Post-Game Talk: 3 in a row! 5-4 Jets

[Aavco Cup]

"Losing culture" doesn't exist.

The Oilers suck because they have a meddling owner, all precious management hires were based on nepotism, they were unlucky with years they drafted first (except McDavid), they have no defense, they have bad goaltending.

It's not because of some g oofy made up narrative about their players mental deficiency.

Ask Columbus how rejecting a "losing culture" at the end of last season work put for them this year.

According to Torts the team culture was to begin the season out of shape conditioning wise

 

[garret9]

I think winning/losing culture is really just a simple as losing/winning feel differently and can impact your play.... BUT it is highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, (you get the idea) overrated and overvalued by some management types and most media types.

 

[raideralex99]

I really wouldn't put too much stock in garbage time wins. No need to trade off our best pieces just because.



Scheifele was seen as a reach, and you could argue that Couturier, Hamilton, and now Forsberg were the better pieces to take. Trouba was because other pieces were rated higher and haven't panned out as nicely (Reinhart, Murray), Connor was because of one GM "****ing up", and Ehlers was because of 2 GMs doing the same. I don't like putting faith in other GMs ****ing up. I would rather Chevy control who he gets to pick, and have the player be there with no worries about the player being taken beforehand.

Okay so there will be a couple of GMs who **** up so that means the Jets will get a top pick.
Looks like Chevy's crew knows what they are doing ... I'm not worried where they draft.

 

[Jimby]

I think of a "losing culture" as players becoming more comfortable with losses because it is something they are used to. Like how million dollar lottery winners blow through their money to revert back to their previous economic conditions because that is their subconscious comfort zone.

 

[SensibleGuy]

I think winning/losing culture is really just a simple as losing/winning feel differently and can impact your play.... BUT it is highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, (you get the idea) overrated and overvalued by some management types and most media types.

ah-yup. It's an incredibly silly narrative. Winning these last few games here is pretty much COMPLETELY meaningless in terms of the team's future. Most of what is looking great now will probably look meh in training camp and pre-season next year. There's no winning culture carry-over. The only positive to winning games now is the brief feeling of "fun" and enjoyment the fans get from watching their team win a game. I would gladly give that up for a few more percentage points in our favor as far as draft position goes - so that we don't have to rely on one or 2 GMs in front of us making bad moves.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

It's funny cause were almost guaranteed the highest pick we've had since coming back, yet this is the year everyone is *****ing about being in no mans land.

 

[Jimby]

If hockey players believe "losing cultures" exist then it is a real thing. Belief=reality. Drew Stafford knows a bit about being on a losing team and he recently stressed the importance of winning and not getting into the habit of losing and especially not letting the young guys get used to a losing environment. If the players think it is important and that these games aren't meaningless for that reason then that is good enough for me. Happy to see the wins.

 

[Whileee]

"Losing culture" doesn't exist.

The Oilers suck because they have a meddling owner, all precious management hires were based on nepotism, they were unlucky with years they drafted first (except McDavid), they have no defense, they have bad goaltending.

It's not because of some g oofy made up narrative about their players mental deficiency.

Ask Columbus how rejecting a "losing culture" at the end of last season worked out for them this year.

Just as dumb as the "winning culture" garbage spewed around here ad nauseum until it magically disappeared the very second the Jets were on their way to a lottery pick.

I think winning/losing culture is really just a simple as losing/winning feel differently and can impact your play.... BUT it is highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, (you get the idea) overrated and overvalued by some management types and most media types.

Fair enough, but prolonged failure can create a toxic environment in any organization. Players lose confidence in the organization and in each other, bad habits emerge, etc. It can often be turned around quickly, though. The biggest challenge for an organization like the Oilers is probably to resist over-reacting to the ennui that a lot of their players are exhibiting right now.

 

[garret9]

If hockey players believe "losing cultures" exist then it is a real thing. Belief=reality. Drew Stafford knows a bit about being on a losing team and he recently stressed the importance of winning and not getting into the habit of losing and especially not letting the young guys get used to a losing environment. If the players think it is important and that these games aren't meaningless for that reason then that is good enough for me. Happy to see the wins.

Uh... no. Not at all.

People can believe things impact/effect them and be wrong all the time. It's actually VERY common.

 

[Jimby]

Conditioning is a real thing.

Uh... no. Not at all.

People can believe things impact/effect them and be wrong all the time. It's actually VERY common.

 

[Whileee]

It's funny cause were almost guaranteed the highest pick we've had since coming back, yet this is the year everyone is *****ing about being in no mans land.

Right. Worst case scenario is getting a top-end prospect like Chychrun, Juolevi, Tkachuk or Dubois. Add in two more players in the 25-36 range and the Jets will continue to load up an impressive prospect pipeline.

 

[garret9]

Conditioning is a real thing.

Conditioning is a real thing, but real and real significant effect are two different arguments.

There are many other things that are real but do not have a real effect.

