2018 off-season thread

[BrindamoursNose]

It's a jerk-laced extension of previous disagreements we've had about Hextall and the messaging to the fanbase. How, what he says, and doesn't say, should be taken at face value, and the cherry-picking of when something is truthful or not is kinda baloney.

In times past I've been critical of what he's said, and was responded to, "Well, what did you expect him to say?" And his words were dismissed. This is something that you agree with, and are accepting the words to be truthful.

Just pointing out the inconsistency. I hope he's true to his word, but have misgivings until the actions line up to match.

Do you think he's lying in this article?

 

[deadhead]

If Holmgren was GM you know he'd have traded 2 1st rd picks, Sanheim, TK and Frost for a couple "name" veterans, and overpaid for two or three 2nd tier guys.
The Flyers would make it to the CFs a couple times and maybe the SC finals once, then it would all crash and burn for a decade, with the team struggling to make the playoffs as they were up against the salary cap, the farm system was stripped of top talent, etc.

Been there, done that.

 

[BernieParent]

All Hextall is saying is he had a long-term plan what was approved by management four years ago, and nothing has changed.
Just about any franchise would be happy with a playoff appearance and 98 points four years into a rebuild.
Problem is Flyers fans were spoiled by two long playoff runs, and ignore the 5 year hiatus in between.

Before you can go on another long run, especially in today's NHL, you have to build an impressive talent base, both your core and the assets needed to augment that core, whether it be depth players, trade ammunition or cap room.

Until the core is ready to compete at a high level, there isn't a lot Hextall can do to accelerate the process.
He can continue to add talent, but "you can't hurry love"

Most players aren't playoff ready until 21-22 for top players, 23-24 for most players.
2017-18: Couts (25), Patrick (19), TK (20) Lindblom (21), Frost (18), Ghost (24), Provorov (21), Sanheim (21), Myers (21)
Hextall can look at that and know the core is in place, but probably two years away from being ready to carry the playoff load.

I liked this post with the caveat that there are things Hextall can do now to significantly improve the team, but (my hope / expectation) only for the right price and if it fits the plan. I think the key word in his discussion of deals is "reactionary". Hextall doesn't feel pressure to make the big splashy move but if something great presents itself, he has the assets to make it happen and work in the team's favour.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Where did it lay out Hextall's plan?

There isn't exactly a blueprint (since the public would never receive one of those), but context clues lay it out (Prioritizing future contention over current contention, building through the farm system):

"I'm not going to do something to make me popular. I'm not going to do something that's going to take away from the success of our team to put a few more people in the stands."

"We're not going to change what we set out to do four years ago," Hextall said. "We put a plan in place. To go sideways now would be the wrong thing to do.

"It sort of took two years to get the wheels in motion and we're on plan. Are we happy where we're at right now? Hell no."
There's merit behind the Flyers' belief in their pace and path to an ultimate goal of contending for multiple Stanley Cups, not just one.

"Ron's our guy. We believe in the system, we like the vision, we like the strategy, the pipeline. These young players coming up, there's a lot of excitement. From the business side, it's been terrific."

"We're not going to make a change to appease people or because we are supposed to or for whatever reason. We're going to make changes to get better."

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

I'd be perfectly fine with what he is doing if he fired the coach and then he and the new coach ejected some of the dross from the roster, or at the very least played them in amounts that suited their (lack of) talent. My discontent with this team at the moment is very nearly 100% down to coaching (at both levels).

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I'm pretty sure those quotes are just addressing the traditional average fan who's probably pining for them to sign every major UFA under the sun. Take it for what it is.

I really would not praise the tone of an article from an org mouthpiece, though. That is what it is too.

 

[Rebels57]

There isn't exactly a blueprint (since the public would never receive one of those), but context clues lay it out (Prioritizing future contention over current contention, building through the farm system):

This article told us nothing we didn't already know when he was hired. He has always said the exact same shit time after time.

Unfortunately, draft and develop only is never going to bring this organization a Cup. Especially at the excruciatingly slow pace this team develops prospects and deems them ready. I would venture to guess that no GM in the modern era has taken over a team, not made a single significant transaction, and won a Cup.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

This article told us nothing we didn't already know when he was hired. He has always said the exact same **** time after time.

Unfortunately, draft and develop only is never going to bring this organization a Cup. Especially at the excruciatingly slow pace this team develops prospects and deems them ready. I would venture to guess that no GM in the modern era has taken over a team, not made a single significant transaction, and won a Cup.

Well then the article shouldn't have been much of a surprise for you then.

And it's silly to think Hextall will never make a significant transaction to help the team win a Cup. First of all, I think he already has (Del Zotto), but we weren't in actual contention so I'm not sure you're going to count that (even though I would). Regardless, he hasn't had the $ to make a significant transaction yet nor has it been time to do it if we wanted to seriously compete.

