I understand playing very conservative against better teams considering how weak this year's roster was, but with this tactic they got destroyed by France and Slovenia was dominating long stretches. Those rosters were not better than Finland's...
WC: 2017 Team Finland Pt. 2
- Thread starter garnetpalmetto
- Start date
QnebO
Wheel, snipe, celly
- Feb 11, 2010
- 9,763
- 644
We started to have chance in 3rd against swedes and russia, when we stopped trapping. It was coaching issue.
With defensive trap, we had zero chance. Opponent had total puck controll. Zero, zero times out of 100 we would win those stacked teams with 60 minutes of defence with a bad D squad. We were counting on luck and goalie. The finnish 20th best goalue Goalie keeps heroic 0 and we get an eventual lucky goal. Basically chances are zero when opponent has so much skill, it is given all the time and control of game and our D gets oumatched, it just doesnt even fairly compare to opponent forwards outside honka and kukkonen.
Had we played offensivelu, we couldve won. We had good enough players to win with offensive game.
Couple of old facts:
When we have the puck, opponent doesn't have the puck.
Zero+zero = zero
Sotaa ei voita kuin sotimalla, peliä kuin pelaamalla
With defensive trap, we had zero chance. Opponent had total puck controll. Zero, zero times out of 100 we would win those stacked teams with 60 minutes of defence with a bad D squad. We were counting on luck and goalie. The finnish 20th best goalue Goalie keeps heroic 0 and we get an eventual lucky goal. Basically chances are zero when opponent has so much skill, it is given all the time and control of game and our D gets oumatched, it just doesnt even fairly compare to opponent forwards outside honka and kukkonen.
Had we played offensivelu, we couldve won. We had good enough players to win with offensive game.
Couple of old facts:
When we have the puck, opponent doesn't have the puck.
Zero+zero = zero
Sotaa ei voita kuin sotimalla, peliä kuin pelaamalla
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Artorius Horus T
sincerety
These games could of ended in horrific manner,we were uber
lucky to finish 4th.
How can one finish 4th with that kind
of play is beyond me,how can one finish 4th with
these team stats:
5 W 5 L (26-31 -5)
tournament scoring efficency: 10th
tournament pp: 8th
tournament pk: 12th
we were 6th in goals for, 14th in goals against
we were 9th in goals for per game avg,
12th in goals against per game avg
we were number 1 in penalties
lucky to finish 4th.
How can one finish 4th with that kind
of play is beyond me,how can one finish 4th with
these team stats:
5 W 5 L (26-31 -5)
tournament scoring efficency: 10th
tournament pp: 8th
tournament pk: 12th
we were 6th in goals for, 14th in goals against
we were 9th in goals for per game avg,
12th in goals against per game avg
we were number 1 in penalties
QnebO
Wheel, snipe, celly
- Feb 11, 2010
- 9,763
- 644
Yup, I'm used to losing with still dominating our big share the puck controll time, probably outshooting the opponent, and just running into defensive system and good tender. Now we got truly outplayed, whih rarely even happens so clearly as this time.
ChicagoBullsFan
Registered User
ChicagoBullsFan
Registered User
http://yle.fi/urheilu/3-9625616
Blaa blaa blaa blaa.
Mister Nummela and Finnish hockey association stop talking ******** and do something.
Game's evolution is huge and hockey as game comes faster all the time but what Finland does.
Finland plays slow passive and poor hockey a team where multiplayer best before date has expired 3-5 yrs ago.
If Finnish hockey association won't do necessary changes to fix those problems what Finnish hockey has right now.
It will mean that in the 2-4 yrs Finland will play the same positions as Czech Republic, Switzerland, Germany, Slovakia,Belarus,Norway, France and Denmark.
Finland has already badly behind of Canada,USA, Russia and Sweden to all what associated with modern international hockey.
''Meidän peli'' starts to go old so as President Koivisto said once something should be done ( tarttis tehdä jotain).
Blaa blaa blaa blaa.
Mister Nummela and Finnish hockey association stop talking ******** and do something.
Game's evolution is huge and hockey as game comes faster all the time but what Finland does.
Finland plays slow passive and poor hockey a team where multiplayer best before date has expired 3-5 yrs ago.
