prospect who can’t outplay Brian Lashoff more icetime?

 

[Claypool]

I didn't realize Saarijarvi was being scratched frequently until recently, I can't say I love that.

He's played over 50 games in his first pro season. It's fine.

People also need to realize that out of Hronek, Hicketts, Saarijarvi, Russo, Cholowski, Sulak, Sambrook, Lindstrom, etc., probably only two of them will be legitimate NHL defensemen. Not all of these guys are going to make the dance so don't fall in love with any of them.

 

[Redder Winger]

Well.. should we make roster decisions all to get a depth prospect who can’t outplay Brian Lashoff more icetime?

Absolutely.
If you're rebuilding, what is the advantage of adding a 34-year-old defenseman to an already old defense.
Why not play XO 70 games and Hicketts 60 games?

What's the worse that could happen?

When weighing pros and cons, it sure is easy for me to see the pros:
Pros:
Important development at the NHL level of young defensemen.
Better chance to assess the young D at the NHL ability.
Creates more opportunities for playing time at the AHL level for the prospects there.

 

[Winger98]

People say "Oh, we shouldn't be in the NHL if he's going to be a 4th liner. He needs to be in the AHL getting big time minutes." But then when he's in the AHL, it doesn't matter if he's getting scratched so the coach can play a bunch of guys with no future in the organization.

Saarijarvi will be 21 in May. Lijegren 19 at the end of April.
That's a huge difference.

Searching google, I can find at least 2 times where Liljegren missed with injuries.

Liljegren also missed time to go play in the U20. He wasn't getting benched or buried to lesser minutes because of his play or that the club is overstocked ahead of him.

I don't really buy into the whole "they've got to earn their minutes" argument for these guys not playing or not being promoted, either. We've seen too many guys get the opportunities only when injuries made room for them to still give it a carte blanch nod. Also, I think it's just plain unrealistic to expect a 21 year old to come into camp and out play many vets, which includes just being as stable and unflappable. There are some things that only come with experience, and until a guy is given it, he's not going to have it.

There has to be a point where, with each prospect, you say they've learned what they can in the lower league and you either promote them or cut bait. But the Wings have had a habit of just hanging onto them and letting them fail upwards. Even if we're signing Daley, the truth is we probably should have just walked from one of XO/Jensen and promoted Russo/Hicketts, who I think both had shown they had taken what they can from the AHL. At some point, we're not preparing these guys to be NHLers, just better AHLers.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Absolutely.
If you're rebuilding, what is the advantage of adding a 34-year-old defenseman to an already old defense.
Why not play XO 70 games and Hicketts 60 games?

The easy answer is because they’re not good enough. Hicketts has time (and seemed to have an important development year in a defensive role in GR), but I believe they’ve seen enough of XO.

Liljegren also missed time to go play in the U20. He wasn't getting benched or buried to lesser minutes because of his play or that the club is overstocked ahead of him.

I don't really buy into the whole "they've got to earn their minutes" argument for these guys not playing or not being promoted, either. We've seen too many guys get the opportunities only when injuries made room for them to still give it a carte blanch nod. Also, I think it's just plain unrealistic to expect a 21 year old to come into camp and out play many vets, which includes just being as stable and unflappable. There are some things that only come with experience, and until a guy is given it, he's not going to have it.

There has to be a point where, with each prospect, you say they've learned what they can in the lower league and you either promote them or cut bait. But the Wings have had a habit of just hanging onto them and letting them fail upwards. Even if we're signing Daley, the truth is we probably should have just walked from one of XO/Jensen and promoted Russo/Hicketts, who I think both had shown they had taken what they can from the AHL. At some point, we're not preparing these guys to be NHLers, just better AHLers.

Don’t think Lilly has played both games of back-to-backs all season. He’s definitely been sitting due to the crowded roster. Anyway I fail to see how missing time due to X is fine but missing due to Y is not. Missed time is missed time. AHL was maybe not optimal for Vili this year but sometimes players end up in those tough development spots.
Not like Hronek was adversely affected by NHL/AHL vets. I think for too long we’ve had weak prospects that we hope will become great if they just get the chance. But we see with great prospects that they demand chances with their play.
I still think 40+ games in the AHL is valuable experience compared to playing in juniors or college. Let’s see how Vili responds next year. A great prospect would work his a** off to make sure no AHL scrubs are in the lineup over him again.

