2018 Assassination Thread

[Namba 17]

Usually, when a team spread out their offense, the lower lines look like they would dominate their counterparts in a head to head match-up. That doesn't appear to be the case here.

I wish I could answer to this, but this statement is just too vague. I don't see any #3 line in this ATD which wouldn't be dominated by any of my top 3 lines. The same for my 4th line. Which another 4th line has a combination of Heatley - Primeau caliber? Also, my 2nd line is better than most 2nd lines in this ATD.

Who will you put out in key defensive situations?

Howe - Primeau - Aurie
Lidstrom - Burrows/Mitchell
What is good here is that these players can score as well.

That only works if you actually create 3 quality scoring lines. I don't think you did that. Outside of Syd Howe, the wingers are just way too weak. Messier is on an island.

1. I have 4 scoring lines. At least Goulet and Heatley are great scorers.
2. Lines consist of 3 players, C included. Add Barry and Savard to "great" list.
3. I don't know why Mosienko gets that little love here. He is definitely not the best scoring threat, but he has pretty solid scoring finishes. Even in traditional line-building ATD he is a solid 2nd liner. He falls usually because he doesn't have anything outside of offense, but he doesn't need it in my 1st line.
4. How many 4th line players here have better offensive stats than Primeau and Kerr?
5. How many "glue" guys have better offensive stats than Aurie, Harris and Cleghorn?

Lines are still going head to head with other lines. Just about every top line in the draft is going to take it to any of your lines - that shouldn't be a surprise. The problem for you comes when your next unit can't return the favour, which it looks like it won't against a lot of teams.

See my #1 answer in this post

 

[Namba 17]

I'll go ahead and start my assassinations (I am trying to do 2 a day, and that way I can hit each team) with this club, since it's GM did do a lot last year, and did not receive many (any? I can't remember and don't feel like digging through threads).

Coaching and Leadership
I have Burns as an average to below average coach in a 24 team league. He won't hurt you, but I don't think he will really tip the scales in your favor. I like your on-ice leadership though. Messier and Lidstrom are a good duo.

1st Line
I feel for Messier here, because he is on an island. Mosienko really, really shouldn't be on a first line, and Harris isn't much better. I think the pieces fit, but the talent is just not there.

2nd Line
I like this line a lot better; Howe and Barry are a good start to a 2nd line (even if I think you reached a bit for Howe), but Aurie leaves me unimpressed here.

3rd Line
Again, I think I like this line more than your top line; Goulet is a dynamite option here, especially with Savard (who doesn't bring much outside of offense), and Cleghorn fits pretty well too.

4th Line
While I am a huge fan of Heatley, I hate this line. Very little defensive ability, very little puckwinning ability. That said, it is certainly an offensively potent line, but I can't help but think that this line will give up more than it gets.

1st Pairing
I like it a lot, it is certainly one of the better pairings out there. Not much to say, you did a good job.

2nd Pairing
Less thrilled about this one. It's not bad, but I dont see anything special here. Patrick is a solid number 3, but certainly no more than that, and I think the same can be said about Heller in the number 4 spot. Stylistically they work, though.

3rd Pairing
This is a weak pairing, IMO. Solid defensively, but the forwards wont get any help whatsoever from this pairing.

Spares
I like your forwards (especially McGee), but I think you would have been better served grabbing a more offensive D-spare, considering your bottom pairing.

Goaltending
Unspectacular, but that isn't a bad thing. Benedict's raw numbers look good, but he was playing behind some darn good Ottawa teams. Once he left those, his numbers look rather pedestrian. How much of that was due to age, though?

Special Teams
Your first PP is incredibly dangerous, while your second unit is solid. I think you could find someone better than Heller, though, I dont think he belongs on a ATD PP, especially in a 24 team league. Your PK units strike me as about average. I dont really like the defense in the top pairing (though I get why they are there, to balance out the minutes so Lidstrom and Lapointe aren't playing straight 1st unit), and I must confess that I dont know much about Primeau's PK abilities.