I don't freak out about Hextall's strategy because it's going according to plan. No reason to doubt it until it fails, IMO.

 

[Ruck Over]

Do you think he's lying in this article?

No.

I don't think he's lied in any of his interactions with the media. Which is a way of saying, when anyone here dismisses a Hextall talking point as GM'speak, or obvious placating, it's incorrect. He was just quoted as saying he won't do things to make him popular for the sake of it. So when he says there's enough talent on the team to compete, this/that/& the other player(s) are good contributing NHL level, I take him at his word those are his beliefs. And that scares me he has no eye for talent evaluation of non-prospect players, nor a keen eye for coaches (Hakstol in the extreme, Lappy in the mild).

Because he does come across as straight forward and honest, I don't give him the benefit of the doubt with wiggle room to what he says, and what he means. The previous quip about the number of words in the English language, I don't doubt he knows those words, I fear he doesn't care to use any more than the ones he's most comfortable with already.

 

[Rebels57]

Well then the article shouldn't have been much of a surprise for you then.

And it's silly to think Hextall will never make a significant transaction to help the team win a Cup. First of all, I think he already has (Del Zotto), but we weren't in actual contention so I'm not sure you're going to count that (even though I would). Regardless, he hasn't had the $ to make a significant transaction yet nor has it been time to do it if we wanted to seriously compete.

I don't freak out about Hextall's strategy because it's going according to plan. No reason to doubt it until it fails, IMO.

Del Zotto was plucked off of the scrap heap after being a train wreck in Nashville. He gave us a couple of solid seasons but that was hardly a significant addition.

I doubt a part of Hextalls plan was to not have won a single playoff series after 4 years and to get utterly embarassed in the 2 appearances.

 

[Curufinwe]

That's why he said Hell no, he's not happy with where they are at after the loss to Pit.

 

[Ruck Over]

Well then the article shouldn't have been much of a surprise for you then.

And it's silly to think Hextall will never make a significant transaction to help the team win a Cup. First of all, I think he already has (Del Zotto), but we weren't in actual contention so I'm not sure you're going to count that (even though I would). Regardless, he hasn't had the $ to make a significant transaction yet nor has it been time to do it if we wanted to seriously compete.

I don't freak out about Hextall's strategy because it's going according to plan. No reason to doubt it until it fails, IMO.

This article wasn't a surpise.

I do not count Del Zotto, as he was the same low-risk contract as the Russian players were. Also, MDZ made it known he wanted to stay in Philly, but he was not offered retention because reasons. Instead the Flyers played worse defenseman (gonna stick with Hagg and Manning, although personally I'd include AMac as well). If Hextall were serious about improving the team, that was an easy keep.

Regarding money, he's paid to get creative. He could've had more money to utilize by waiving/buying-out Lehtera, adding a draft pick, or retain money, to trade someone and lower the overall payroll. The Pronger/Vinny/Umberger roadblocks weren't an issue last year. The Val/Lehtera money he knowingly did to himself. It's nice that there won't be any bonus overages into next year's cap. After digging out of cap hell, there weren't any notable uses of it last year, this year and the immediate future is TBD, indicators are looking passive.

Philadelphia Flyers Daily Cap Tracker - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[BrindamoursNose]

No.

I don't think he's lied in any of his interactions with the media. Which is a way of saying, when anyone here dismisses a Hextall talking point as GM'speak, or obvious placating, it's incorrect. He was just quoted as saying he won't do things to make him popular for the sake of it. So when he says there's enough talent on the team to compete, this/that/& the other player(s) are good contributing NHL level, I take him at his word those are his beliefs. And that scares me he has no eye for talent evaluation of non-prospect players, nor a keen eye for coaches (Hakstol in the extreme, Lappy in the mild).

Because he does come across as straight forward and honest, I don't give him the benefit of the doubt with wiggle room to what he says, and what he means. The previous quip about the number of words in the English language, I don't doubt he knows those words, I fear he doesn't care to use any more than the ones he's most comfortable with already.

I'm glad you don't think he's lying (since he's saying some pretty unpopular stuff here I think), but I can't agree that he doesn't lie to the media ever.

GMs lie all the time, like I had said. I don't know how that can be argued (since that seems to be the sticking point for you here.)

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Del Zotto was plucked off of the scrap heap after being a train wreck in Nashville. He gave us a couple of solid seasons but that was hardly a significant addition.

I doubt a part of Hextalls plan was to not have won a single playoff series after 4 years and to get utterly embarassed in the 2 appearances.

But he was a significant acquisition, right? I remember him as arguably our best defenseman by year's end. That's significant.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

This article wasn't a surpise.

