25 teams want equal chance for Crosby

[ryz]

Nope, try again.

Best road draws, in terms of filling the building:

Philly, Colorado, Edmonton (someone explain this one to me), Detroit, St. Louis, Anaheim (this one too) then finally Toronto at number 7.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?sort=away_capacity_avg&year=2004

In terms of numbers drawn, the order is Detroit, Colorado, Montreal, NYRangers, Calgary then Toronto at six.

How could this be?? I thought that if the Leafs left the NHL the NHL would have to fold immediately because they were the be-all and end-all franchise of the NHL. Guess not.

For heavens sake, they aren't even the highest drawing Canadian team! And there are only 6 of them.

(Waits for Mayor of Mcappolis and The Messenger to spin this their way)

 

[NYIsles1*]

All he's proven is that the NHL has passed the New York Islanders by. He almost sounded like a Canadiens' fan reliving the past.

Works for me reliving the Isles past and comparing it to the Canadians, two proud traditional franchise that won eight cups in a row between them and proved when they won the sport did well and will again someday. When the discussion is hockey's greatest dynsties, the Isles and Habs are the discussion with Edmonton.

What is it the Leafs have done again?

BTW, what the Leafs have done is kept the NHL alive and well in Canada and its core.

Just ask the fans in Quebec or Winnipeg or the Oilers/Flames. Tsn cannot pay Espn enough money to show a Leafs game in the US during a six month regular season no matter who they signed.

 

[Morbo]

The Leafs were one of the primary teams that drove up contracts which caused other franchises to spend more to keep up.

This is simply untrue.

I'm sure even some Leaf fans remember how intimidated the Leafs looked and played at Nassau Coliseum in the 2002 playoffs as they went 0-3 in front of crowds that made ACC corporate crowd sound like a church by comparison.

No, actually I don't remember them being intimidated at all....and by the crowd?? I don't think so. The Leafs have been a veteran team the last few years and they don't get rattled by things like that.

I DO remember Steve Webb charging somebody every shift and not getting called for it, and then vanishing like smoke on the road. Did you think the Leafs were intimidated by the Isles because of that? I think they proved they weren't by winning the series, don't you?

 

[NYIsles1*]

This is simply untrue.

How is this untrue? What players went to Toronto for less money recently in signings or absorbed contracts in trades with other teams. The Leafs spending habits helped create the expectations of players demands like Bryan McCabe.

 

[Morbo]

How is this untrue? What players went to Toronto for less money recently in signings or absorbed contracts in trades with other teams. The Leafs spending habits helped create the expectations of players demands like Bryan McCabe.

How about giving me some actual examples of contracts they gave that inflated salaries for others?

 

[Dave is a killer]

How is this untrue? What players went to Toronto for less money recently in signings or absorbed contracts in trades with other teams. The Leafs spending habits helped create the expectations of players demands like Bryan McCabe.

you mean Martin LaPointe for 5 mil/year?

How does a player get a 5 mil dollar contract after a 57 point season?

which created Bobby Holik's 9 mil Rangers contract; Joe Sakic's offer sheet

Yashin, yea he's almost worth 9 mil/year; wtf has he won????

these are the 4 WORST contracts/offers in the history of Hockey, bar none

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

Free Agent deals:

When a free agent in 1995, Winnipeg Jets captain Keith Tkachuk received a frontloaded contract offer from the Chicago Black Hawks. The deal was worth $17.2 million over 5 years, with $6 million paid out in the first season. This move sealed the Jets fate as they moved to Arizona shortly afterwards.

In the summer of 1997, Chris Gratton went to the Philadelphia Flyers after signing a 5-year, $16.5 million free agent deal. Tampa Bay took the 4 first round draft picks as compensation and traded them back to the Flyers for Mikael Renberg and Karl Dykhuis.

Also in 1997, Joe Sakic received an offer sheet from the New York Rangers that the Colorado Avalanche Matched. The contract was 3 years worth $21 million.