If Finnish hockey association won't do necessary changes to fix those problems what Finnish hockey has right now.
It will mean that in the 2-4 yrs Finland will play the same positions as Czech Republic, Switzerland, Germany, Slovakia,Belarus,Norway, France and Denmark.
Finland has already badly behind of Canada,USA, Russia and Sweden to all what associated with modern international hockey.
''Meidän peli'' starts to go old so as President Koivisto said once something should be done ( tarttis tehdä jotain).
ChicagoBullsFan
Registered User
http://kiekkoareena.fi/kolumnit/kolumni-mita-huikea-mm-finaali-opetti-pelin-evoluutiosta
http://kiekkoareena.fi/jutut/miksi-gronborg-onnistui-mutta-marjamaki-ei
http://kiekkoareena.fi/kolumnit/taitovajetta-on-vaikea-paikata-asenteella
http://www.iltalehti.fi/mmjaakiekko-2017/201705212200153078_jq.shtml
Some good and truthful articles to read.
http://kiekkoareena.fi/jutut/miksi-gronborg-onnistui-mutta-marjamaki-ei
http://kiekkoareena.fi/kolumnit/taitovajetta-on-vaikea-paikata-asenteella
http://www.iltalehti.fi/mmjaakiekko-2017/201705212200153078_jq.shtml
Some good and truthful articles to read.
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Well, Finnish players can't pass, can't receive passes, can't skate and especially can't shoot. It's a pretty sad state of affairs when we get past the most promising players.
Especially the lack of skating ability I will just blame on Liiga, because it's such a slow-paced league with such slow systems that you don't really accomplish anything but offsides with fast skating over there. In my opinion, a total culture change will be required for team Finland and the systems used need to favor speed and individual skill and the attitude that "with our system we can win and it doesn't matter how good our players actually are" is a very cancerous way of thinking.
But it's tough when the leadership has a defeatist attitude from the get go, with statements like "Well, Finland is a small country and we can't really do any better. Making it to quarter finals can be considered a success" when Sweden isn't that much bigger and produces far better talent overall.
stonec
Registered User
- Nov 21, 2011
- 377
- 324
Three years ago Finland almost fell out of the playoff stage. It was even closer than this year, as it was not in Finland's hands anymore, but Swiss won over Latvia, which secured the playoff spot. In the playoff we had massive goaltending from Rinne, which was pretty much the only reason we beat Canada in the quarters. The hockey we played for most of the 2014 tournament was not much if any better than now, people just forget it because the tournament ended well.
"Meidän peli" was created to compensate for the material deficit that Finland has to the big countries and to give us a better chance to win. It doesn't equal to slow hockey, but the slow hockey is part of it, when necessary. It was probably the only hockey with which this team could beat USA.
Perhaps we should instead ask why we can't produce for example defencemen like Sweden that can move the puck fast. Maybe the material is so bad that the slow variant of "meidän peli" is the best strategy currently, until we get more skilled players, especially defencemen.
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Seems like this guy is overreacting. Most of the top Finnish players in Europe are still products of the era where we only developed 4th line grinders. We had a bad team that wasn't able to play beyond its level.
This guy is saying that high number of draft picks and good results in juniors haven't panned out for the men's team. Well NO ****! All the good results are from 3-4 years, they're obviously still developing.
I think this was mostly a case of bad player turnout. Plus, we don't really have that many top-level guys playing in the KHL anymore. We used to have Kontiola, Immonen, Komarov, Lehterä, Pesonen, + maybe some others that were consistent producers for the NT. We don't have these kind of guys in Europe any more (save for Kontiola who didn't play).
Loffer
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2011
- 3,929
- 417
This sums it up pretty neatly. Just look at Sweden and no more excuses. Yeah, the young guns are coming - so, change the system and culture also; it has been changed, yeah. Not enough. Change it at every level. - FORWARD! said Juti in a blast, I mean, mummo in snow. Eteenpain, bhoys, mennaan eteenpain! Turha naita on (vain) miettia. FORWARD!
ChicagoBullsFan
Registered User
Antti Pennanen isn't some random nobody who talks *********.
