NHL Entry Draft 2023 NHL Draft Thread

BankStreetParade

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No draft since 2000 have the Sens lost 3 guys less than 2 years since they were drafted.

Specifically the Boucher pick? They used a 49th overall pick on a 6’5 D with no offense, who couldn’t stay as a top 4 D in the OHL for London, who they didn’t bother to offer a contract too. What does NHL games played 2 years after the draft have to do with how a pick is progressing? It’s not like the draft was yesterday and we have nothing to go on to see how a draft pick has progressed. We have 2 full seasons to evaluate his play. Can he become a great player for us? Absolutely. Has his past 2 seasons been what we wanted to see from him? Obviously not.

Sens were the worst drafting team in the league from 2012-14. There was a ton of lamenting about wasting picks on a lot of guys taken in that frame.

We just had Andreas England V 2.0 with Roger. That pick was laughed at immediately by lots. We had him in our top 20 and he had generational compete. There is been tons of laughably bad moment by the Sens drafting, just like there has been tons of good. 2021, undoubtedly, falls deep in the bad side of things as of now.
So, hyper-fixating on individual picks with no regard for the larger context of the draft as a whole. Got it.

Is your theory on drafting that we should hit on X amount of players from every draft? Or X amount of players over a 5 year sample from each specific round? Or something completely different? It sounds like you think we should get players with the majority of our picks every single year, hence lamenting the entirety of the 2021 draft despite the fact that 98% of all players from that year haven't had much play in the NHL.
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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Wonder if Logan mailloux got any of that. Mtl fans probably just think that’s pretty funny. This reinbacher guy though, f him.

Mtl typical.
There was some push back on the Mailloux pick .. for different reasons obviously., More a morals/ Ethics thing which did not draw the emo like this ; A more thoughtful push back
 

Senator Stanley

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So, hyper-fixating on individual picks with no regard for the larger context of the draft as a whole. Got it.

Is your theory on drafting that we should hit on X amount of players from every draft? Or X amount of players over a 5 year sample from each specific round? Or something completely different? It sounds like you think we should get players with the majority of our picks every single year, hence lamenting the entirety of the 2021 draft despite the fact that 98% of all players from that year haven't had much play in the NHL.

Do you really think we can't start to form opinions on the 2021 draft class? Everybody knows that prospects take time and some prospects take longer than others, but we can also see where that draft is trending for the Sens and it's trending towards abysmal.
 
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BondraTime

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So, hyper-fixating on individual picks with no regard for the larger context of the draft as a whole. Got it.

Is your theory on drafting that we should hit on X amount of players from every draft? Or X amount of players over a 5 year sample from each specific round? Or something completely different? It sounds like you think we should get players with the majority of our picks every single year, hence lamenting the entirety of the 2021 draft despite the fact that 98% of all players from that year haven't had much play in the NHL.
What does fixating on individual draft picks with no regard for the context of the draft as a whole mean? Our draft class was 6 individual picks. It's very simple to look at the context of the rest of the draft class. Some players have made the NHL right away, some have excelled in their Junior, NCAA and Pro leagues, some have not. They have all played 2 seasons and given 2 years worth of play to evaluate.

If you were to describe the post draft seasons of the guys we drafted, what would those evaluations of what they have done look like?
1- Tyler Boucher
2- Zack Ostapchuk
2- Ben Roger
3- Oliver Johansson
4- Carson Latimer
7- Chandler Romeo

If we have picks 10, 39, and 49, I'd expect to have 3 players who progress 2 years after the draft, at the very least are meeting expectations. Do I expect 3 NHLers? No. I don't expect to hit on every pick, not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. If your top picks aren't progressing well, your draft wasn't very good. You want to see progression, the whole point of the draft. Our picks progression was extremely, extremely, bad. We weren't the only team in the boat, Calgary were just as bad in that regard.

Ostapchuk is looking fantastic. Have said many times I would be fine taking him in the teens in that draft with hindsight. He's excelled.

Boucher is not progressing how you'd want any player taken, let alone a guy taken at 10th. He is a guy who can make it to the NHL

Roger wasn't offered a contract 23 months after the draft.

There is a very, VERY large difference between expecting to get players with every pick, and expecting the guys taken to progress. 5/6 of our picks haven't, 3 have already been cut. And we had three top 50 picks. You'd expect much better outlooks with that draft.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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What does fixating on individual draft picks with no regard for the context of the draft as a whole mean? Our draft class was 6 individual picks. It's very simple to look at the context of the rest of the draft class. Some players have made the NHL right away, some have excelled in their Junior, NCAA and Pro leagues, some have not. They have all played 2 seasons and given 2 years worth of play to evaluate.

