Post-Game Talk: 5 games left

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Unfortunately now Mantha is out for the season because of dropping the gloves. The upside is it should help the Wings draft position. But it would've been nice for the kid to get more experience, though that relies on Blashill actually playing him more in what are essentially meaningless games.

So maybe it's a moot point.

 

[Reddwit]

No problem with Mantha fighting if he felt he had to answer for destroying McKegg. Thats just a kid showing everyone he's willing to answer for his actions. Good on him.

As for whether Mantha should keep fighting, I'm not sure we're going to be able to keep him from that. The kid has a temper that flares up once in a while and he just goes for it. As he matures I'm sure he'll learn to reign it in or really pick his spots.

 

[newfy]

how about they just don't fight period because its stupid instead of wasting a roster spot on an "enforcer" who sucks at actually playing hockey?

mantha was fighting earlier in the year even with Ott on the roster.

Where did I say get an enforcer? Theres basically 0 of those left in the NHL. But a person that can fight and play a fourth line or third line shift and can fight would help out quite a bit.

Say how about they dont fight period because its stupid... but guess what its been in the NHL for 100 years and isnt going anywhere so might as well address it instead of keeping your fingers crossed that noone is going to force a first line rookie into a fight with an AHL player.

Also, the wings are wasting roster spots with plenty of players this year and getting a top 5ish pick. Is it really gonna hurt that much to have a scrapper playing over Drew Miller, Glendening or Sheahan? Or how about Mcilrath getting a look as the 7th dman even? Are they gonna finish 3rd last instead of 5th with a couple tougher hockey players in their line up? Oh no

 

[Ezekial]

Wow I'm ********, I'm sorry for posting this misinformation. I guess I looked at the wrong line on that stats.

 

[obey86]

Where did I say get an enforcer? Theres basically 0 of those left in the NHL. But a person that can fight and play a fourth line or third line shift and can fight would help out quite a bit.

Say how about they dont fight period because its stupid... but guess what its been in the NHL for 100 years and isnt going anywhere so might as well address it instead of keeping your fingers crossed that noone is going to force a first line rookie into a fight with an AHL player.

Also, the wings are wasting roster spots with plenty of players this year and getting a top 5ish pick. Is it really gonna hurt that much to have a scrapper playing over Drew Miller, Glendening or Sheahan? Or how about Mcilrath getting a look as the 7th dman even? Are they gonna finish 3rd last instead of 5th with a couple tougher hockey players in their line up? Oh no

if you want to waste a roster spot on a crappy player who can't play hockey, just for the sake of "being tough", be my guest. I don't want drew miller on the team either, but replacing him with another drew miller caliber player who just fights more does nothing to help this team.

how exactly does adding a person who can fight "help out quite a bit"? you win games by scoring and preventing goals, not by winning fights. it's a stupid sideshow.

And btw, no one forced mantha to fight the other night. and he was still fighting with Ott, the enforcer, on the roster. so your theory that if you add a fighter to the roster then Mantha won't fight anymore has already been debunked.

 

[newfy]

if you want to waste a roster spot on a crappy player who can't play hockey, just for the sake of "being tough", be my guest. I don't want drew miller on the team either, but replacing him with another drew miller caliber player who just fights more does nothing to help this team.

how exactly does adding a person who can fight "help out quite a bit"? you win games by scoring and preventing goals, not by winning fights. it's a stupid sideshow.

And btw, no one forced mantha to fight the other night. and he was still fighting with Ott, the enforcer, on the roster. so your theory that if you add a fighter to the roster then Mantha won't fight anymore has already been debunked.

Read what I'm about to say. I never said anywhere that I want to waste a roster spot on someone who cant play hockey for the sake of being tough. But for about 5 years the wings have trotted out a ****** fourth line that has provided nothing to the team. I would rather a crappy player who can fight over Drew Miller because Drew Miller is just a crappy player. However I would like the wings to get tougher throughout their line up so a guy who can play a third line shift and play tough. A second liner.

The wings are the least skilled they've been in 20 years. They also might be the least tough theyve been in 20 years too. They might as well toughen up to stop guys like Mantha from fighting so much until they draft some more talent. And even if they cant beat teams with skill, they could wear some teams down through physical play. You might not like fighting in hockey but it exists so no point in crying about wanting it

 

[lomekian]

Thing is, you look at the wings recent drafting and they have clearly tried to address size issues and some toughness issues - just the big guys haven't panned out or haven't been tough...Maybe Givani Smith might get a sniff in a year or two for that reason, because if nothing else, he is a strong boy.