In 1998, the Carolina Hurricanes gave Sergei Fedorov a six-year, $38 million offer sheet that the Detroit Red Wings matched, but it was costly for them. The contract was worth $2 million per season, had a $14 million signing bonus. It also included a $12 million bonus if Fedorov’s team made it to the Conference final. Carolina was barely a playoff team, but Detroit a cup contender. The Red Wings paid $28million for the first year of the contract.


Rookie Deals:

Alexandre Daigle: 5 years worth 12.5 million signed in 1993 with the Ottawa Senators

In 1994, Paul Kariya was signed for 3 years for $6.5 million.

Joe Thornton was paid the rookie maximum $925 000, but with bonuses Thornton was able to make $2.4 million in the 3rd and final year of the deal.

Vincent Lecavalier: 3 years at $975 k, but included a $3 million dollar bonus for meeting only 2 of the following stipulations:
· 20 goals.
· 35 assists.
· 60 points.
· Average at least 0.73 points a game in a minimum of 42 games.
· Finish with a plus-minus rating of plus-10, if Tampa Bay makes the playoffs, or be among the top three forwards on the team in plus-minus if the Lightning miss the playoffs.
· Finish fifth or better in voting for the Calder trophy as Rookie of the Year.
· Bonuses for making the All-Star team, all-rookie team, winning the Conn Smythe Trophy as playoff MVP, winning the Stanley Cup and being among the team leaders in power-play and shorthanded goals could bring the total to $16 million over three seasons, though the Lightning have hedged their bet for the first season by buying an insurance policy on the bonuses.



Players who used Unrestricted Free agency and supply and demand to inflate their value:

· John Leclair: 5 years for $45 million in 2001
· Bobby Holik; $45 million over 5 years in 2002
· Martin Lapointe: 4 years, $20 million

Players who used salary disclosure to inflate their value:

· Eric Lindros signed in 1998 2 years, $16 million based on Sakic and Kariya (2 years $14 mil) deals of 1997
· Mats Sundin signed for $9 million a year shortly after the LecLair signing
· Doug Weight followed LeClair’s lead as well in receiving a 4 year $40 million deal from St Louis.
· Alexei Yashin 10 years, $87.5 million
· Jaromir Jagr 8 years $88 million
· Keith Tkachuk 5 years $45 million following the Holik signing
· Jose Theodore $16.5 million over 3 years
· Jean Sebastian Giguere 4 years $19.5 million


Looks like only one contract awarded by the Toronto Maple Leafs. And after the Isles payt Alexei Yashin a King's ransom for a Pauper's performance, how can you say they overpaid, especially considering he doesn't disappear at crunch time.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

How about giving me some actual examples of contracts they gave that inflated salaries for others?

Paying Sundin 8m a season didn't help, Does every player deserve 8m for 32 goals a year? agents seem to think so

 

[MacDaddy TLC*]

The Leafs were one of the primary teams that drove up contracts which caused other franchises to spend more to keep up. The Wings lost 16.4m, Philadelphia, Colorado, St.Louis, Rangers, Dallas all lost money.

See the list of the worst contracts I provided, which is similar to the article written a few months back, "The twelve contracts that ruined NHL hockey" and take note of the number that were provided by the Leafs. The teams you list lost money because of their own damn stupidity. Toronto played the game by the way current market conditions dictated and NEVER spent outside their means.

That's how I proved it? The Isles market sold out a game for a team they hardly knew. Nothing minor league about that kind of hockey or fan support.

The Islanders are a New York area team with a strong city and tri-state area fanbase, always have been and always will be.


Anyone who goes to games at Msg knows it because a solid percentage of the crowds are Isles fans. The Devils sellout few games (too large an arena) but they
always sellout the Islander games in New Jersey because of the Isles fan support in the region.