He's long time hockey coach who's worked with junior players.
So he's very capable coach to talk junior and player development.
But if Finnish hockey association won't listen him and his colleagues then so be it.
Even stupid baboon knows that Finland should change men's national teams player generation so soon as possible and not in the future.
I must say, I'm still happy that the people commenting on this board have no say on which direction Finnish hockey should go.
Loffer
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2011
- 3,929
- 417
Why is that, mr. FiLe. You write here as anonym, I mean pseudonym. You won't get shut out of those prestigious positions in the Federation saying out loud here what you really think nor will you get quid pro quo through pumping their fat tired tires.Or am I wrong? Maybe you are after all a spokesman of the policies of the "Fed". - Chill, man.
We are right and you should know it. Join us man. Or rather be one of us: Why join navy when you can be a pirate; and the navy in question sucks big time?!
Or do you really mean you are actually "happy" for the fact our obese mr. Iron Chancellor still pulls the strings behind the scenes with his hot dog fingers in some of those million budget saunas sweating like a fat porco he resembles so uncannily?
Gimme a ****ing break, man! You are cracking me up, hahah!
BB88
Registered User
- Jan 19, 2015
- 40,921
- 20,556
You mean how changing the style to the style that's played this day would be so bad?
Yes we must keep this slow and boring style that gets the team nowhere, what fun.
We can change the style when we have the necessary player material to support the style change. This time we didn't, but I hope we do in the future.
Let it be said that I don't disagree that there isn't room - not to mention need - for improvement. What I do disagree with is most of the methods proposed... what little there's been.
For example, what Antti Pennanen said on Yle about the gap between our top talent and the next tier of players *is* a concern, and something needs to be done about that. But I don't see *you* guys bringing up any concrete suggestions for improvements, besides the same old "fire Marjamäki" song. Which would, by the way, do exactly nothing to amend the issue Pennanen is talking about.
Loffer
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2011
- 3,929
- 417
WTF man, the bolded is just one 'ingenious' triple if not quadruple negation - go figure what it says hahah!!!. I wonder if it is a telling lapse as it might very well be since it tells me something like Freud does about tangled complexities and inner conflicts concerning the issue.
Which leads to the main point: You say: We can change the style when we have the necessary player material to support the style change. This time we didn't, but I hope we do in the future.
This is just your mantra, a dogma you "'our game" loyalists keep repeating. Why to recycle this self-fulfilling prophecy of defeatism and status quo (of dull nothingness)?!? -- There are forces of indoctrination of the "Our Game" dogmas at play here and the related cognitive dissonance you reduce by keeping saying those controversial as if truisms which deny the possibility of the real change in the way things are processed, thought and done within the high and also lower echelons of Finnish hockey.
For those baffled by my eloquence: That means I don't think "this is fine".
Your interpretation of that sentence was well, nonsense, but I can put it in single syllables as well:
If we want to be better at hockey, we need to have more players who play on higher level than we do now.
It's a major simplification, but still, that's pretty much the gist of it. Sadly it's not something that can be fixed quick and easy. Firing the NT's head coach sure as heck won't help one bit. Or do you guys seriously think that will somehow magically improve the quality of Liiga? Because that's where the problem lies.
Now, while narrowing the gap Pennanen mentioned is going to take a ton of work, luckily, the amount of the top talent is on the rise - so at least part the issue of having more quality players available for the NT will be amended by time alone. Sadly, we're not there yet.
To emphasize that point, I'd like to state something that will hopefully put some perspective on the griping about the lack of NHLers...
This season, there were 40 Finnish players who got at least one game in the NHL. Of those players, seven were in this team. That's 17,5 percent of them.
This season, there were 73 Swedish players who got at least one game in the NHL. Of those players, 18 were in the Swedish team. That's 24,7 percent of them.
Not so big of a difference, innit?
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Loffer
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2011
- 3,929
- 417
We should fire all those slow trap game devotees and believers in Luga and in the Feds. That would be a good start. "We" - well, to put it figuratively. We should change the very way we approach this question. The inside the box thinking leads not out of its own dead-ends, at least not until it has exhausted all the excuses hundreds of times.