 

[ChadS]

It's not all about the number of games though, it's more about the role. You can dress for 50+ games as an extra D and get barely any ice time. Not saying that's happening in GR but good to keep in mind when reading stats.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Let' not forget

Between last year and this we will have drafted more players then over the previous twenty years we would average over three drafts, heck sometimes four.

Ideally given the improved draft position more of them will also make the NHL.

We will need to create spots for them and more if them. The philosophy will have to change

 

[Winger98]

The easy answer is because they’re not good enough. Hicketts has time (and seemed to have an important development year in a defensive role in GR), but I believe they’ve seen enough of XO.

Don’t think Lilly has played both games of back-to-backs all season. He’s definitely been sitting due to the crowded roster. Anyway I fail to see how missing time due to X is fine but missing due to Y is not. Missed time is missed time. AHL was maybe not optimal for Vili this year but sometimes players end up in those tough development spots.
Not like Hronek was adversely affected by NHL/AHL vets. I think for too long we’ve had weak prospects that we hope will become great if they just get the chance. But we see with great prospects that they demand chances with their play.
I still think 40+ games in the AHL is valuable experience compared to playing in juniors or college. Let’s see how Vili responds next year. A great prospect would work his a** off to make sure no AHL scrubs are in the lineup over him again.

One we have control over, the other we don't. There are times, like with Modano, where fate just steps in, stuff happens, and you're forced to do one thing or another. If the Wings had their rosters set up and Saarijarvi was able to get a decent amount of time -as Chad points to, not just games but actual IT - but he breaks his hand or something...well, it happens. The roster crunch, though, is something that's entirely in the Wings/GR control.

I think there would be less complaining if there were a group in Detroit that was clearly superior, from top to bottom, and that's what forced this roster situation. But the blueline in Detroit is rough. It'll be interesting to see what Holland does this summer. If he doesn't go out and sign another Daley, and/or he moves a guy or two to create more space, I think that will be a good thing to see and point to a genuine philosophical shift in the org.

 

[Henkka]

Daley was signed to be sold at the future deadlines.

Holland has said multiple times that other organizations seem to value defencemen. Pretty much he tries to hunt draft picks with these signings, like Vanek and Ott were. Daley is just longer stopgap deal because or prospects are still raw.

Daley contract was stuctured to be sold. Dropping salaly towards the end. Full NTC which will disappear...
...1 week before the 2019 deadline.

It's just obvious. It was an investment for the future at same time as it was an investment for the present.

 

[Pavels Dog]

We will need to create spots for them and more if them. The philosophy will have to change

It will have to, and I think it comes naturally. You can make room for a Rasmussen in a way that you can't bet on a late round pick to be ready. With Cholowski, Hronek, Hicketts and maybe a top 10 drafted D coming into training camp, you can maybe avoid a veteran signing and still feel comfortable at least one of those kids will handle the job.

I think there would be less complaining if there were a group in Detroit that was clearly superior, from top to bottom, and that's what forced this roster situation.

Obviously if we had an awesome NHL D core the icetime of a depth prospects in GR would be a very small issue. But look at Toronto and how they've taken some inspiration from Detroit. Lots of complaining from their fans about Kapanen, Dermott, Johnsson etc. being held back. I think fans will always want the "new toys" to be ready a little faster. Any time there's 1 veteran on the roster that isn't doing great fans will want him replaced by whatever young guy is maybe, perhaps, possibly ready.

 

[ricky0034]

It will have to, and I think it comes naturally. You can make room for a Rasmussen in a way that you can't bet on a late round pick to be ready. With Cholowski, Hronek, Hicketts and maybe a top 10 drafted D coming into training camp, you can maybe avoid a veteran signing and still feel comfortable at least one of those kids will handle the job.


