OT: 2018 Football Thread: Camp is (almost) here!!!!!

[Hunter Gathers]

Foles averaged over 300 yards and 2 TDS per game in the playoffs. They won a SB bc they didn’t just try to control the clock and not lose. They were aggressive.

They hardly played conservative ground and pound. Being a good running team isn’t the same thing.

Well said. The idea that they won in spite of QB play is laughable.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

It's not debatable.

Ponder is atrocious and always has been. Present level Eli is by no means 2011 or even 2014 Eli, but with one of the worst offensive lines in recent memory, it hasn't helped him either.

Ponder is AFL/CFL material. The best part about him is his hot wife that reports for ESPN.

Except he has a league average pass protecting line. So try again. All metrics support that, by the way. Not just PFF.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Except he has a league average pass protecting line. So try again. All metrics support that, by the way. Not just PFF.

All metrics support what? That Ereck Flowers is one of the league leaders of all LT's since his debut in holding penalties? That Marshall Newhouse was a scrap yard pickup from the Giants, released by them, picked up by the raiders and then released by them?

Better yet, do the metrics support the fact that Chris Canty has said on multiple occasions on ESPN radio that they used to FIGHT over who got to go up against John Jerry because he's that damn bad?

Sorry, but no matter what your metrics would say, they're not average, they're atrocious and have been for a while.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Except he has a league average pass protecting line. So try again. All metrics support that, by the way. Not just PFF.

Oh and don't ever try to compare Ponder to Eli again.

One has had a borderline hall of fame career and the other is more talked about for his wife for a reason. Give it a break.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Oh and don't ever try to compare Ponder to Eli again.

One has had a borderline hall of fame career and the other is more talked about for his wife for a reason. Give it a break.

You do realize that no one is comparing Eli's career, correct? Doesn't seem that you do realize that, so perhaps I can explain it better (since I am in a good mood and all).

Current level Eli Manning is closer to when Christian Ponder was a starter than he is to prime Manning. Manning is a bottom tier starting QB right now at best.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

All metrics support what? That Ereck Flowers is one of the league leaders of all LT's since his debut in holding penalties? That Marshall Newhouse was a scrap yard pickup from the Giants, released by them, picked up by the raiders and then released by them?

Better yet, do the metrics support the fact that Chris Canty has said on multiple occasions on ESPN radio that they used to FIGHT over who got to go up against John Jerry because he's that damn bad?

Sorry, but no matter what your metrics would say, they're not average, they're atrocious and have been for a while.

Uh, John Jerry really isn't a bad player. That's comical. Jerry was the #31G for PFF. I don't have him ranked that high, but it also comes to why I disagree with PFF on the line. However, as a whole, our line was roughly league average. Not just to PFF, but to an excellent group like Football Outsiders, as well.

I get that you trust your eyes over this for some reason, but there is pretty much agreement out there. Perhaps you simply don't watch much of the NFL and for some reason don't realize how bad offensive line play is league-wide. Our line was nowhere near one of the worst lines. This idea that the line has been "atrocious . . . for a while" is simply not backed up by reality. It's a cringe-worthy hot take from someone who likely gets his NFL news from WFAN.

I take it you definitely don't watch the NCAA, because if you did, you'd understand just how troubling offensive line play is coming out of college.

Most of us who follow this closely aren't sure if it's actually the line play or if defenders have just gotten that much more athletic and skilled. It's probably more of a mix between the two. But NCAA coaches are doing a poor job adapting and this is translating to the NFL as well.

 

[YoSoyLalo]

regardles of whether or not the giants line is average, using that argument excuse Eli’s poor play is weak. Dude was all around ass this year, line or no line.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

regardles of whether or not the giants line is average, using that argument excuse Eli’s poor play is weak. Dude was all around ass this year, line or no line.

Hell, he actually contributed to some of the problems of the line with his complete inability to scramble and his weird penchant for running into his own players Mark Sanchez-style.

Dude was one of the worst starting QBs in the league regardless of the line. The guy couldn't even throw a slant or a screen properly last year. Perhaps Shurmur can somehow squeeze some more competency out of him, but I remain unconvinced. He'd be a hell of a hire if he could get Manning to play as a league-average player (in fact, we'd be close to a contending team if Manning could actually give us league-average play).

 

[Fvital92]

Hell, he actually contributed to some of the problems of the line with his complete inability to scramble and his weird penchant for running into his own players Mark Sanchez-style.

Dude was one of the worst starting QBs in the league regardless of the line. The guy couldn't even throw a slant or a screen properly last year. Perhaps Shurmur can somehow squeeze some more competency out of him, but I remain unconvinced. He'd be a hell of a hire if he could get Manning to play as a league-average player (in fact, we'd be close to a contending team if Manning could actually give us league-average play).

He wasn't that bad, I'm not in the bandwagon that we should build around him but you have to consider he was throwing to pratice squad receivers and the oline was bad ( I disagree that they were league average.)