 

[obey86]

Read what I'm about to say. I never said anywhere that I want to waste a roster spot on someone who cant play hockey for the sake of being tough. But for about 5 years the wings have trotted out a ****** fourth line that has provided nothing to the team. I would rather a crappy player who can fight over Drew Miller because Drew Miller is just a crappy player. However I would like the wings to get tougher throughout their line up so a guy who can play a third line shift and play tough. A second liner.

The wings are the least skilled they've been in 20 years. They also might be the least tough theyve been in 20 years too. They might as well toughen up to stop guys like Mantha from fighting so much until they draft some more talent. And even if they cant beat teams with skill, they could wear some teams down through physical play. You might not like fighting in hockey but it exists so no point in crying about wanting it

Go watch boxing if you want to watch crappy hockey players fight.

When i'm watching hockey, I prefer to actually watch hockey being played. Not crappy players gooning it up for the sake of gooning it up.

Miller sucks. We get it. I agree. That doesn't change the fact that adding another Drew Miller with fighting ability also does nothing for the team. How about we try to add a skilled player who can score goals? Not a boxer trying to play hockey. The fighting stuff is so ****ing irrelevant to the NHL. It's not going to do anything for the team.

 

[jkutswings]

I agree that skill is vastly more crucial to the success of a team than toughness. But no matter how skilled a team is, there will always be an element of toughness required, especially in the playoffs. So if you can't find a player or two that can at least keep other teams honest, then get ready for any of your skilled players to get roughed up on a regular basis, with no accountability, save a penalty call...which often is a good "trade off" for the team wearing down your players (especially with how awful Detroit's power play has been).

 

[Retire91]

Babcock helping the wings and fans out even after leaving. Thanks Babs

 

[obey86]

I agree that skill is vastly more crucial to the success of a team than toughness. But no matter how skilled a team is, there will always be an element of toughness required, especially in the playoffs. So if you can't find a player or two that can at least keep other teams honest, then get ready for any of your skilled players to get roughed up on a regular basis, with no accountability, save a penalty call...which often is a good "trade off" for the team wearing down your players (especially with how awful Detroit's power play has been).

"Toughness" is much more about winning battles for the puck in the corner or driving to the net than it is about winning a fake boxing match that doesn't count for anything.

Serious question, when has an enforcer ever stopped the other team from playing physical? Did opposing teams cower in the corner when the Wings had Joey Kocur on the team? We had Ott on the team...did he prevent the opponents from being physical with Larkin? Do you honestly think in the heat of fighting for a puck, trying to win a battle or whatever that players are thinking to themselves "Crap, I better go easy on this guy and not be too physical. They have tough guy A on their team. I'm scared of him." Give me a ****ing break.

If you've ever played sports you would realize you can't just turn on and off your aggressiveness. If you're a rough, physical player...you're going to be a rough physical player no matter who is playing 7 minutes a game on the 4th line for the other team.

 

[chances14]

Serious question, when has an enforcer ever stopped the other team from playing physical?
.

that is a myth perpetuated by the dinosaur known as don cherry.

 

[Flowah]

"Toughness" is much more about winning battles for the puck in the corner or driving to the net than it is about winning a fake boxing match that doesn't count for anything.

Serious question, when has an enforcer ever stopped the other team from playing physical? Did opposing teams cower in the corner when the Wings had Joey Kocur on the team? We had Ott on the team...did he prevent the opponents from being physical with Larkin? Do you honestly think in the heat of fighting for a puck, trying to win a battle or whatever that players are thinking to themselves "Crap, I better go easy on this guy and not be too physical. They have tough guy A on their team. I'm scared of him." Give me a ****ing break.

If you've ever played sports you would realize you can't just turn on and off your aggressiveness. If you're a rough, physical player...you're going to be a rough physical player no matter who is playing 7 minutes a game on the 4th line for the other team.

I agree with that. I'm very skeptical as to the value of enforcers. I think there's a reason the league is moving away from them. Their value is too small to matter if they're not actually also good hockey players.

 

[Winger98]

Colorado seemed to be a noticeably less physically aggressive team in the playoffs in 97, and really for awhile after the brawl. Maybe our guys were just more willing to play their own game after that, but Colorado always seemed a bit cowed by our guys after that game.