If you were to describe the post draft seasons of the guys we drafted, what would those evaluations of what they have done look like?
1- Tyler Boucher
2- Zack Ostapchuk
2- Ben Roger
3- Oliver Johansson
4- Carson Latimer
7- Chandler Romeo

If we have picks 10, 39, and 49, I'd expect to have 3 players who progress 2 years after the draft, at the very least are meeting expectations. Do I expect 3 NHLers? No. I don't expect to hit on every pick, not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. If your top picks aren't progressing well, your draft wasn't very good. You want to see progression, the whole point of the draft. Our picks progression was extremely, extremely, bad. We weren't the only team in the boat, Calgary were just as bad in that regard.

Ostapchuk is looking fantastic. Have said many times I would be fine taking him in the teens in that draft with hindsight. He's excelled.

Boucher is not progressing how you'd want any player taken, let alone a guy taken at 10th. He is a guy who can make it to the NHL

Roger wasn't offered a contract 23 months after the draft.

There is a very, VERY large difference between expecting to get players with every pick, and expecting the guys taken to progress. 5/6 of our picks haven't, 3 have already been cut. And we had three top 50 picks. You'd expect much better outlooks with that draft.
Even the most rose coloured glasses boot lickers can't defend that draft. All they can do is rail against people for having issues with it.
 

aragorn

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Valuing size isn't a bad thing. You do need it for the playoffs. Also guys who have a high compete level. But I would like to see a bit more weight giving to hockey sense/IQ. And skating.

But I think what....maybe 5% of fourth rounders and beyond become full time NHLers? So yeah, the odds of this draft producing a kid who plays 500+ NHL games is pretty slim. That's why you really want to hold on to those first and second round picks.
I hear this a lot, but there is no evidence that the Sens staff don't measure on hockey IQ. Every team has their own way of measuring players & Ottawa has had different scouts including head scouts over the yrs. I would expect that every team measures players in a very similar manner. I used to complain that Ott had too many small soft players & needed to get bigger & tougher. They also have plenty of skill on this team, their top line was one of the best in the NHL.

How much better would they have been last yr if Norris would have played on that 2nd line with DBC & Batherson? IMO they draft who they believe is the best player on the board & I believe occassionally they might also go for need. Sometimes they hit home runs, sometimes they get on base & a lot of times every team strikes out more often than get a hit. It's the nature of the beast & the draft is 7 rds, a lot of these guys are never going to make it. Those with the high hockey IQ, some skill including tough skill figure it out & make it which is great for them.
Idiotic; Shameful.


Disgusting how some fans would blame a young man who just accomplished his dream for the team picking him. It's the dispicable side of social media & how crazy some people go over hockey, a sport we play & watch for FUN. We still have some evolving to do.
And when you watched him play, full games, what did you think of his game?
I saw him at the development camp last yr & wrote about him. I thought he looked good, was skilled & did not look out of place. I could see how he would have done very well in a lower league like most better players do. Not sure what his future is here though but Bondratime is right, at every level as you move up it gets harder because all the players are better, bigger, faster, tougher & also are playing harder & want to make it too.
trade him to Ottawa.
We shit on management, not on players.

unless you are Josh Brown, Zaitsev, Anisimov, Boedker, Ceci, Harpur, Legwand, Kuba, Kovalev, Lee...
You forgot about Boucher, I imagine every fan base has it's favourites & not so favourite. I would just hope it stays on this site & people aren't writing to the player when nothing is their fault. It's management that picks them, it's management in charge of their development & it's management that decides whether to sign them or let them go.

The player's job is to do their best & do what the pros are asking them to do, period. The fact is that there are always going to be players that come along that are better than some of the players on any team & changes are made every yr. Some players listen & some players think they know better & some players change their role to make it & some don't & some are stars in one league & never move up for whatever reason. That's sports.
 
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BondraTime

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Even the most rose coloured glasses boot lickers can't defend that draft. All they can do is rail against people for having issues with it.
Don't think boot-licking has anything to do with it, but there has been 2 years since the draft, we have a lot of evaluations to base things on.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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You forgot about Boucher, I imagine every fan base has it's favourites & not so favourite. I would just hope it stays on this site & people aren't writing to the player when nothing is their fault. It's management that picks them, it's management in charge of their development & it's management that decides whether to sign them or let them go.
I don't think anyone attacks Boucher the person. I think most of us like what Boucher can bring. I like what he can bring. I just would have liked him picked later. Thats a Draft comment. Its not a comment against Boucher. Sens fans never had vitriol to the point where there was a question as to whether he should come in to Dev camp. The Montreal reaction is far worse . On another level worse.
 