3 things I like
1) 1PP
2) 1st Pairing
3) 3rd Line

3 things I don't like
1) Messier line
2) 3rd Pairing
3) 4th Line

Suggestion- what if you moved Heatley to 1RW, Mosienko to a spare, and Berenson to 4LW? Mosienko would be a high powered spare, but I like those lines a bit more that way.

First of all, thank you very much for your assassination! This is the first assassination I received both last and this ATD!

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

1. I have 4 scoring lines. At least Goulet and Heatley are great scorers.
2. Lines consist of 3 players, C included. Add Barry and Savard to "great" list.

What is your definition of "great"? In a 24 team draft I wouldn't call any of those guys "great" scorers. How many "great" scorers are in this draft?

 

[Namba 17]

2nd Line
I like this line a lot better; Howe and Barry are a good start to a 2nd line (even if I think you reached a bit for Howe), but Aurie leaves me unimpressed here.

I took Aurie because:
1. Real life chemistry with Barry
2. I want tough player in every my line and Aurie was tough. From his bio:
A fighter throughout every game, Aurie always was ready to trade punches with the biggest players
was an intimidating physical presence
Much like (Dino) Ciccarelli, only Larry could fight. He would drop his stick at the drop of a hat
he was one of the toughest of the era as well
3. I want defensive specialist and PK option and Aurie is perfect fit. From his bio:
One of the greatest two-way forwards in the National League
Larry Aurie, the two way terrors
xxx was proudly calling the gutty forward, "Hockey's best two-way player
Aurie was also often double-shifted as the team's best defensive forward. He also had the tiresome duty of defusing their opponents' top line, killed penalties routinely
Aurie was a scorer who (ragged) the puck to kill penalties
Aurie, who had a knack for killing penalties
4. Very good offense for a guy, taken for his toughness, defense and PK:
2x Top 10 Goals (1, 8)
3x Top 10 Assists (3, 6, 8)
2x Top 10 Points (3, 4)
VsX Scores: 98, 96, 85, 81, 52, 46, 43, 42
Aurie was both a deft scorer and great puck-handler
Aside from being one of the team's offensive catalysts
According to Charles L. Coleman in his book "The Trail of the Stanley Cup, Volume 2", the Red Wings' decline in 1937-38 was largely due to Aurie ankle injury. Coleman wrote that Aurie had not recovered the form he had before breaking his ankle ... Without a healthy Aurie, the team collapsed
combining a deft scoring touch with excellent speed and puck handling skills

4th Line
While I am a huge fan of Heatley, I hate this line. Very little defensive ability, very little puckwinning ability. That said, it is certainly an offensively potent line, but I can't help but think that this line will give up more than it gets.

I think, you underrate Primeau severely.
From his bio:
While Jackson and Conacher are remembered for their scoring theatrics, it was Primeau who was the glue of the unit.
Primeau masterfully set up his two line mates time and time again, as well as acting as the line’s defensive conscience. He was as good a defensive center and penalty killer as there was in his day.
Conacher and Jackson never did feel very interested in getting in shape. They were busy driving their new cars and chasing women. Conacher and Jackson were never half as good as they were ought to be. They wanted Joe Primeau to do all the work
Defensively, he worked like a trojan for the Leafs...he was the workhorse of the line.
My 4th line built exactly like Primeau real-life line - two high scoring wingers and he as passer.
Also, I think you underrate Heatley's defense - in his bio he often prized for being defensively responsible, so Primeau's task will be even easier.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Coach: Toe Blake

Patrik Elias (A) --- Cyclone Taylor --- Charlie Conacher
Sweeney Schriner --- Norm Ullman --- Cecil Dillon
Ed Sandford --- Cooney Weiland --- Corey Perry
Tony Leswick--- Derek Sanderson --- Ron Stewart