Isles play close to ninety percent capacity over a full season. In 2001-02 they sold out more than half the games after three owners ran the team on life-support for six years.

Baseball's hold on the public is a big problem in the New York hockey market like no other place in the country, it's an oversaturated sports market and the Rangers have the same problems.

The ticket prices were cheaper. Minor league. Isles play to 90% capacity? Not in 2004 http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2004. Narrowly missed 90% in 2002, but I'll give you credit for that season. Not in 2001: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2001. The Nassau Mausoleum seats 16297 and 14 400 is 90%. They didn't even approach that number between 1989 and 2000. So in 2 seasons of the last 16 they reached 90% attendance, which for their building doesn't even meet the NHL average = Minor leagues!
http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Business/NHL-attendance.htm

The Isles attendance is also below average because the owner hit the fans with a 125 percent ticket increase over four years because teams like Toronto drive up prices to get free agents to play for the Leafs which drive up ticket prices for all the teams and also drove the business to a lockout. Well done.

Again blaming Toronto. Take a look at some of the info above and again realize the Leafs never did anything they couldn't afford and were more reactionary than proactive. They followed the lead of teams that are now crying poor.

Works for me reliving the Isles past and comparing it to the Canadians, two proud traditional franchise that won eight cups in a row between them and proved when they won the sport did well and will again someday. When the discussion is hockey's greatest dynsties, the Isles and Habs are the discussion with Edmonton.

I meant by how deluded the fans were, but take it however makes you feel better. The Habs fan motto is we have a hell of a past and a bright future. too bad they can't figure out the present.

Just ask the fans in Quebec or Winnipeg or the Oilers/Flames. Tsn cannot pay Espn enough money to show a Leafs game in the US during a six month regular season no matter who they signed.

Winnipeg can thank the City and the province of Manitoba for choosing to build and win the bid to host the 1999 Pan Am games over keeping the NHL team and building them a new arena.

Quebec lost to a failing arena, a failing dollar, and an outrageous tax rate in the Province of Quebec.

 

[Morbo]

Paying Sundin 8m a season didn't help, Does every player deserve 8m for 32 goals a year? agents seem to think so

That was the going rate for #1 centres when the deal was signed. The Leafs did not set any bars with that contract, they paid market rate.

Try again.

 

[CGG]

That was the going rate for #1 centres when the deal was signed. The Leafs did not set any bars with that contract, they paid market rate.

Try again.

Leafs are nowhere near the worst offender. However they did set the market for goalies with the Cujo signing, even though they had (at the time) a capable goalie by the name of Felix Potvin. Hard to believe he was good not that long ago.

Cujo was worth every penny to the Leafs, but became the new benchmark for goalies.

 

[NYIsles1*]

Mayor:

On one hand you post and claim the Leafs only making 14.4 million in profits is wrong on my part and to quit consulting John Spano (not Spanos) on financial matters, yet in your so-called homework there it is once again the Leafs operating profit from the same source as I used (Forbes) which shows the Leafs 2002-03 profit: 13.8m

Thanks for contradicting yourself, and proving my point.

See the list of the worst contracts I provided, which is similar to the article written a few months back, "The twelve contracts that ruined NHL hockey" and take note of the number that were provided by the Leafs. The teams you list lost money because of their own damn stupidity. Toronto played the game by the way current market conditions dictated and NEVER spent outside their means.

So let's see if I have this correct. You now claim the Flyers, Avs, Ranger, Blues, Stars, Wings lost money because of their own stupidity yet all you could do is blame expansion teams for hockey's problem and set up your contraction list of teams that decide to actually run their team as a business.

Your own misguided sense of entitlement seems to be your only homework. This is too easy..

The ticket prices were cheaper. Minor league. Isles play to 90% capacity? Not in 2004 http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2004. Narrowly missed 90% in 2002, but I'll give you credit for that season. Not in 2001: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2001. The Nassau Mausoleum seats 16297 and 14 400 is 90%. They didn't even approach that number between 1989 and 2000. So in 2 seasons of the last 16 they reached 90% attendance, which for their building doesn't even meet the NHL average = Minor leagues!