For example: Confidence with playing the hot-hand for goaltending. Historically, coaches do no better choosing the goalie who played well recently than the one playing poorly, given equal talent level. (Which I'm speaking about tomorrow at the SFU Vancouver Hockey Analytics Conference)

I'm sure confidence is real with those goalies, but there are other variables and factors that wash out the meaningfulness of it.

 

[JetsUK]

Getting a little too negative round here for me but enjoyed the game last night, great to see so much speed, skill, aggression and tenacity -- and all on one team. Here's hoping we pull another rabbit from the hat on draft day and see you all next October!

best,

J

 

[surixon]

Uh... no. Not at all.

People can believe things impact/effect them and be wrong all the time. It's actually VERY common.

But shouldn't the results of a hard working team be reflected to some degree in the underlying numbers and thus have an impact. I don't think anyone is saying that being able to keep your battle level up even when you have nothing to play for is more significant than fixing the few key areas that lead to the team's fortunes this year. But I will take a team that will put its best effort forward every time over teams that throw in the towel and admit defeat like Vancouver and Edmonton.

 

[Whileee]

Uh... no. Not at all.

People can believe things impact/effect them and be wrong all the time. It's actually VERY common.

Conditioning is a real thing, but real and real significant effect are two different arguments.

There are many other things that are real but do not have a real effect.

For example: Confidence with playing the hot-hand for goaltending. Historically, coaches do no better choosing the goalie who played well recently than the one playing poorly, given equal talent level. (Which I'm speaking about tomorrow at the SFU Vancouver Hockey Analytics Conference)

I'm sure confidence is real with those goalies, but there are other variables and factors that wash out the meaningfulness of it.

Conditioning has a real effect on performance for individuals and as a team. It's qualitatively different than the notion of a goaltending "hot-hand".

 

[garret9]

But shouldn't the results of a hard working team be reflected to some degree in the underlying numbers and thus have an impact. I don't think anyone is saying that being able to keep your battle level up even when you have nothing to play for is more significant than fixing the few key areas that lead to the team's fortunes this year. But I will take a team that will put its best effort forward every time over teams that throw in the towel and admit defeat like Vancouver and Edmonton.

Conditioning has a real effect on performance for individuals and as a team. It's qualitatively different than the notion of a goaltending "hot-hand".

My points were merely that:

1) Something doesn't simply exist because they say they feel it does
2) Something existing doesn't define the extent of the impact

Everything else was just an example of that.

 

[SensibleGuy]

Conditioning has a real effect on performance for individuals and as a team. It's qualitatively different than the notion of a goaltending "hot-hand".

Are you talking about physical conditioning? If so, that's not the sort of conditioning being referred to here...

Players believe all kinds of stuff...so do coaches and GMs and media and fans. But if those beliefs don't lead to any sort of measurable outcomes they are really just cliches and talking points. Players have to say stuff - they have mics shoved into their faces.

Good teams comprised of good players win more games than other teams comprised of lesser players. "winning culture" is the result of good players winning games. If the Jets go on to have a great season next year, it will be because they have put together a group of players capable of doing so. It won't be because they won a few games in garbage time at the end of the previous season...

 

[AWSAA]

Right. Worst case scenario is getting a top-end prospect like Chychrun, Juolevi, Tkachuk or Dubois. Add in two more players in the 25-36 range and the Jets will continue to load up an impressive prospect pipeline.

More quantity over quality.

Juolevi may be YEARS away (and will likely be the only one left should they drop to #7). Where will Wheeler, Little, and Buff be at in their careers by the time he's established as a strong top 4D? The potential window for overlap here is going to be very small.

If the lottery doesn't go the Jets way it becomes even more pressing to convert some of their prospect depth into a quality NHL-Ready core piece.

 

[CaptainChef]

More quantity over quality.

Juolevi may be YEARS away (and will likely be the only one left should they drop to #7). Where will Wheeler, Little, and Buff be at in their careers if/whenever Olli establishes himself as a strong top 4D? The potential window for overlap here is going to be very small.

If the lottery doesn't go the Jets way it becomes even more pressing to convert some of their prospect depth into a quality NHL-Ready core piece.

Well that's one way to look at this, but lets just wait and see who they pick. How can you argue when our scouts have done a fabulous job turning #9 picks into prospects that made the NHL in a year (Trouba, Ehlers) and it looks like #17 (Connor) may make the NHL within a year as well.

 

[DarthMonty]

I'm confused by coming into a PGT after a win and reading the overwhelming negativity!

I enjoyed last night's game, and frankly, being an optimist, suspect that we may still gain the first overall pick. And if we don't? C'est La vie.

I do love watching the process of some of the young'ins develop - players like Ehlers, Copp, Petan, Armia, Dano indicate high levels of skill and talent and seem to be finding their respective ways into the team's systems. Whether they pan out as anything other than glorified AHL call-ups is yet to be determined, but you can see why the Jets management felt they were all worth a draft pick or trade fodder. None of those players are mailing it in; they all seem to have stepped up their game, actually.

Go ahead and bemoan the frittering away of a lower seed for the draft lottery, but to paraphrase Garth Brooks, we may be thankful for an unanswered prayer in the upcoming seasons (Nail Yakipov says hi).