Ivan Johnson --- Doug Harvey (A)
Ebbie Goodfellow (C) --- Cy Wentworth
Bobby Rowe --- Art Duncan (A)

Hugh Lehman
Hap Holmes

Extra: Jack Adams (LW), Art Chapman (C), Bruce MacGregor (RW/C), Viktor Kuzkin (D)

PP1: Schriner - Ullman - Conacher - Taylor - Harvey
PP2: Elias - Weiland - Perry - Goodfellow - Duncan
PK1: Sanderson- Dillon - Johnson - Harvey
PK2: Leswick - Stewart - Goodfellow - Wentworth
PK3: Weiland - Elias​

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Forwards

​

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Cyclone Taylor	15	5	0	20
Charlie Conacher	15	5	0	20
Patrik Elias	15	2	0	17
Norm Ullman	14	5	0	19
Cecil Dillon	14	0	4	18
Sweeny Schriner	14	5	0	19
Cooney Weiland	10	2	0	12
Corey Perry	10	2	0	12
Ed Sandford	7	0	0	7
Derek Sanderson	7	0	4	11
Ron Stewart	7	0	3	10
Tony Leswick	10	0	3	13
Totals	138	26	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

*Notes* Taylor is playing the point on my first power play unit. Leswick is playing on our dedicated checking line but will see heavy time as a shadow against top right wings.

​

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Defensemen

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Doug Harvey	18	5	4	27
Ivan Johnson	18	0	4	22
Ebbie Goodfellow	16	2	3	21
Cy Wentworth	16	0	3	19
Art Duncan	12	2	0	14
Bobby Rowe	12	0	0	12
Totals	92	9	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

​

What I really like:

1. Top Pairing/overall D
-Ching Johnson and Doug Harvey is going to be very tough to score on. Even the best scoring lines will go through fits against those 2. Goodfellow is a very strong #3 and Art Duncan is probably being used to little on the bottom pair.

2. Center Depth
-Taylor and Ullman are a strong 1-2 combination and I really like Weiland in the 3 hole. I think his offense is overrated some but he is a strong defensive player.

3. Coach
-Toe Blake. Enough said.

4. Power Play
-Especially the 1st unit. Should produce numerous scoring chances on the man advantage


What I'm so-so on:

1. Wentworth on the 2nd pairing
-I just don't see him as a top 100 defender and in a 24 team draft he's over his head slightly IMO. Goodfellow is a very strong 2nd pairing partner though so that minimizes my concerns a little bit.

2. Bottom 6 wingers
-Not surprising given your C and D depth. They certainly aren't bad but they standouts either in those roles.

3. First unit PK forwards
-Sanderson/Dillon seem like a meh top group in a draft this size. Not bad, but not great IMO.

4. Leadership
-Looking over your roster I don't see much to get excited on here.


What I don't like:

1. Goalie situation
-There was bound to be a position that was very weak when you have quality F/D. Lehman is arguably the worst goalie in the ATD this year. Holmes is a strong backup though.


Overall:

You have a very, very good team RB. Personally I'd have sacrificed somebody like Ching Johnson (when you already had Doug Harvey) for a big upgrade in goal but that's just me. The biggest question will be whether your skaters can overcome the lack of quality in net. History is certainly on your side. I do think you'll go quite far, and possibly even win this thing. Great job sir.

 

[Dreakmur]

I don't see any #3 line in this ATD which wouldn't be dominated by any of my top 3 lines.

When comparing lower lines, even strength scoring is what really matters in an offensive comparison. Denis Savard is a better scorer than most 3rd line players, but if you just look at their even strength scoring, it's a lot closer.

Which another 4th line has a combination of Heatley - Primeau caliber?

In terms of just pure scoring finishes, I would say not many. In terms of even-strength scoring, and overall play, there's quite a few 4th lines that can play with them. How effective is Tim Kerr at even strength?

Also, my 2nd line is better than most 2nd lines in this ATD.