SENATOR

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All those players will not see NHL.

1- Tyler Boucher
2- Zack Ostapchuk
2- Ben Roger
3- Oliver Johansson
4- Carson Latimer
7- Chandler Romeo
 

aragorn

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I don't think anyone attacks Boucher the person. I think most of us like what Boucher can bring. I like what he can bring. I just would have liked him picked later. Thats a Draft comment. Its not a comment against Boucher. Sens fans never had vitriol to the point where there was a question as to whether he should come in to Dev camp. The Montreal reaction is far worse . On another level worse.
I totally agree, their reaction is horrible. I remember I liked Grubbe in that draft who was ranked later & you & Rafi told me about Boucher. So I checked him out & after he was drafted I went to the development camp to watch him & was quite impressed with his shot, vision & bulldog style.

It's clear he isn't a typical top 10 player, but he could be the kind of player they will need for a future playoff run but he has to stay healthy. If he turns into a Chris Neil type of player that would be great for Ott & no one will care where he was drafted, at least I hope so.
 
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Bileur

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No draft since 2000 have the Sens lost 3 guys less than 2 years since they were drafted.

Specifically the Boucher pick? They used a 49th overall pick on a 6’5 D with no offense, who couldn’t stay as a top 4 D in the OHL for London, who they didn’t bother to offer a contract too. What does NHL games played 2 years after the draft have to do with how a pick is progressing? It’s not like the draft was yesterday and we have nothing to go on to see how a draft pick has progressed. We have 2 full seasons to evaluate his play. Can he become a great player for us? Absolutely. Has his past 2 seasons been what we wanted to see from him? Obviously not.

Sens were the worst drafting team in the league from 2012-14. There was a ton of lamenting about wasting picks on a lot of guys taken in that frame.

We just had Andreas England V 2.0 with Roger. That pick was laughed at immediately by lots. We had him in our top 20 and he had generational compete. There is been tons of laughably bad moment by the Sens drafting, just like there has been tons of good. 2021, undoubtedly, falls deep in the bad side of things as of now.

Let me preface by saying this is 100% sincere and not sarcastic, Englund>>Roger at the time of the draft.

Englund at least had some pedigree having played on National teams and worn letters at all kinds of levels. He seems like a guy who would have been solid in the 90’s but just not skilled enough now.
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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I totally agree, their reaction is horrible. I remember I liked Grubbe in that draft who was ranked later & you & Rafi told me about Boucher. So I checked him out & after he was drafted I went to the development camp to watch him & was quite impressed with his shot, vision & bulldog style.

It's clear he isn't a typical top 10 player, but he could be the kind of player they will need for a future playoff run but he has to stay healthy. If he turns into a Chris Neil type of player that would be great for Ott & no one will care where he was drafted, at least I hope so.
No shortage of opinions when it comes to the draft. It should never result in personal attacks on a player.
 

aragorn

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All those players will not see NHL.

1- Tyler Boucher
2- Zack Ostapchuk
2- Ben Roger
3- Oliver Johansson
4- Carson Latimer
7- Chandler Romeo
Make a poll see what people think. Ostapchuk for sure & Boucher will also get a shot to make it.
Let me preface by saying this is 100% sincere and not sarcastic, Englund>>Roger at the time of the draft.

Englund at least had some pedigree having played on National teams and worn letters at all kinds of levels.
I heard that Sens scouts went to some game during Covid where there were next to no games going on where Roger was playing & apparently he had a great game & was skating really well for a big guy & that game sold them on him. It happens sometimes guys have a great game at the right time & he did. Unfortunately, it might have been his best game ever. Too bad, next.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Make a poll see what people think. Ostapchuk for sure & Boucher will also get a shot to make it.

I heard that Sens scouts went to some game during Covid where there were next to no games going on where Roger was playing & apparently he had a great game & was skating really well for a big guy & that game sold them on him. It happens sometimes guys have a great game at the right time & he did. Unfortunately, it might have been his best game ever. Too bad, next.
No games played according to HockeyDb or Elite Prospects in 20/21
 

aragorn

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No shortage of opinions when it comes to the draft. It should never result in personal attacks on a player.
I'm hoping to see a line in Belleville although I know it won't happen given they are all young & two are rookies of Ostapchuk - Greig - Boucher. I imagine that would be a pain in the ass line to play against.
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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I'm hoping to see a line in Belleville although I know it won't happen given they are all young & two are rookies of Ostapchuk - Greig - Boucher. I imagine that would be a pain in the ass line to play against.
Could be worth watching for sure
 

Bileur

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Make a poll see what people think. Ostapchuk for sure & Boucher will also get a shot to make it.