First off your 2003-04 Espn avg included only a 40 game season and did include a game in a blizzard where only the paid attendance was posted. That game had only 3,000 people attend on 12/7 against Chicago, which counted against the season avg.

Second the Nassau Coliseum capacity was around or slightly above 15,000 for several years, as the building changed it became 16,297 which was reduced to 16,234.

Finally you should know the difference between fans not attending out of indifference vs fans staying home to intentionally punishing unprecedented bad ownership. If the teachers union decided to ice a 15m dollar for close to a decade Maple Leaf fans would also stay home to intentionally punish ownership in Toronto also.

Isles television ratings doubled during this time which you forgot to mention.

Again blaming Toronto. Take a look at some of the info above and again realize the Leafs never did anything they couldn't afford and were more reactionary than proactive. They followed the lead of teams that are now crying poor.

Unfortunately the business on the whole could not afford it and were all paying for the Leafs reaction today. Aren't we?

Robert Reichel, Ed Belfour, Brian McCabe. Didn't Gary Roberts get a three hundred percent increase? How many star contracts from other teams were or are being paid by the Leafs: Francis, Nolan, Leetch, Nieuwendyk, Klee..How much did the lastest Doug Gilmour re-union tour cost?

Instead of looking at your homework, I decided to do something
else. I went back to look at the Leafs profits and revenue in 97-98:

Even with a new building the Leafs only make about ten million more in profit than they were making almost nine years ago.

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/$reven_e.htm

I wonder how much expansion revenue kept the Leafs out of the red in those days if they were making an operating profit of only two or six million.

I meant by how deluded the fans were, but take it however makes you feel better. The Habs fan motto is we have a hell of a past and a bright future. too bad they can't figure out the present.

What's the Leafs future without a spending advantage? What was their past when they had one besides jumping from conference to conference. I like the Isles a lot better than the Leafs coming out of this lockout.

Good luck getting people to pay those ticket prices to see a youth movement after a few bad seasons in Toronto. Maybe then we can talk about the Leafs being entitled to the number one pick...

 

[Johnnybegood13]

That was the going rate for #1 centres when the deal was signed. The Leafs did not set any bars with that contract, they paid market rate.

Try again.

how many #1 centres were making 8m back then?

I can think of.

Yashin--(10m) lol, everyone knows how Pejorative Slured that contract was.
Sakic-- (8m) better than Sundin and just led them to a cup
Modano-- (9m) just off a monster season and a cup.

Thats all i can think of making 8m or more.

Other #1 centres making less right now

Scott Gomez-- (2.9m)
Jeremy Roenick--(7m)
Mario Lemieux--(5m) was 7.5 when Sundin signed
Joe Thornton--(6m)
Saku Koivu--(4.5)
Jeff O'Neill--(3.7m)
Vincent Lecavalier--(4.4m)
Steve Yzerman--(4.5m) was 7m when Sundin signed
Doug Weight--(7m)
Markus Näslund--(5.6m)
Sergei Fedorov--(6m)


Being in denial of the overpayment to Sundin doesn't make you right...you try again

 

[Morbo]

how many #1 centres were making 8m back then?

I can think of.

Yashin--(10m) lol, everyone knows how Pejorative Slured that contract was.
Sakic-- (8m) better than Sundin and just led them to a cup
Modano-- (9m) just can off a monster season and a cup.

Thats all i can think of making 8m or more.