I do not count Del Zotto, as he was the same low-risk contract as the Russian players were. Also, MDZ made it known he wanted to stay in Philly, but he was not offered retention because reasons. Instead the Flyers played worse defenseman (gonna stick with Hagg and Manning, although personally I'd include AMac as well). If Hextall were serious about improving the team, that was an easy keep.

Regarding money, he's paid to get creative. He could've had more money to utilize by waiving/buying-out Lehtera, adding a draft pick, or retain money, to trade someone and lower the overall payroll. The Pronger/Vinny/Umberger roadblocks weren't an issue last year. The Val/Lehtera money he knowingly did to himself. It's nice that there won't be any bonus overages into next year's cap. After digging out of cap hell, there weren't any notable uses of it last year, this year and the immediate future is TBD, indicators are looking passive.

Philadelphia Flyers Daily Cap Tracker - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

But he was still a significant addition, no matter how much $ was invested. He played very well, especially in the beginning for us. Toward the end, I didn't think he was worth it either ($).

Well he's not paid to get creative exactly; some GMs are given that goal of course (well, most), but Hextall has been under specific directives it seems. According to the article, ownership and him had an understanding as to what their plan was and he's doing what they've asked. Everything we know suggests that is true and he's following the plan by riding out bad deals, keeping picks and saving future cap space. I suppose the creativity has been how to maximize his future assets, but not for competing now I'd say. But that's just my opinion anyways.

I am quite thrilled where we're at for 2 years or so down the line, but I also know people don't really want to hear that. Cest la vie.

 

[Rebels57]

But he was a significant acquisition, right? I remember him as arguably our best defenseman by year's end. That's significant.

He was the least nerdy kid in the AV Club for a few years, but that doesn't make him the Prom King.

 

[Ruck Over]

That's why he said Hell no, he's not happy with where they are at after the loss to Pit.

Instead of the rest of the story following that quote, it would've been nice to hear some GM-speak lip service about how he was going to change things to make folks happier. f***in A, even Lying Colonjello had a better end-of-season exit presser, and that guy, another master of saying nothing relevant, blows.

 

[Ruck Over]

I'm glad you don't think he's lying (since he's saying some pretty unpopular stuff here I think), but I can't agree that he doesn't lie to the media ever.

GMs lie all the time, like I had said. I don't know how that can be argued (since that seems to be the sticking point for you here.)

Have your cake and eat it too. This is where some of the jerk generates from. This line of thought, an unrelenting steadfastness to your notions, becomes exhaustive to interact with. Hextall (GMs) lie all the time, Hextall was telling the truth. Contradiction.

At worse, your statements present you as a sage knowing of when Hextall is lying vs telling the truth, and us other fans aren't as perspective as you. That doesn't go over well in civil discourse. Unless either, you are Hextall, or you have first hand knowledge of Hextall and his thoughts. To be an authority, some proof is often required for acceptance.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

He was the least nerdy kid in the AV Club for a few years, but that doesn't make him the Prom King.

You weren't asking for an example of him signing a Prom King though.

You were asking for a significant acquisition. Del Zotto was significant.

Why does this have to be a drawn-out argument? Can't you just agree it was a very good signing and Del Zotto helped the team?

 

[Ruck Over]

But he was still a significant addition, no matter how much $ was invested. He played very well, especially in the beginning for us. Toward the end, I didn't think he was worth it either ($).

Well he's not paid to get creative exactly; some GMs are given that goal of course (well, most), but Hextall has been under specific directives it seems. According to the article, ownership and him had an understanding as to what their plan was and he's doing what they've asked. Everything we know suggests that is true and he's following the plan by riding out bad deals, keeping picks and saving future cap space. I suppose the creativity has been how to maximize his future assets, but not for competing now I'd say. But that's just my opinion anyways.

I am quite thrilled where we're at for 2 years or so down the line, but I also know people don't really want to hear that. Cest la vie.

How can he be significant, if he wasn't worth it? That's a contradiction.

ALL GMS ARE PAID TO BE CREATIVE! If winning a championship was easy, paint by numbers, there'd be a constant rotation of the 30* NHL teams waiting for their year to win. GMs need to out-maneuver each other in order to win. Whether that be creative through free agency, trades, the draft, resigning your own players, it's all a matter of being creative**.




*31
**cre·a·tive
adjective: creative

1. 1.
   relating to or involving the imagination or original ideas, especially in the production of an artistic work.
   "change unleashes people's creative energy"
   • (of a person) having good imagination or original ideas.
     "Homer, the creative genius of Greek epic"
     

     synonyms:

     inventive, imaginative, innovative, experimental, original; More artistic, expressive, inspired, visionary; enterprising, resourceful "our students are encouraged to be creative"

     [TBODY] [/TBODY]

noun
informal
noun: creative; plural noun: creatives

1. 1.
   a person who is creative, typically in a professional context.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Have your cake and eat it too. This is where some of the jerk generates from. This line of thought, an unrelenting steadfastness to your notions, becomes exhaustive to interact with. Hextall (GMs) lie all the time, Hextall was telling the truth. Contradiction.