Well, you 2nd line is easily your best line. I do agree that this one does stack up well vs. other 2nd lines, though it certainly won't dominate them.

Howe - Primeau - Aurie
Lidstrom - Burrows/Mitchell
What is good here is that these players can score as well.

Other than Lidstrom, that's a very weak group of defensive players to put out in a key situation.

1. I have 4 scoring lines.

Just because you do not have a checking line doesn't mean all your lines will be able to score.

At least Goulet and Heatley are great scorers.

As offensive weapons, both Heatley and Goulet are in the 25-30th best LW area. Syd Howe is your best offensive LW, and he's in the 20-25 range in terms of pure offense.

2. Lines consist of 3 players, C included. Add Barry and Savard to "great" list.

In terms of just offensive output, Messier and Barry are quite similar, and around the 25 range in terms of centers. Obviously, Messier brings a lot more to the table, but I just want to look at your scoring punch for now. Denis Savard is probably around the 40 range, which is basically a borderline 2nd liner.

4. How many 4th line players here have better offensive stats than Primeau and Kerr?

At even strength, I would say there are quite a few.

5. How many "glue" guys have better offensive stats than Aurie, Harris and Cleghorn?

I would say a lot.

Also, those are weak "glue guys". Smokey Harris certainly shouldn't even be called that (you could actually drop him right now and pick several better players). Cleghorn, I'm not sure how much toughness he brings outside his crazy last name.

 

[Namba 17]

What is your definition of "great"? In a 24 team draft I wouldn't call any of those guys "great" scorers. How many "great" scorers are in this draft?

Barry - 7 top 10 finishes in goals: 2, 3, 3, 8, 8, 9, 10
Goulet - 6 top 10 finishes in goals: 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 9
Heatley - 6 top 10 finishes in goals: 2, 5, 6, 8, 8, 9
Savard - 3, 3, 6, 7, 7, 12, 16 points finishes in Gretzky's era.
How can we call these guys? How many 2-4th liners are in this draft with better numbers? (they can compete even with a lot of 1st liners here).

 

[ResilientBeast]

What I really like:

1. Top Pairing/overall D
-Ching Johnson and Doug Harvey is going to be very tough to score on. Even the best scoring lines will go through fits against those 2. Goodfellow is a very strong #3 and Art Duncan is probably being used to little on the bottom pair.

2. Center Depth
-Taylor and Ullman are a strong 1-2 combination and I really like Weiland in the 3 hole. I think his offense is overrated some but he is a strong defensive player.

3. Coach
-Toe Blake. Enough said.

4. Power Play
-Especially the 1st unit. Should produce numerous scoring chances on the man advantage


What I'm so-so on:

1. Wentworth on the 2nd pairing
-I just don't see him as a top 100 defender and in a 24 team draft he's over his head slightly IMO. Goodfellow is a very strong 2nd pairing partner though so that minimizes my concerns a little bit.

2. Bottom 6 wingers
-Not surprising given your C and D depth. They certainly aren't bad but they standouts either in those roles.

3. First unit PK forwards
-Sanderson/Dillon seem like a meh top group in a draft this size. Not bad, but not great IMO.

4. Leadership
-Looking over your roster I don't see much to get excited on here.


What I don't like:

1. Goalie situation
-There was bound to be a position that was very weak when you have quality F/D. Lehman is arguably the worst goalie in the ATD this year. Holmes is a strong backup though.


Overall:

You have a very, very good team RB. Personally I'd have sacrificed somebody like Ching Johnson (when you already had Doug Harvey) for a big upgrade in goal but that's just me. The biggest question will be whether your skaters can overcome the lack of quality in net. History is certainly on your side. I do think you'll go quite far, and possibly even win this thing. Great job sir.

I'll come back with more in response but you're wrong about my first PK unit and Wentworth.

Dillon is anecdotally a very strong PKer based on clippings from old bios. And based on the new data overpass has parsed Sanderson is also a very strong Pker.