We should get rid of the thinking "if we want to be better at hockey we must first be better at hockey and we ain't, so let's try to plug, clog and shut the holes as well as we can and hang on until the end and hope winning by a fluke."
Et cetera...
The thing I'm trying to say here is, it's not simply a coaching issue - it's as much a player issue. You can't make the game faster and more offensively sound if you've got no players capable of playing such game. So your proposal to replace every coach wouldn't be enough. You'd have to replace most of the current players too. The quality of play in Liiga is directly dependent on the quality of players entering it. Because better players the coaches have, more advanced tactics they can implement. So all you can do is hope that the players get gradually more and more able to do it as new ones come in and old ones retire.
Like everything, it all stems from the grassroots junior work. And down in the trenches, it actually ceases to be a coaching issue altogether. We know exactly what it takes to make a world-class hockey player. We know it all, every move we have to make to turn *any* pre-school age kid who puts on his first skates into a first-round prospect over the next ten years.
Sadly, that means said kid would have to devote his entire life to the game from that point onwards. In fact, even making a solid Liiga level player means kissing about 90% of your other life's plans goodbye for those next ten years. And some are willing to do it - a small fraction of them. But since we don't have a Soviet style system, we can do nothing to force the rest to follow their example.
But those that are willing to do it, they'll get there - guaranteed. If they don't get there, it's not because they received inept coaching. It's because they simply lost the taste for it. Because of school, girls, just life in general... and what else.
We're a country of five million. Some days, I consider it a miracle as it is that we have even as much kids as we do now to have the devotion and the willingness to follow the guidance provided. To get even more of those, to speed up the process further, well, I don't see many solutions save for making this a fully-blown political issue. We'd need new laws that make hockey coaches dictators not just on the ice, but off the ice as well.
Even though I am quite disappointed by the tactics and playstyle during this WHC, I agree with FiLe regarding the link between our slow play and players participating.
The Pihlstrom, Aaltonen, Jaakola, Kemppainen, etc. squad was enough vs C Canadian or Swedish teams. This year, the key hockey countries brought their best and we really suffered as a consequence.
However I do blame the staff for not being capable of attracting free players: Risto, Komarov, another NHL goalie
Loffer
Registered User
- Sep 22, 2011
- 3,929
- 417
As much as I sympathize with the main thrust and spirit of your post and appreciate the grass root level work at this sector of social life, as much as on almost any, and see the issues and limitations with which junior coaches work on everyday level - it fails to answer to some crucial question regarding this controversy. Like A) Why do then Swedes enjoy much better hockey, still, in average than we poor Finns. So: Are we indeed poor? You said everything is fine as regards circumstances, resources and even know-how. So, no, we are not poor in resources nor in competence in junior hockey. So, why? The amount of registered junior players are roughly equal in both countries, ain't it? So, why? - Okay, is the answer after all connected integrally to the respective hockey cultures, systems, know-how, in one way or another? We are trailing behind in the junior program development and/or its implementation decade or more, is that it? If so, it is a coaching and developing issue in the end and as such it might and does still need further fundamental changes at many levels. Or is the answer still something else? What then? I am baffled?
Secondly: B) The state of the affairs in junior hockey in Finland is a different question still from the state of the affairs in the top echelons of Finnish hockey, though they have this important interactive link between them. My above criticism was largely addressed towards the self-indulgent, "fat", "convenience seeking", conservative governing body of Finnish hockey, The Federation and its top brass and the relevant parts of that central organization, not club level/grass root work. There as in a (pompous) central organizations anywhere people want to keep their privileges, jobs, positions and resistance to change and reluctance for getting out of one's comfort zone or being challenged in competence issues are things to be reckoned with, things of relevance as regards the correct analysis and adequate corrective measures of the core problem of (here) the current so-so state of Finnish hockey as it comes across and is displayed in its main "shop window", the men's national team, the Lions, Team Finland. Now, you think these guys can or want to do the needed neutral, independent, thorough minute analysis of the needed changes in the many interrelated issues and topics related to the performance level of TF, now and in the future - if and when those changes and that analysis challenge (some of) them and their competences and/or positions probably very profoundly?? Furthermore, have you ever even thought seriously what, how big, powerful delimiting etc. is the negative side and negative, aggravating and consuming impact of such an authoritative leader figure of the organization as the "fat man" was and still most likely is in the shadows, behind the scenes? How does or how can that, such a questionable fact affect, debilitate and paralyze the optimal, effective and appropriate functioning of an expertise based organization and its ideally "independent", "competent" and "appropriate" decision-making - with athletic values and athletic success as the first and foremost priority going forward and trying to change, ideally?? What kind of biased organization culture is predominating and corrupting the optimal operating of the Federation? Who calls the shots? What is the degree and importance of informal alliances, networks and loyalities in its everyday action? Etc...