I heard that Sens scouts went to some game during Covid where there were next to no games going on where Roger was playing & apparently he had a great game & was skating really well for a big guy & that game sold them on him. It happens sometimes guys have a great game at the right time & he did. Unfortunately, it might have been his best game ever. Too bad, next.

IIRC they had seen him play in a lower league the year prior, and had inside info from his trainer that he had had a huge growth spurt and put on 30lbs. They took a flyer on him without seeing him against better competition.

Huge gamble in the second round and it didn’t work out.

I'm hoping to see a line in Belleville although I know it won't happen given they are all young & two are rookies of Ostapchuk - Greig - Boucher. I imagine that would be a pain in the ass line to play against.

I like the idea for the line but I’d rather split them over two or three lines and insulate them with some vets. It would also help spread the physicality.
 
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aragorn

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IIRC they had seen him play in a lower league the year prior, and had inside info from his trainer that he had had a huge growth spurt and put on 30lbs. They took a flyer on him without seeing him against better competition.

Huge gamble in the second round and it didn’t work out.



I like the idea for the line but I’d rather split them over two or three lines and insulate them with some vets.
Yes, Logan Brown didn't work out either, there are plenty of examples all over the league in the early rds even 1st OAs not working out. It's the nature of the beast when they are 18 yrs old. Some make it but most don't.

IIRC they had seen him play in a lower league the year prior, and had inside info from his trainer that he had had a huge growth spurt and put on 30lbs. They took a flyer on him without seeing him against better competition.

Huge gamble in the second round and it didn’t work out.



I like the idea for the line but I’d rather split them over two or three lines and insulate them with some vets. It would also help spread the physicality.
Yes, it's why I doubt they do it, they don't usually like to put two rookies on the same line.
 

Bileur

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Yes, Logan Brown didn't work out either, there are plenty of examples all over the league in the early rds even 1st OAs not working out. It's the nature of the beast when they are 18 yrs old. Some make it but most don't.

Sure all picks have risk, but the process you’ve undertaken to evaluate the prospect determines the level of risk.

Cliff diving is always risky, cliff diving without checking the depth of the water is significantly more risky.

Logan Brown didn’t work out but at least they have had many viewings against good competition to evaluate him. Brown was a pretty big risk but with a huge potential reward. It didn’t work out but I don’t mind that gamble. Roger was a huge risk at a premium pick but with limited upside. I don’t think those picks are comparable at all.
 

BankStreetParade

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What does fixating on individual draft picks with no regard for the context of the draft as a whole mean? Our draft class was 6 individual picks. It's very simple to look at the context of the rest of the draft class. Some players have made the NHL right away, some have excelled in their Junior, NCAA and Pro leagues, some have not. They have all played 2 seasons and given 2 years worth of play to evaluate.
It's relative to the pool of players available beyond each pick. Let's say we won't discuss trading up for selections because that's impossible to quantify each individual scenario and result in any meaningful way.

What progress, from say the 10-12 picks after Ben Roger, are you tracking that makes you feel like our draft pick is singularly worse than the others? Did you initially have that grouping of picks rated highly? If you're picking from a weaker pool of talent within that grouping, maybe drafting for another variable like size is theoretically a better approach? Maybe philosophically you look at all of the players' assessments and determine that any of the next 10-12 names on the board are going to be roughly equivalent in value. Maybe some organizations value character? Some IQ? Some athleticism? And some, perhaps, size?

This also doesn't mean that the pick isn't bad. It's obviously a bad pick anytime you make a selection and the player doesn't turn into anything beyond that. But it's also an infinitesimal argument because you could say any player, picked after someone you selected and who outperforms the player you selected, would have been a better pick. You look at long-term averages to determine the real value of your drafting. If you get 6 players from 1 draft and 1 each from the next 3 drafts, does that mean you're a good drafting team or a bad drafting team? Or is it more reflective of the quality of the drafts, the positions you pick from, etc.? If you don't get any players from a draft does that mean it was a failure? Or is it even realistic to have that expectation to begin with?
If you were to describe the post draft seasons of the guys we drafted, what would those evaluations of what they have done look like?
1- Tyler Boucher
2- Zack Ostapchuk
2- Ben Roger
3- Oliver Johansson
4- Carson Latimer
7- Chandler Romeo