Other #1 centres making less right now

Scott Gomez-- (2.9m)
Jeremy Roenick--(7m)
Mario Lemieux--(5m) was 7.5 when Sundin signed
Joe Thornton--(6m)
Saku Koivu--(4.5)
Jeff O'Neill--(3.7m)
Vincent Lecavalier--(4.4m)
Steve Yzerman--(4.5m) was 7m when Sundin signed
Doug Weight--(7m)
Markus Näslund--(5.6m)
Sergei Fedorov--(6m)


Being in denial of the overpayment to Sundin doesn't make you right...you try again

Nope. Like I said, Sundin's deal was not one of the contracts that inflated things for everyone else thereafter, which was what you claimed.

Come up with some actual examples of the Leafs doing this, and there must be a lot since they are among the leaders in this department according to you, or concede that you were totally wrong.

 

[DARKSIDE]

Let's all relax now. Not official, but looks like a weighted lottery and playoffs expanded to #20 teams. And why do I get the feeling I'll be seeing Crosby on Broadway. I guess at least I'll get to see him play on a regular basis.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=120872&hubName=nhl

 

[NYIsles1*]

And why to I get the feeling I'll be seeing Crosby on Broadway. I guess at least I'll get to see him play on a regular basis.

[url="http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=120872&hubName=nhl"][url="http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=120872&hubName=nhl"]http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=120872&hubName=nhl[/url][/url]

Why is the league going to put Crosby into baseball's largest market? He would be superstar #20 in a small hockey market of people that watch and receive no coverage against Steinbrenner's Yankees or the other teams.

Look at the star players on the Rangers the last seven years. Where was the attention? This is not Patrick Ewing in 1985 and it's not basketball, where the entire country knew who Ewings was long before he was drafted. Unless your a die-hard hockey fan in New York following on the web you likely do not even know who Crosby is.

I live in New York and am a die-hard hockey fan and have never seen one televised game or read one article here about Crosby.

 

[Timmy]

Why is the league going to put Crosby into baseball's largest market? He would be superstar #20 in a small hockey market and receive no coverage against Steinbrenner's Yankees or the other teams.

We would treat the young man very well in Vancouver, and are willing to make the sacrifice of giving the league 29 painted Orcas as a gesture of our appreciation, plus pictures of Bert's wife in a bikini.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

Nope. Like I said, Sundin's deal was not one of the contracts that inflated things for everyone else thereafter, which was what you claimed.

Come up with some actual examples of the Leafs doing this, and there must be a lot since they are among the leaders in this department according to you, or concede that you were totally wrong.

I'm fairly sure his name came up a few times in contract talks,I know Craig Conroy tried to compare his contract during talks with the Flames as his stats were fairly close (Sutter laughed at him),fact is the Leafs paid him 8m without even a fight. Didn't want to hurt his frail feelings i guess.

Is Sundin a good #1 centre? sure he is,has he done anything to be rewarded with a contract worth 8m a season...not a chance IMO.

 

[kdb209]

This has probably been discussed already, but what are the legal ramifications if the league ups the entry age?

Barring that, I'm in the even-chance-for-all camp.

There should be no legal ramifications as long as the increase in draft age is negotiated as part of a CBA.

Clarett v. NFL pretty much upheld age based draft qaulifications - in the case of the NFL it was 3 yrs after high school.

Yes a player could always sue to challenge any change, but it unlikely to prevail, and it certainly wouldn't be strong enough of a case to get an injunction, so even if Crosby sued and won, he still wouldn't be drafted until the following year anyway.

 

[DARKSIDE]

Why is the league going to put Crosby into baseball's largest market? He would be superstar #20 in a small hockey market of people that watch and receive no coverage against Steinbrenner's Yankees or the other teams.

Look at the star players on the Rangers the last seven years. Where was the attention? This is not Patrick Ewing in 1985 and it's not basketball, where the entire country knew who Ewings was long before he was drafted. Unless your a die-hard hockey fan in New York following on the web you likely do not even know who Crosby is.

I live in New York and am a die-hard hockey fan and have never seen one televised game or read one article here about Crosby.

Bettman Logic?

 

[MisterUnspoken]

How do the Rangers fall into this? They are always loaded, they have a ton of money and they haven't made the playoffs in 7 years.

