2023-24 Frank J. Selke Trophy finalists: Aleksander Barkov, Auston Matthews, Jordan Staal

[Forge]

It's weird how many people equate penalty killing with being good defensively

 

[The Podium]

It's weird how many people equate penalty killing with being good defensively

Remember the season Grabner was an elite PKer

 

[Regal]

Selke voting has been pretty distorted over the years. The trophy was obviously created for the unheralded but very important Bob Gainey's of the world - players who play primarily a shutdown role at the expense of offense. -The type of guys who are sent over the boards when the other team's top line is taking an offensive zone face-off.

Somewhere along the way it converted, at least for some voters, into a "pumping my favorite superstar" vote, statistics be damned.

If it were up to me, I'm often voting for non-household name 3rd liners who are taking the toughest 5v5 match-ups, penalty killing 2 or more minutes per game, and taking a majority or at least near majority defensive zone starts. That's not a sexy vote.

Anyway, I like the Staal nomination.

33% offensive zone draws
2 minutes plus PK per game
Very effective in terms of ES goals against despite taking tough match-ups.

Checks all 3 boxes to a very high degree.

I agree to some extent when it comes to players who are still in fairly offensive roles, like Matthews, but a lot of top 6 lines go head to head against the other team’s best and being able to play offensively aids in defense due to possession and getting the puck out of the zone, and that’s where some of the top line matchup centers make sense. Some “defensive” 3rd liners aren’t actually that good at limiting things defensively because of that. Staal has been, but I think the Bergeron, ROR, Couturier, Kesler, Kopitar types have generally been better at their best than most 3rd liners, though some years they were getting reputation votes while in more offensive roles.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, but not killing penalties doesn’t make you bad defensively. Some teams don’t want their stars on the PK because they’re more useful offensively.

Sounds like they should have had AM34 killing more penalties in the playoffs then!

 

[ScottishCanuck]

Don’t get me wrong, he’s not a bum defensively. But Selke level? No.

 

[CanadienShark]

Matthews...

Barkov in a landslide.

 

[Regal]

It's weird how many people equate penalty killing with being good defensively

Penalty killing is a coaches decision and being good at it isn’t the same as being good defensively 5v5, but it’s still an important defensive role. You can be known as a strong defensive forward and not PK, but if you’re naming the forward who had the best defensive season, they should probably PK regularly.

 

[Divine]

Sounds like they should have had AM34 killing more penalties in the playoffs then!

Not what you would want to do with an injured player

 

[Souker]

Of all trophy nominations so far, this one is by far the worst. There are easily 4-5 players that deserve it more than 2/3 of those guys.
Popularity/reputation nominations.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Of all trophy nominations so far, this one is by far the worst. There are easily 4-5 players that deserve it more than 2/3 of those guys.
Popularity/reputation nominations.

Won't be surprised to see the rest of the top 5-10 not that far behind Matthews and Staal. Barkov will likely run away with 1st place votes is my guess. And what's the difference really between 3rd and 4th place in a trophy voting? To me, absolutely nothing, even though only 3 are "nominated." There isn't a re-vote of the top 3, it's just the final standings of 1 vote anyways so does being nominated but not winning even have any significance?

 

[Midnight Judges]

I agree to some extent when it comes to players who are still in fairly offensive roles, like Matthews, but a lot of top 6 lines go head to head against the other team’s best and being able to play offensively aids in defense due to possession and getting the puck out of the zone, and that’s where some of the top line matchup centers make sense. Some “defensive” 3rd liners aren’t actually that good at limiting things defensively because of that. Staal has been, but I think the Bergeron, ROR, Couturier, Kesler, Kopitar types have generally been better at their best than most 3rd liners, though some years they were getting reputation votes while in more offensive roles.

Each of those players burnished their defensive reputations doing some actual defensive heavy lifting though.

Bergeron's deployment changed significantly over his career - and for good hockey reasons - but the Selke votes didn't really reflect it. He never had higher offensive zone starts than defensive zone starts in a season until he was 31. And even though his deployment changed significantly more for offense as he was teamed with Marchand and Pastrnak, his penalty killing contributions largely remained and his goals-against remained very strong.

 

[CanadienShark]

Pleasantly surprised to see Staal on this list. His lower-end offense has been a sticking point for Selke recognition over the years.