If we have picks 10, 39, and 49, I'd expect to have 3 players who progress 2 years after the draft, at the very least are meeting expectations. Do I expect 3 NHLers? No. I don't expect to hit on every pick, not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. If your top picks aren't progressing well, your draft wasn't very good. You want to see progression, the whole point of the draft. Our picks progression was extremely, extremely, bad. We weren't the only team in the boat, Calgary were just as bad in that regard.
Progression in what regards though? And compared to what baseline? Because progress means absolutely nothing if it doesn't end with a positive result. Like, over a large scale model of 5 years or 10 years, how many players at picks 32 to 62 are having meaningful NHL careers? The probabilities, on that scale, are indicative of the expectation for draft picks in that range. Defensemen selected in the 2nd round typically have a 12% chance of a meaningful career (more than 200GP). There were 13 defensemen taken in the 2nd round in 2021, which means 1.56 players are expected to have meaningful careers.
Ostapchuk is looking fantastic. Have said many times I would be fine taking him in the teens in that draft with hindsight. He's excelled.
That's great but, again, what does progress mean relative to the picks that came after him? Are we grading him on a standalone basis but others relative to the picks around them? Because the insinuation every time someone says "that was a bad pick" about a draft selection is that there was a better pick to be made. Was there a better pick to be made after Ostapchuk?
Boucher is not progressing how you'd want any player taken, let alone a guy taken at 10th. He is a guy who can make it to the NHL
But isn't progressing compared to what and compared to who?
 

BondraTime

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It's relative to the pool of players available beyond each pick. Let's say we won't discuss trading up for selections because that's impossible to quantify each individual scenario and result in any meaningful way.

What progress, from say the 10-12 picks after Ben Roger, are you tracking that makes you feel like our draft pick is singularly worse than the others? Did you initially have that grouping of picks rated highly? If you're picking from a weaker pool of talent within that grouping, maybe drafting for another variable like size is theoretically a better approach? Maybe philosophically you look at all of the players' assessments and determine that any of the next 10-12 names on the board are going to be roughly equivalent in value. Maybe some organizations value character? Some IQ? Some athleticism? And some, perhaps, size?

This also doesn't mean that the pick isn't bad. It's obviously a bad pick anytime you make a selection and the player doesn't turn into anything beyond that. But it's also an infinitesimal argument because you could say any player, picked after someone you selected and who outperforms the player you selected, would have been a better pick. You look at long-term averages to determine the real value of your drafting. If you get 6 players from 1 draft and 1 each from the next 3 drafts, does that mean you're a good drafting team or a bad drafting team? Or is it more reflective of the quality of the drafts, the positions you pick from, etc.? If you don't get any players from a draft does that mean it was a failure? Or is it even realistic to have that expectation to begin with?

Progression in what regards though? And compared to what baseline? Because progress means absolutely nothing if it doesn't end with a positive result. Like, over a large scale model of 5 years or 10 years, how many players at picks 32 to 62 are having meaningful NHL careers? The probabilities, on that scale, are indicative of the expectation for draft picks in that range. Defensemen selected in the 2nd round typically have a 12% chance of a meaningful career (more than 200GP). There were 13 defensemen taken in the 2nd round in 2021, which means 1.56 players are expected to have meaningful careers.

That's great but, again, what does progress mean relative to the picks that came after him? Are we grading him on a standalone basis but others relative to the picks around them? Because the insinuation every time someone says "that was a bad pick" about a draft selection is that there was a better pick to be made. Was there a better pick to be made after Ostapchuk?

But isn't progressing compared to what and compared to who?
After Ben Roger?

Knies and Moser are the obvious ones. Moser was an off the board pick, wouldn’t have even looked his way, but he was there.

Colton Dach, Aatu Raty, Vincent Iorio, Riley Kidney, Evan Nause, Jack Peart, Sean Behreans, Helanius, Kapenen were all ranked in that range or higher, were all taken from 50-64, and have all progressed well or very well. I liked Svosil a lot, was ranked in the top 50, went 20 picks after and looks to be an NHL D already

Every single pick taken after Roger in the 2nd was signed by their team, or still with their team. They all still have those picks. The Sens don’t.

After Ostapchuk there are quite a few guys taken that I’m sure the other team wouldn’t trade for Ostapchuk, even if I would.

Scott Morrow went the pick right after him, and is looking unbelievable. Pinelli went 3 picks after and looks great.

We should be, and are, thrilled with Ostapchuk. He has progressed amazingly.

Progression based on what you expect from your pick. If, 2 years ago, we know what Boucher and Roger progressed into now, do we take them where we did? I think that’s a resounding, and very obvious, no.

The same way we looked at our 2020 draft a year after, and 2 years after, and could say that it was an extremely good draft, and our guys were progressing extremely well.

Absolutely some teams value some things more than others, that was what the quip and inference from the recap was trying to relay.
 
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