Sanderson played with Westfall on a famously great PK and Dillon is without a doubt a better player. I think this unit is among the best in the draft. They are also backed by two of the best defensive defensemen of all time. This unit should have no issues killing off penalties efficiently.

Wentworth, based on his voting record what really separates him from McCrimmon?

Wentworth: 4, 5, 5, 8
McCrimmon: 4, 6, 8, 7

They both played against a strong field of defenders comparable in quality and were primarily defensive guys. In ATD cannon McCrimmon is usually a 4D so Wentworth should be perfectly fine in the same role. Additionally he's playing with Goodfellow who might be the best second pairing defensemen in the draft.

Additionally the way my team is constructed I think minimizes and helps compensate for Lehman. Who I think if you use just the HOH list is underrated as TDMM has pointed out.

Harvey, Goodfellow, Wentworth is an excellent group of more defensive D to stack in front of him and help minimize dangerous scoring chances while helping generate some of their own.

 

[jarek]

I'll come back with more in response but you're wrong about my first PK unit and Wentworth.

Dillon is anecdotally a very strong PKer based on clippings from old bios. And based on the new data overpass has parsed Sanderson is also a very strong Pker.

Sanderson played with Westfall on a famously great PK and Dillon is without a doubt a better player. I think this unit is among the best in the draft. They are also backed by two of the best defensive defensemen of all time. This unit should have no issues killing off penalties efficiently.

Wentworth, based on his voting record what really separates him from McCrimmon?

Wentworth: 4, 5, 5, 8
McCrimmon: 4, 6, 8, 7

They both played against a strong field of defenders comparable in quality and were primarily defensive guys. In ATD cannon McCrimmon is usually a 4D so Wentworth should be perfectly fine in the same role. Additionally he's playing with Goodfellow who might be the best second pairing defensemen in the draft.

Do you have Dillon's penalty killing in a bio somewhere? I've never heard of this before.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Do you have Dillon's penalty killing in a bio somewhere? I've never heard of this before.

Read the bio I have linked from Rob Scuderi and EagleBelfour there are some quotes in there. And his skillset also screams PKer

 

[jarek]

Read the bio I have linked from Rob Scuderi and EagleBelfour there are some quotes in there. And his skillset also screams PKer

I'm one of those people that really prefer that a player have done PK'ing in the past to be called a viable PK'er.. especially on the 1st unit in a 24 team draft. His skillset is irrelevant to me as it pertains to his PK'ing ability.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm one of those people that really prefer that a player have done PK'ing in the past to be called a viable PK'er.. especially on the 1st unit in a 24 team draft. His skillset is irrelevant to me as it pertains to his PK'ing ability.

Then read the quotes, he pk'd

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'll come back with more in response but you're wrong about my first PK unit and Wentworth.

Dillon is anecdotally a very strong PKer based on clippings from old bios. And based on the new data overpass has parsed Sanderson is also a very strong Pker.

Sanderson played with Westfall on a famously great PK and Dillon is without a doubt a better player. I think this unit is among the best in the draft. They are also backed by two of the best defensive defensemen of all time. This unit should have no issues killing off penalties efficiently.

Wentworth, based on his voting record what really separates him from McCrimmon?

Wentworth: 4, 5, 5, 8
McCrimmon: 4, 6, 8, 7

They both played against a strong field of defenders comparable in quality and were primarily defensive guys. In ATD cannon McCrimmon is usually a 4D so Wentworth should be perfectly fine in the same role. Additionally he's playing with Goodfellow who might be the best second pairing defensemen in the draft.

Additionally the way my team is constructed I think minimizes and helps compensate for Lehman. Who I think if you use just the HOH list is underrated as TDMM has pointed out.

Harvey, Goodfellow, Wentworth is an excellent group of more defensive D to stack in front of him and help minimize dangerous scoring chances while helping generate some of their own.