Isn't the whole process fascinating? Aren't we fortunate to have these issues to discuss? Sorry, but I do not want to be the typical Winnipegger barking and moaning about how everything is the opposite of awesome and complaining how we have the worst (insert favourite whipping boy here) in the world. The opposite is true - there's probably been no better time in history to be living in Winnipeg. The Jets and Bombers look to be improving, there's a huge building boom in progress, downtown is changing so much that it's unrecognizable from even a mere 12 years ago, condos and apartments are being proposed and built in the core, infrastructure is getting some attention, I got a new car, my son and daughter-in-law moved into downtown and love it, my neighbourhood is turning over from the original owners to young families - seriously life looks pretty good from my vantage point. So if the Jets fail to land the first overall pick, well, is it worth all the angst and gnashing and groaning going on? Nope.

I say the Jets will be legitimate contenders by the 2017-2018 season. Book it. And if I'm wrong? Well, it will have been two more years of the best hockey in the world, and we'll all have front row seats for it. I'm lovin' it.

 

[heretik27]

More quantity over quality.

Juolevi may be YEARS away (and will likely be the only one left should they drop to #7). Where will Wheeler, Little, and Buff be at in their careers by the time he establishes himself as a strong top 4D? The potential window for overlap here is going to be very small.

If the lottery doesn't go the Jets way it becomes even more pressing to convert some of their prospect depth into a quality NHL-Ready core piece.

If our prospect is a LHD that progresses at a rate similar to Morrissey then we've got another 2 years to develop him into an NHL player. We're still going to be waiting on the development of our depth and current prospects which is years away anyways so in this situational context it's really not that big of a deal if our draft prospect is 2-3 years away. Our current leaders are all approaching their peaks right now (Buff, Wheeler, Little, Scheifele) which will give us a strong base for our younger players to work around and hopefully gain playoff experience as soon as next season. Ideally we'd have been ready to begin contending next season to fully make use of the primes of our current elite players, but the youth movement, poor goaltending, poor special teams all put a damper on that.

Our teams biggest issues right now don't include the draft, it's the personnel we have both on the ice and in charge of the players. Stu/Pavs/Thor have expired as players and need to go. Questions regarding our goalie coach have come up over the last year or two and his development of Hutchinson/Pavs. Our special teams could improve with better talent, but the coaching definitely seems to be a major issue.

 

[AWSAA]

Stu/Pavs/Thor have expired as players and need to go.

Been saying that since 2012.

 

[heretik27]

Been saying that since 2012.

What have we had within our organization to replace them in the past though? Chevy doesn't really do much trading, it just doesn't seem to be a strength of his.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

I'm confused by coming into a PGT after a win and reading the overwhelming negativity!

I enjoyed last night's game, and frankly, being an optimist, suspect that we may still gain the first overall pick. And if we don't? C'est La vie.

I do love watching the process of some of the young'ins develop - players like Ehlers, Copp, Petan, Armia, Dano indicate high levels of skill and talent and seem to be finding their respective ways into the team's systems. Whether they pan out as anything other than glorified AHL call-ups is yet to be determined, but you can see why the Jets management felt they were all worth a draft pick or trade fodder. None of those players are mailing it in; they all seem to have stepped up their game, actually.

Go ahead and bemoan the frittering away of a lower seed for the draft lottery, but to paraphrase Garth Brooks, we may be thankful for an unanswered prayer in the upcoming seasons (Nail Yakipov says hi).

Isn't the whole process fascinating? Aren't we fortunate to have these issues to discuss? Sorry, but I do not want to be the typical Winnipegger barking and moaning about how everything is the opposite of awesome and complaining how we have the worst (insert favourite whipping boy here) in the world. The opposite is true - there's probably been no better time in history to be living in Winnipeg. The Jets and Bombers look to be improving, there's a huge building boom in progress, downtown is changing so much that it's unrecognizable from even a mere 12 years ago, condos and apartments are being proposed and built in the core, infrastructure is getting some attention, I got a new car, my son and daughter-in-law moved into downtown and love it, my neighbourhood is turning over from the original owners to young families - seriously life looks pretty good from my vantage point. So if the Jets fail to land the first overall pick, well, is it worth all the angst and gnashing and groaning going on? Nope.

I say the Jets will be legitimate contenders by the 2017-2018 season. Book it. And if I'm wrong? Well, it will have been two more years of the best hockey in the world, and we'll all have front row seats for it. I'm lovin' it.

Love the positivity! This season has sucked but it still feels great to be a Jets fan!

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

I think it is freakin awesome that we won. No, I don't like the fact that the points will hurt us at the draft table, but I hope for a Jets win every game. There has been very little to cheer about this year. We can single out players and events like Scheif, Ehlers, signing Buff, but overall this year has sucked. IDK if another team dropped more points in the standings this year than us compared to their last year's performance. So hard to be happy with the season, but happy to win and have the boys experience some positivity as the season winds down.

GJG!