Thank you, doesn't appear so black and white does it. A good team does not money make.

 

[kdb209]

Originally Posted by kdb209
Excuse me, but wasn't the draft lottery instituted in 1995, a full decade after Mario. I guess the league does do things slowly.

Let's have a link to when the lottery was instituted. NBA started in 1985, I believe the NHL followed shortly there after.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl_network/teams/news_story.asp?ID=79206&hubName=nhl-capitals

The NHL instituted the draft lottery in 1995, in hopes of dissuading teams from making personnel and tactical moves aimed at enhancing their chances of finishing in last place in order to draft a highly touted player.


Results of Previous Draft Drawings

Year Selected Effect on Draft Order Player Selected

1995 Los Angeles Moved from 7th to 3rd Aki Berg
1996 Ottawa Retained 1st selection Chris Phillips
1997 Boston Retained 1st selection Joe Thornton
1998 Tampa Bay Moved from 3rd to 1st via Vincent Lecavalier
trades
1999 Chicago Moved from 8th to 4th Traded pick
2000 NY Islanders Moved from 5th to 1st Rick DiPietro
2001 Atlanta Moved from 3rd to 1st Ilya Kovalchuk
2002 Florida Moved from 3rd to 1st Traded pick
2003 Florida Moved from 4th to 1st Traded pick
2004 Washington Moved from 3rd to 1st

Happy?

 

[MisterUnspoken]

Why is the league going to put Crosby into baseball's largest market? He would be superstar #20 in a small hockey market of people that watch and receive no coverage against Steinbrenner's Yankees or the other teams.

Look at the star players on the Rangers the last seven years. Where was the attention? This is not Patrick Ewing in 1985 and it's not basketball, where the entire country knew who Ewings was long before he was drafted. Unless your a die-hard hockey fan in New York following on the web you likely do not even know who Crosby is.

I live in New York and am a die-hard hockey fan and have never seen one televised game or read one article here about Crosby.

I think he might be referring to how in 1994 when the Rangers won the Stanley Cup hockey seemed to reach its pinnacle of popularity. NY is a stage where players can shine and be seen. This has nothing to do with how popular he would be in a particular city, but his marketability and what he can do for the NHL as a whole.

 

[kdb209]

Did the Czech Republic, Slovakia and all the republics of the Soviet Union dissolving create a large enough talent pool to fill 9 teams? No. Enough for 3 maybe but not 9.

Actually yes. There were actually fewer Canadians playing in the NHL in 2004 than in 1990. So, unless you think the NHL has an affirmative action program to hire less qualified Europeans or Americans, the least talented player today is not less talented than 15 yrs ago.

Now you can argue that the overall level of talent would be higher if there was the same influx from Europe without expansion, but that's a different argument, not that expansion has watered down the talent from the good old days. And without expansion and the need to scout and recruit from Europe, a lot of that talent would not have come over, and some late blooming players may never have gotten a chance to develop (see St Loius, Martin).

There is no question whatsoever thet the raw physical talent level of the average NHL player is much higher than 15 or 20 years ago.

 

[NYIsles1*]

I think he might be referring to how in 1994 when the Rangers won the Stanley Cup hockey seemed to reach its pinnacle of popularity. NY is a stage where players can shine and be seen. This has nothing to do with how popular he would be in a particular city, but his marketability and what he can do for the NHL as a whole.

I'm sure that poster is, but it's not 1994, it's 2005.

How the public views hockey and it's competition today in New York has changed a great deal in this market. It's oversaturated with other sports teams with far more star players. There is a 200m dollar team here that is a year-round mania with the public, baseball has no off-season. There is no stage or time where hockey players can shine or be seen here anymore.

Let's also give Vancouer and New Jersey equal credit for providing hockey with a great show, without them the Rangers cup is as anti-climatic as the Wings first cup in fifty years.