At worse, your statements present you as a sage knowing of when Hextall is lying vs telling the truth, and us other fans aren't as perspective as you. That doesn't go over well in civil discourse. Unless either, you are Hextall, or you have first hand knowledge of Hextall and his thoughts. To be an authority, some proof is often required for acceptance.

You're definitely not as perspective as me.

Kidding -- had to jab you there.

Well, I tried to lay out why I'm confident in my beliefs, but if you don't see what I see then what can I do?

I can't prove anything -- looks like we'll just have to disagree here.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

How can he be significant, if he wasn't worth it? That's a contradiction.

ALL GMS ARE PAID TO BE CREATIVE! If winning a championship was easy, paint by numbers, there'd be a constant rotation of the 30* NHL teams waiting for their year to win. GMs need to out-maneuver each other in order to win. Whether that be creative through free agency, trades, the draft, resigning your own players, it's all a matter of being creative**.




*31
**cre·a·tive
adjective: creative

1. 1.
   relating to or involving the imagination or original ideas, especially in the production of an artistic work.
   "change unleashes people's creative energy"
   • (of a person) having good imagination or original ideas.
     "Homer, the creative genius of Greek epic"
     

     synonyms:

     inventive, imaginative, innovative, experimental, original; More artistic, expressive, inspired, visionary; enterprising, resourceful "our students are encouraged to be creative"

     [TBODY] [/TBODY]

noun
informal
noun: creative; plural noun: creatives

1. 1.
   a person who is creative, typically in a professional context.

It isn't a contradiction. You can be significant while not being worth a certain amount of compensation relative to the rest of the team's situation.

Are we doing this thing where you're trying to be the smartest guy in the room again?

Just chillax broski.

 

[Ruck Over]

You weren't asking for an example of him signing a Prom King though.

You were asking for a significant acquisition. Del Zotto was significant.

Why does this have to be a drawn-out argument? Can't you just agree it was a very good signing and Del Zotto helped the team?

MDZ helped them do what? It was a signing, what metric takes this to very good? He cost nothing, was here, and left leaving nothing behind. Nothing to show for it other than these stat-lines:

2014-15	24	PHI	NHL	64	10	22	32	-5	34	8	1	1	4	15	7	0	119	8.4	224	1403	21:55	0	0		153	128	14	36
2015-16	25	PHI	NHL	52	4	9	13	-8	16	4	0	0	1	8	1	0	98	4.1	214	1217	23:25	0	0		140	104	14	31
2016-17	26	PHI	NHL	51	6	12	18	-5	28	6	0	0	0	10	1	1	92	6.5	188	995	19:30	0	1	0.0	173	85	9	30

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Even Rinaldo left behind more than MDZ.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

MDZ helped them do what? It was a signing, what metric takes this to very good? He cost nothing, was here, and left leaving nothing behind. Nothing to show for it other than these stat-lines:

2014-15	24	PHI	NHL	64	10	22	32	-5	34	8	1	1	4	15	7	0	119	8.4	224	1403	21:55	0	0		153	128	14	36
2015-16	25	PHI	NHL	52	4	9	13	-8	16	4	0	0	1	8	1	0	98	4.1	214	1217	23:25	0	0		140	104	14	31
2016-17	26	PHI	NHL	51	6	12	18	-5	28	6	0	0	0	10	1	1	92	6.5	188	995	19:30	0	1	0.0	173	85	9	30

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Even Rinaldo left behind more than MDZ.

Clear as mud

 

[baudib1]

Moving on from Del Zotto was a no-brainer. It would have been nice if Hexy could have worked that Lecavalier magic again with MacDonald but he decided he likes him. With Andy in tow, re-signing MDZ would have set the development of the young defensemen back and farther.

The problem with evaluating Hextall at the moment is that we don't know what short-term goals he has set for the team and himself. For the first few years his goal was obviously to improve the team's talent base and jettison some awful contracts. We mostly all agree that he's done a good job with that.

But the results at the NHL level haven't been great, and what little success the team has had (making the playoffs 2 years under Hakstol) has largely been due to the pieces in place before he was here. Homer did a fine job of assembling a veteran core (Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier, Gostisbehere) while Hextall has added a great group of kids (Provorov, Konecny, Patrick, Lindblom). Getting that to coalesce into something capable of winning a playoff round has been a challenge.

We're drawing nigh on the time when the on-ice product has to be better. Fans deserve to be rewarded for their years of patience.