Obviously if we had an awesome NHL D core the icetime of a depth prospects in GR would be a very small issue. But look at Toronto and how they've taken some inspiration from Detroit. Lots of complaining from their fans about Kapanen, Dermott, Johnsson etc. being held back. I think fans will always want the "new toys" to be ready a little faster. Any time there's 1 veteran on the roster that isn't doing great fans will want him replaced by whatever young guy is maybe, perhaps, possibly ready.

I think in addition to not clogging the roster too much it's also about not being afraid to make room later on if one of those guys looks like they should be on the team

can't just stubbornly cling to someone like Jensen just for the sake of it like how Holland spent half the season a few years back saying he didn't want to lose Lashoff "for nothing" only to eventually end up waiving him with nobody even bothering to put in a claim

 

[Frk It]

Yeah, the hoarding is another habit we are going to need to kick here. Used to be good that we had so much depth, could withstand injuries and not miss a beat.

But we are in a different place. Haven't developed a good defenseman in forever, and have overloaded the GR roster forever. Almost like those two things might go together...

Can't really argue that more games = better for development, IMO. So clear some spots and prioritize the development of these young puck movers that have good upside.

 

[Winger98]

It will have to, and I think it comes naturally. You can make room for a Rasmussen in a way that you can't bet on a late round pick to be ready. With Cholowski, Hronek, Hicketts and maybe a top 10 drafted D coming into training camp, you can maybe avoid a veteran signing and still feel comfortable at least one of those kids will handle the job.


Obviously if we had an awesome NHL D core the icetime of a depth prospects in GR would be a very small issue. But look at Toronto and how they've taken some inspiration from Detroit. Lots of complaining from their fans about Kapanen, Dermott, Johnsson etc. being held back. I think fans will always want the "new toys" to be ready a little faster. Any time there's 1 veteran on the roster that isn't doing great fans will want him replaced by whatever young guy is maybe, perhaps, possibly ready.

Jensen was 26 when he got a roster spot last year. XO was 23. Russo is 25 right now. Hicketts will be 22 in May. Sulak is 24 right now. These aren't new toys. Two of the three Toronto prospects you mentioned are younger than every guy on that list, Johnsson is older than just one of them. It doesn't hurt the wings at all to move on from any of XO, Jensen, or Daley. It wouldn't have hurt GR if Detroit had just dealt Russo.

Making room to prioritize players who may actually have a future with the Wings shouldn't be this big, difficult thing the Wings turn it into.

Daley was signed to be sold at the future deadlines.

Holland has said multiple times that other organizations seem to value defencemen. Pretty much he tries to hunt draft picks with these signings, like Vanek and Ott were. Daley is just longer stopgap deal because or prospects are still raw.

Daley contract was stuctured to be sold. Dropping salaly towards the end. Full NTC which will disappear...
...1 week before the 2019 deadline.

It's just obvious. It was an investment for the future at same time as it was an investment for the present.

What did he get for Green at the deadline, again? And dropping actual salary in the last year isn't something to make him more appealing in a deal, by the time he's dealt 75% of his contract will be paid regardless. What it does is make him harder to buyout because it balloons the cap hit. Daley was signed because Holland thought they could compete for a wild card spot, and he'll end up being dealt because the Wings won't be close to it.

 

[PullHard]

Furthering the Toronto comparison about Kapanen, Dermott, Johnsson, etc.

They traded away Fehr to the Sharks. He is the type of guy who might actually be a boon to a team like Toronto on a long playoff run, especially their AHL team. I know they replaced him with Plekanec (upgraded) but they still shuffled along the type of guy Babcock loves, Lou probably appreciates, etc. so probably a hard decision for the organization, but they got a pick and moved a player who had lost his usefulness in the bigger picture.

 

[Redder Winger]

The easy answer is because they’re not good enough. Hicketts has time (and seemed to have an important development year in a defensive role in GR), but I believe they’ve seen enough of XO.

If by easy, you mean convenient and complacent, I agree with you.
It's the wrong move for a rebuilding team with an old, crappy and, relative to talent, expensive defense.