I'd like to see specifics on Dillon as a PK'er. I know he had clippings stating he was strong defensively but don't recall many/if any talking about the PK. I simply think Sanderson/Dillon isn't that spectacular. Of course your D behind them are elite in their roles.

Lehman is a weak goalie here. I don't even care about the HoH list. We've gone over this numerous times. He wasn't even the best statistical goalie numerous years in the 3 team league out west (Hap Holmes was, who you smartly picked up). He faced next to no competition for AS votes at G, and the league used a 1 person voting system to pick AS teams. While he wasn't bad (he often wasn't great either), he routinely came up short in crunch time (it's naive to blame most everything on his teammates as well, so don't go there) I'm sorry but I just can't get behind the idea he's underrated when placed outside the top 20 goalies ever. It's quite easy to find 19-20 goalies who are either definitively better or arguably so. Again, that's just my opinion. TDMM (maybe others) are within their right to disagree.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'd like to see specifics on Dillon as a PK'er. I know he had clippings stating he was strong defensively but don't recall many/if any talking about the PK. I simply think Sanderson/Dillon isn't that spectacular. Of course your D behind them are elite in their roles.

Lehman is a weak goalie here. I don't even care about the HoH list. We've gone over this numerous times. He wasn't even the best statistical goalie numerous years in the 3 team league out west (Hap Holmes was, who you smartly picked up). He faced next to no competition for AS votes at G, and the league used a 1 person voting system to pick AS teams. While he wasn't bad (he often wasn't great either), he routinely came up short in crunch time (it's naive to blame most everything on his teammates as well, so don't go there) I'm sorry but I just can't get behind the idea he's underrated when placed outside the top 20 goalies ever. It's quite easy to find 19-20 goalies who are either definitively better or arguably so. Again, that's just my opinion. TDMM (maybe others) are within their right to disagree.

Given the era he played that request is pretty much impossible for Dillon. I'll provide more on Sanderson when I take a break from work.

I know your stance and respect it, but I'm coming to bat for my guy. Read the quotes from the series, I can give you one series the blame can fall on him, the rest of the time first hand accounts say he was spectacular and was playing better than the guy at the other end of the rink.

 

[Namba 17]

When comparing lower lines, even strength scoring is what really matters in an offensive comparison. Denis Savard is a better scorer than most 3rd line players, but if you just look at their even strength scoring, it's a lot closer.

It's very hard to argue with vague statements. If we look at a lot of top players ES scoring it will be closer... how is it relevant, though, when we talk about particular players...

In terms of just pure scoring finishes, I would say not many. In terms of even-strength scoring, and overall play, there's quite a few 4th lines that can play with them. How effective is Tim Kerr at even strength?.

I have numbers in my self-assassination post. 3 top-10 ES goals finishes: 2, 6, 7. I don't know how do you estimate players' abilities, if you don't know their numbers... "quite a few" - how many? how do you know it? What "overall play" are you talking about?

Just because you do not have a checking line doesn't mean all your lines will be able to score.

Sure. They will be able, because they have players, who can score.

As offensive weapons, both Heatley and Goulet are in the 25-30th best LW area.

Cmon... I'd really like to know how do you estimate players... it seems, that you don't even pay attention to their numbers - you just take your thoughts out of somewhere... but where from? What makes you believe, that Goulet is 25-30 offensive LW?

I understand, we all have our tastes and preferences, but they should be based on at least something...

 

[jarek]

Yeah I tried to go with the Lehman is underrated narrative a couple of drafts ago and nobody bought it or cared.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Yeah I tried to go with the Lehman is underrated narrative a couple of drafts ago and nobody bought it or cared.

did you build a bio that broke down every cup series?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Given the era he played that request is pretty much impossible for Dillon. I'll provide more on Sanderson when I take a break from work.

I know your stance and respect it, but I'm coming to bat for my guy. Read the quotes from the series, I can give you one series the blame can fall on him, the rest of the time first hand accounts say he was spectacular and was playing better than the guy at the other end of the rink.