This being only his second finalist appearance is insane when you consider he’s one of the best pure defenders of the past 20 years.

You mean he wasn't nominated?

It's weird how many people equate penalty killing with being good defensively

It's weird how many people (Leafs homers) think Matthews is elite defensively.

 

[NotCommitted]

Clearly most people on here don’t watch Matthews.

If anything it’s laughable it took this long to be recognized

You got me, but from stat watching perspective him being in the top3 makes no sense. All the stats seem to tell me he isn't used like a Selke player (and why would he, guy scored almost 70 goals), and his per 60 rates for corsi, goals and xG against are nothing special, while starting way less in the D-zone than Barkov for example. Just looking at GF/GA per 60 5v5 for those two, Matthews is about 4GF / 2.5GA (60% GF) while Barkov is 3.5GF / 1.5GA (70% GF) and underlying numbers are similar.

If Barkov doesn't win this, I don't know what to say. Him and Staal have truly elite defensive numbers while Barkov's offense is on a completely different level.

Not a knock at Matthews at all, IMO he's used in a way that no matter how great he was defensively, he should have about zero chance at Selke.

 

[mistaclick]

Matthews: 93 shot blocks (tied 2nd for forwards) and 85 takeaways (2nd for forwards)
Barkov: 50 shot blocks (tied for 79th) and 61 takeaways (tied for 20th)

Barkov kills penalties and is excellent in face offs, but I can see why Matthews would be nominated for best defensive forward.. all while potting 69 with over 100 points. Shouldn’t be a runaway win for Barkov.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Easy Barkov W.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Matthews is a questionable pick but people are sleeping on Staal. Dude was -14 on a stacked team and had just 15 minutes of ATOI. Kopitar and JEE are robbed.

 

[Fantomas]

Matthews's Selke trophy skills certainly translate in the playoffs.

This is a bad look, everyone knows it, and Leafs fans should sit this one out.

 

[Beerz]

Matthews: 93 shot blocks (tied 2nd for forwards) and 85 takeaways (2nd for forwards)
Barkov: 50 shot blocks (tied for 79th) and 61 takeaways (tied for 20th)

Barkov kills penalties and is excellent in face offs, but I can see why Matthews would be nominated for best defensive forward.. all while potting 69 with over 100 points. Shouldn’t be a runaway win for Barkov.

That's because Barkov isn't being hemmed in his own zone being berated with shots

 

[HuskyBruinPride]

Yes, but not killing penalties doesn’t make you bad defensively. Some teams don’t want their stars on the PK because they’re more useful offensively.

Nah that's a load of crap. Selke caliber defenders should be staples in the PK. Bergeron was, he wasn't rested from the PK just for being a star. Matthews as a finalist is an abomination. He's gotten better defensively but he's nowhere near the top 3, not even close.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

This is a good example as to why NHL awards are a terrible barometer for HOF: awards are voted on by media, media base their votes on the narratives they create/find compelling, and a lot of people in the media are extremely dumb.

Leafs fans seem to think that just because Matthews is a good/very good defender, it makes him a reasonable option. Sidney Crosby was never top 3 in Selke voting, Pavelski wasn't.... the list goes on. Matthews belongs in the conversation, probably in the top 10, but there's no chance he lands this high on the list if he played literally anywhere else.

 

[mistaclick]

That's because Barkov isn't being hemmed in his own zone being berated with shots

Then why’s he only got 20 tucks and 80 points on the year?

With all that OZ time you’d think he’d have more..

 

[frederixx]

Who votes for this, journalists? It shows how bad they are and how little they really know about hockey. Only a handful of them are knowledgeable

 

[BostonBruins11]

There seems to be a lot of Leaf fans in the "Professional Hockey Writers Association members" this year, the homerism is so blatantly obvious. Matthews being nominated is an insult to the award.

 

[digmor crusher]

Is this a joke? Matthews. Another example of the Toronto based media, who only watch Leaf games, pumping their hero;s.

 

[strattonius]

You should be one of your team's top PK'ers if you're going to win the Selke.

It's homer recognition having Matthews a finalist.

Marner and now Matthews have been finalists for the Selke and this is a team that questions its leaders when it comes to the playoffs. It's such media generated nonsense the favouritism this team gets.