 

[One Winged Angel]

Uh, John Jerry really isn't a bad player. That's comical. Jerry was the #31G for PFF. I don't have him ranked that high, but it also comes to why I disagree with PFF on the line. However, as a whole, our line was roughly league average. Not just to PFF, but to an excellent group like Football Outsiders, as well.

I get that you trust your eyes over this for some reason, but there is pretty much agreement out there. Perhaps you simply don't watch much of the NFL and for some reason don't realize how bad offensive line play is league-wide. Our line was nowhere near one of the worst lines. This idea that the line has been "atrocious . . . for a while" is simply not backed up by reality. It's a cringe-worthy hot take from someone who likely gets his NFL news from WFAN.

Nah, I don't get my NFL news from WFAN.

I don't sit there and check metrics in lieu of watching my games like you do and that's exactly why you think Ponder at his best is close to what Manning is now and I never said that, you again assumed that.

If you truly think that, you don't watch football at all, which is painfully apparent. So quit the pretentious bullshit act.

Ponder's very best season saw him throw 2,900 yards and 18 touchdowns to 12 interceptions for for a 62.1 completion % and a 52.1 QB rating. He had Percy Harvin for 9 games and Kyle Rudolph went to the Pro Bowl that year scoring 9 times.

Manning last season threw for over 3,400 yards, 19 touchdowns and 13 interceptions for a 61.6 completion % and an 80.4 QB rating. This all while OBJ, Marshall and Shepherd started a combined 17 games. So basically Eli Manning did that with a "league average" offensive line, Orleans Darkwa as a feature back and a rookie TE as his #1 target almost all year.

And you think ponder at his very best (1 season, didn't even have a proven track record) is "close" to what Eli is this season and then you have the nerve to tell me that I don't watch football?

Never talk to me about football again, dude. You're out to lunch.

Edit: Let's not forget Ponder had prime AP who needed 9 YARDS TO BREAK Eric Dickerson's single season rushing record. This is honestly clownshow material. Yeah Ponder was so good that Eli's QB rating was 30 points better than his even at his very best.

 

[TheRedViper]

Eli was very bad this year. Oline was also very bad. As an Eagles fan, I sincerely hope they draft Barkley at 2 and ignore their oline and qb issues.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Nah, I don't get my NFL news from WFAN.

I don't sit there and check metrics in lieu of watching my games like you do and that's exactly why you think Ponder at his best is close to what Manning is now and I never said that, you again assumed that.

If you truly think that, you don't watch football at all, which is painfully apparent. So quit the pretentious bull**** act.

Ponder's very best season saw him throw 2,900 yards and 18 touchdowns to 12 interceptions for for a 62.1 completion % and a 52.1 QB rating. He had Percy Harvin for 9 games and Kyle Rudolph went to the Pro Bowl that year scoring 9 times.

Manning last season threw for over 3,400 yards, 19 touchdowns and 13 interceptions for a 61.6 completion % and an 80.4 QB rating. This all while OBJ, Marshall and Shepherd started a combined 17 games. So basically Eli Manning did that with a "league average" offensive line, Orleans Darkwa as a feature back and a rookie TE as his #1 target almost all year.

And you think ponder at his very best (1 season, didn't even have a proven track record) is "close" to what Eli is this season and then you have the nerve to tell me that I don't watch football?

Never talk to me about football again, dude. You're out to lunch.

Let me get this straight. Are you actually saying that Manning was remotely good last year? Manning was absolute garbage. If that is somehow your idea of a good season (from anyone), I just have to laugh.

As I said above. Manning is closer to Ponder's best right now than he is to his old self. Ponder was always a trash player and the fact that Manning has been trending that direction (to anyone with functioning eyes, including the guys who develop the metrics) is incredibly troubling.

The fact that you're defending his play is downright comical, though. Try again.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Eli was very bad this year. Oline was also very bad. As an Eagles fan, I sincerely hope they draft Barkley at 2 and ignore their oline and qb issues.

The offensive line was not "very bad". The offensive line, compared to the rest of the league, was roughly average. Again, many of us have come to understand that this is a league-wide trend. It's present in the NCAA and it trickles up to the NFL. I'm all for adding some pieces (and they already did), but saying the line was "very bad" or "atrocious" is nonsense and something I'd expect from some radio show caller.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

He wasn't that bad, I'm not in the bandwagon that we should build around him but you have to consider he was throwing to pratice squad receivers and the oline was bad ( I disagree that they were league average.)

We've had this discussion how many times? This is taken into account both by the metrics folks and guys like myself who comment on his play. Do you see me faulting him for when King or Rudolph dropped passes? I'd fault him for overthrowing or underthrowing them (as he did repeatedly) or when his poor accuracy got players injured (which he did a few times).

I'm not sure why folks bring this up as a talking point when literally everyone on here who watches football can evaluate his play without him needing elite receivers to throw to.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Let me get this straight. Are you actually saying that Manning was remotely good last year? Manning was absolute garbage. If that is somehow your idea of a good season (from anyone), I just have to laugh.