Hey, If i can find 2-3 quotes about Nels Stewart killing penalties (and scoring!) I bet there would be something on Dillon

 

[ResilientBeast]

Hey, If i can find 2-3 quotes about Nels Stewart killing penalties (and scoring!) I bet there would be something on Dillon

Let's see what other vets think because I assumed Dillon was well vetted as a PKer

And I don't have tons of time to devote to reading newspapers right now

 

[ImporterExporter]

Let's see what other vets think because I assumed Dillon was well vetted as a PKer

And I don't have tons of time to devote to reading newspapers right now

No worries. I wouldn't ask that you provide a ton of evidence because he was noted as a plus defender in general. I'd just like to see something specific. That's all.

 

[jarek]

did you build a bio that broke down every cup series?

I didn't do that, but I did go through every single cup series he played in and tried to show with stats hat he played excellently and lost mainly because his teams couldn't score. Nobody cared.

---

Re. Dillon: There are only a few quotes in the bio talking about his PK'ing, and the degree of his effectiveness is described vaguely at best.

The articles those quotes came from are from 1931, 1933, 1935 and 1936. The best of the bunch are the following:

The Leader-Post: 11-2-1935 said:
Murdoch and Dillon, a pair of the best back-checkers in the league, will hook up with Butch Keeling on the third line in addition to emergency duty when the team is short-handed through penalties.

Calgary Daily Herald: 10-28-1936 said:

Our outstanding back-checking line, judging from their work here, probably will be the "kid line." But when we are playing short-handed, Murray Murdoch and Dillon will be used as back-checkers.​

​

Meriden Record: 11-2-1936 said:
As usual, Murdoch and Dillon, both superb defensive players, will carry the burden when penalties leave the team short-handed.

I think there's enough here for him to be seen as a passable 2nd unit guy but he might be the worst 1st unit PK'er in the draft without looking.

 

[Dreakmur]

Cmon... I'd really like to know how do you estimate players... it seems, that you don't even pay attention to their numbers - you just take your thoughts out of somewhere... but where from? What makes you believe, that Goulet is 25-30 offensive LW?

I understand, we all have our tastes and preferences, but they should be based on at least something...

Goulet has only 4 top-10s in points, and only 1 top-5. Where you're looking at all the left wingers who ever played, why is it hard to imagine I could find 25 guys with better accomplishments than that? Two of those 25 are Howe and Heatley if that make you feel better.

I think that's actually where you're getting mixed up. You look at a guy and say "wow, he has 3 top-10s" and rather than actually compare him to the rest of the draft, you just think he's great.

 

[ResilientBeast]

From Overpass's spreadsheet

Sanderson has a SH% of 49% for a TmSh+ of 0.8 which is decently above average

 

[jarek]

From Overpass's spreadsheet

Sanderson has a SH% of 49% for a TmSh+ of 0.8 which is decently above average

Yeah, Sanderson is a really nice PK'er here.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Barry - 7 top 10 finishes in goals: 2, 3, 3, 8, 8, 9, 10
Goulet - 6 top 10 finishes in goals: 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 9
Heatley - 6 top 10 finishes in goals: 2, 5, 6, 8, 8, 9
Savard - 3, 3, 6, 7, 7, 12, 16 points finishes in Gretzky's era.
How can we call these guys? How many 2-4th liners are in this draft with better numbers? (they can compete even with a lot of 1st liners here).

See this is why I asked what your definition of "great" was. If we look at vs.X (which is a better metric to compare offensive ability across eras than point finishes), Barry is your best offensive player, and he has the 40th highest score in the draft. Savard is 63rd, Heatley 93rd, and Goulet is outside the top 100. Disclaimer, vs.X does not take playoffs into account and overly punishes players who miss games. But just to illustrate my point, using that metric, you're saying there's over 100 "great" scorers in the draft. Which is fine if that's how you want to define it, but I don't think it tells us much.