And I think it's hard to divorce the idea of a guy being tough from his willingness to fight. Right or wrong, the two seem to go hand in hand to a degree. This isn't to say a guy can't be tough if he doesn't fight, but that it's a lot harder to find a guy who will willingly drop the gloves and go who doesn't also at least attempt to bring a physical dimension to his game.

I think obey is too hung up on it being an enforcer because it's better for the argument. My take is that people want guys who are not only good at hockey, but also play a more physical game with the willingness and ability to back it up when necessary.

 

[obey86]

Colorado seemed to be a noticeably less physically aggressive team in the playoffs in 97, and really for awhile after the brawl. Maybe our guys were just more willing to play their own game after that, but Colorado always seemed a bit cowed by our guys after that game.

And I think it's hard to divorce the idea of a guy being tough from his willingness to fight. Right or wrong, the two seem to go hand in hand to a degree. This isn't to say a guy can't be tough if he doesn't fight, but that it's a lot harder to find a guy who will willingly drop the gloves and go who doesn't also at least attempt to bring a physical dimension to his game.

I think obey is too hung up on it being an enforcer because it's better for the argument. My take is that people want guys who are not only good at hockey, but also play a more physical game with the willingness and ability to back it up when necessary.

Not really, the original comment I replied to literally said we needed "tough guys on the roster" who aren't scared to "stick up for anyone"....and then talked about Mantha getting suckered into a fight because we don't have said "tough guy."

That's describing an enforcer to the T.

 

[Winger98]

Not really, the original comment I replied to literally said we needed "tough guys on the roster" who aren't scared to "stick up for anyone"....and then talked about Mantha getting suckered into a fight because we don't have said "tough guy."

That's describing an enforcer to the T.

It also describes McCarty in his prime. Or LaPointe. Or Shanny.

 

[obey86]

It also describes McCarty in his prime. Or LaPointe. Or Shanny.

Not really, no.

If the whole reason for getting someone who can fight is so a skilled player like Mantha doesn't have to fight....it certainly wouldn't make sense to have someone like Shanahan fighting.

Abdelkader in today's NHL (limited fighting) fights as often as LaPointe did (when there were fights every game).

McCarty for the majority of his career was a player with limited ice time, limited points, and who fought a lot. That's an enforcer.


Anyways, I'm done with this silly convo. The Red Wings don't need better or more willing fighters for the sideshow. They need better skilled players who can score goals and control the puck.

 

[Winger98]

Not really, no.

If the whole reason for getting someone who can fight is so a skilled player like Mantha doesn't have to fight....it certainly wouldn't make sense to have someone like Shanahan fighting.

Abdelkader in today's NHL (limited fighting) fights as often as LaPointe did (when there were fights every game).

McCarty for the majority of his career was a player with limited ice time, limited points, and who fought a lot. That's an enforcer.


Anyways, I'm done with this silly convo. The Red Wings don't need better or more willing fighters for the sideshow. They need better skilled players who can score goals and control the puck.

McCarty was not an enforcer, unless you mean Sandy McCarthy and you have the spelling wrong.

And more Abdelkaders wouldn't be a bad thing, just not at the ridiculous price tag Holland put on him (and pretty comparable to what he allowed LaPointe to walk for when Ilitch goaded Boston into being stupid).

 

[SpookyTsuki]

McCarty wasn't really an enforcer either. He could play like a scorer when he wanted 2. See: Stanley cup goal against philly

He just liked fighting more. And he wasn't really an enforcer when he fought

 

[newfy]

Not really, the original comment I replied to literally said we needed "tough guys on the roster" who aren't scared to "stick up for anyone"....and then talked about Mantha getting suckered into a fight because we don't have said "tough guy."

That's describing an enforcer to the T.

Youre full of it. You took it as me wanting an enforcer on the roster even though I just said some tough guys. You know being tough and being an enforcer isnt the same thing right?

And even after the fact, in 2 posts I clarified I didnt want an enforcer and you still wont drop that because it fits your narrative better. We get it, you like soft hockey. I for one think the wings would be a better team if they were more physically imposing because the skill just isnt there. They arent winning games by out scoring their opponents anymore so try to wear them down. And one of the few who can out score his opponents just broke his finger fighting an AHL player.

 

[jkutswings]

"Toughness" is much more about winning battles for the puck in the corner or driving to the net than it is about winning a fake boxing match that doesn't count for anything.