As I said above. Manning is closer to Ponder's best right now than he is to his old self. Ponder was always a trash player and the fact that Manning has been trending that direction (to anyone with functioning eyes, including the guys who develop the metrics) is incredibly troubling.

The fact that you're defending his play is downright comical, though. Try again.

The fact that you think Ponder's 1 year was close to manning this year at all in any other aspect than TD's and INT's just shows how off you are.

It's funny how you trash posters on here for being people who do nothing but follow Metrics on don't actually watch the games, but that's CLEARLY what you're doing here. Even the basic stats tell you that you're wrong and you're trying some stupid pretentious Macho bravado bullshit with me.

What a joke.

 

[TheRedViper]

The offensive line was not "very bad". The offensive line, compared to the rest of the league, was roughly average. Again, many of us have come to understand that this is a league-wide trend. It's present in the NCAA and it trickles up to the NFL. I'm all for adding some pieces (and they already did), but saying the line was "very bad" or "atrocious" is nonsense and something I'd expect from some radio show caller.

Lol, okay. Eli had no time in the pocket and the running game was non-existent because their line was average.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

The fact that you think Ponder's 1 year was close to manning this year at all in any other aspect than TD's and INT's just shows how off you are.

It's funny how you trash posters on here for being people who do nothing but follow Metrics on don't actually watch the games, but that's CLEARLY what you're doing here. Even the basic stats tell you that you're wrong and you're trying some stupid pretentious Macho bravado bull**** with me.

What a joke.

Are you still just ranting without reading? When I said: "Current level Eli Manning is closer to when Christian Ponder was a starter than he is to prime Manning" or "Manning is closer to Ponder's best right now than he is to his old self", what did you think I meant by that? Take a few moments to comprehend what that means. Don't respond again until you actually understand it.

For the record, I don't view metrics as being overly helpful with analyzing offensive line play (especially PFF). Football Outsiders is a very good source for pressure data and such. The fact that they align with each other AND my extensive NFL/NCAA viewing, though, tells me something. I know that that doesn't mean much to someone throwing out hot takes ("JOHN JERRY DA WOWST OFFENSIVE LINEMAN EVAH, JOE!"), but considering this has been cited numerous times by folks throughout the industry, I think it'smore of a sign that you just don't pay attention.

I can guarantee that this will be talked about during the draft again this year.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Lol, okay. Eli had no time in the pocket and the running game was non-existent because their line was average.

The running game was actually decent once we shifted the offensive line around. Jones ended up being a very solid run blocker. The problem with the running game was more the garbage coaching than it was with the line itself. Why we weren't using Fluker was beyond most Giants fans.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Giants reportedly want to trade their former first-round pick Ereck Flowers

Giants trying to move Flowers. If they can grab a 4th or 5th, I see no reason not to do it. He's young enough that there are likely teams that think they can re-motivate him.

 

[Fvital92]

We've had this discussion how many times? This is taken into account both by the metrics folks and guys like myself who comment on his play. Do you see me faulting him for when King or Rudolph dropped passes? I'd fault him for overthrowing or underthrowing them (as he did repeatedly) or when his poor accuracy got players injured (which he did a few times).

I'm not sure why folks bring this up as a talking point when literally everyone on here who watches football can evaluate his play without him needing elite receivers to throw to.

Because you overblow his faults. He wasn't good, but even in this season he was light years better than Ponder's best season in this league.
He always had accuracy issues, in 2011 he missed plenty of targets too. He was never a carry over your team type of QB, but he can be league average with average receivers and o line.
The way you talk it seems he played worse than Kizer, it's simply not true.

 

[NYRPat21]

Eli was pretty terrible last year, despite the injuries on the offensive side of the ball. Hell, Eli directly got Beckham hurt in the preseason and against the Chargers with horrible throws.

 

[Kovalev27]

Flowers was literally the worst player in the nfl the last two years. Not just at his position I mean the worst player in the entire league.

How anyone expected Eli to perform with that guy watching his blindside is beyond me.

Is Eli almost done? Yes but he’s better than he’s shown playing next to that guy.

 

[effen]

Except he has a league average pass protecting line. So try again. All metrics support that, by the way. Not just PFF.

It's pathetic they were merely league average when practically every passing play was a 3 step drop. There was a reason for that.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Flowers was literally the worst player in the nfl the last two years. Not just at his position I mean the worst player in the entire league.

[citation needed]

 

[MysticLeviathan]

Giants fan here. I don’t mind if we draft Barkley. The guy is a generational talent and there isn’t a generational QB in this draft for us. Franchise QB? Possibly. But I think Barkley is that good and worth picking up. And hopefully that’ll allow our pass game to open up a bit more.

And if it’s that bad of a pick, we’ll have another shit season and a high draft pick to get a QB. I think it’s safe to say Barkley is the best player in the draft. I’m very interested to see how things go. For all we know, the Browns could pick Barkley, then we’d have all the QBs to choose from or could trade down.

Either way, I’m excited for Thursday.