Serious question, when has an enforcer ever stopped the other team from playing physical? Did opposing teams cower in the corner when the Wings had Joey Kocur on the team? We had Ott on the team...did he prevent the opponents from being physical with Larkin? Do you honestly think in the heat of fighting for a puck, trying to win a battle or whatever that players are thinking to themselves "Crap, I better go easy on this guy and not be too physical. They have tough guy A on their team. I'm scared of him." Give me a ****ing break.

If you've ever played sports you would realize you can't just turn on and off your aggressiveness. If you're a rough, physical player...you're going to be a rough physical player no matter who is playing 7 minutes a game on the 4th line for the other team.

I'm not saying players can toggle their aggressiveness, and I'm not saying an enforcer can stop opponents from playing physical. I'm saying that there are plenty of cowards in the NHL that don't have a problem slashing opposing players with their sticks, because they don't have the guts to play rough themselves, let alone engage in an actual fight.

If <Team X> has one or more guys that are willing to drop the gloves to defend a team mate - not as a primary function, but to know that it's on the table - I'm saying that those weasels tend to be less eager to use their lumber on the wrists and ankles of the players of <Team X>.

 

[chances14]

If <Team X> has one or more guys that are willing to drop the gloves to defend a team mate - not as a primary function, but to know that it's on the table - I'm saying that those weasels tend to be less eager to use their lumber on the wrists and ankles of the players of <Team X>.

30-40 years ago, that may have been the case. but nowadays having a guy on the roster that is willing to drop the gloves really doesn't do much to curtail the stickwork anymore imo

 

[ricky0034]

30-40 years ago, that may have been the case. but nowadays having a guy on the roster that is willing to drop the gloves really doesn't do much to curtail the stickwork anymore imo

yeah look at Matt Cooke for example,did the likes of Chara and Neil being on the other team stop him from injuring Savard and Karlsson? nope

and why would it really? nowadays you probably aren't gonna be getting into a fight if you don't want to anyways no matter who is on the other team

 

[HIFE]

I'm not saying players can toggle their aggressiveness, and I'm not saying an enforcer can stop opponents from playing physical. I'm saying that there are plenty of cowards in the NHL that don't have a problem slashing opposing players with their sticks, because they don't have the guts to play rough themselves, let alone engage in an actual fight.

If <Team X> has one or more guys that are willing to drop the gloves to defend a team mate - not as a primary function, but to know that it's on the table - I'm saying that those weasels tend to be less eager to use their lumber on the wrists and ankles of the players of <Team X>.

I couldn't agree more. Some things never change and having guys willing to throw down is almost a necessity. Their presence in the game I feel lends a certain tone both teams are aware of. This season Anaheim leads with 44 fights while Carolina has only 6; the Wings are in the middle with 25. A couple of Ott's fights were corny but overall I think our response in most cases was perfectly called for. One thing you can't say is the Wings are pushovers or a team to take liberties against and I hope we keep it that way.

 

[Winger98]

yeah look at Matt Cooke for example,did the likes of Chara and Neil being on the other team stop him from injuring Savard and Karlsson? nope

and why would it really? nowadays you probably aren't gonna be getting into a fight if you don't want to anyways no matter who is on the other team

30 years ago there was Ulf Samuelsson, among others, too. Guys like Ulf and Cooke are a special breed who can get his nose broken all of the time and will still go out and do whatever it did that ended up with his nose broken. It should be noted, though, that when the NHL started coming down hard on Cooke with suspensions his game cleaned up a bit, and took a bit of a dive.

I don't think having a guy who will drop the gloves with regularity is a be-all, end-all deterrence. I don't think it hurts, though, either. I think it also helps give their own teams a bit of...backbone, I guess? I brought it up before, but guys who fight normally also aren't afraid of playing a more physical brand of hockey. And I think that is the best deterrence to getting ran. Hit them first and initiate the contact.

I also want to continue to point out that I don't think anyone is calling for a five minute a night enforcer who does nothing but drop the gloves. We can find a fourth line forward who can handle ~10 minutes of ES hockey and not be an embarrassment, though. We can probably find guys who can play in the middle6 without paying them upwards for four million a year and for nearly a decade.

Also, a bit more size and physical play up and down the lineup would go a long way towards making Tatar and Nyquist less of a bad thing to have. If Sheahan and Jurco actually played to their size, this team would have been so much better, imo.