And now, finally, still one brief note: C) Which came first, the egg or the chicken? And did the fat chicken lay this ****ing egg, after all?
The reason Swedes enjoy better player quality is because of two things. Firstly - they have double the population we do. Even if the amount of registered players is roughly the same, in Sweden that number is still drawn from a talent pool that is double Finland's size. A simple analogue - if you have a deck of cards, and you can freely pick thirty cards from it, you of course first pick all the aces and courts, but you have to pick a fair amount of regular numbered cards as well. But if you have two decks and you can still pick the same thirty cards, you can mostly pick nothing but aces and courts.
Secondly - and more importantly - they didn't waste nearly two generations of players by making horribly wrong decisions with junior coaching. Said generations, which, at the moment, still make up about 80 per cent of the active, professional Finnish hockey players.
And this is really all you need to concern yourselves with in regards to "fixing" Finnish hockey. In fact, even being all that concerned isn't necessary, since Finnish hockey has already been fixed. We've made the necessary adjustments to the junior mill, and it is already producing us higher quality players, that will not only bolster our ranks of NHLers, but also improve the general quality of Liiga, which will mean better Finnish players all over and every league that's interested in hiring them. But it will still take a few years before they form a majority over the "lost" generations - the very first of the corrected classes are only now entering their prime, so there's not nearly enough of them yet to fully take over. What they have done already is bring us some nice success on U18 and U20 levels. I'm sure you've noticed. So, no, we're not poor in the slightest. The effect just isn't fully evident yet on adult level, to the chagrin of all the hasty-pants.
So all the talk about making some grand strategies at the top of the pyramid and whatever is at this stage mostly nothing but empty rhetoric. We don't really have issues with ranks to draw from, and we don't have issues with things being badly orchestrated. We simply have a large bunch of mostly mediocre players, and we need to wait until they retire and are replaced with those that come from far superior junior development programs.
Once we have enough players with higher skill levels and hockey IQ, better physicality, etcetera etcetera, coaches can also start implementing more advanced strategies that will improve the quality of Finnish club team hockey, and by extension, provide better players for the NT to utilize. And then NT can, in turn, also utilize more variable game plans over our typical brand of underdog hockey.
To put this as simply as I can, better players -> better everything. And that's all there really is. But before we get better everything, we have to wait a while longer, weather out the storm. There are really no magic tricks to speed the process, no grand strategies to implement. Neither on the grassroots level nor in the cabinets.
Secondly - and more importantly - they didn't waste nearly two generations of players by making horribly wrong decisions with junior coaching. Said generations, which, at the moment, still make up about 80 per cent of the active, professional Finnish hockey players.
And this is really all you need to concern yourselves with in regards to "fixing" Finnish hockey. In fact, even being all that concerned isn't necessary, since Finnish hockey has already been fixed. We've made the necessary adjustments to the junior mill, and it is already producing us higher quality players, that will not only bolster our ranks of NHLers, but also improve the general quality of Liiga, which will mean better Finnish players all over and every league that's interested in hiring them. But it will still take a few years before they form a majority over the "lost" generations - the very first of the corrected classes are only now entering their prime, so there's not nearly enough of them yet to fully take over. What they have done already is bring us some nice success on U18 and U20 levels. I'm sure you've noticed. So, no, we're not poor in the slightest. The effect just isn't fully evident yet on adult level, to the chagrin of all the hasty-pants.
So all the talk about making some grand strategies at the top of the pyramid and whatever is at this stage mostly nothing but empty rhetoric. We don't really have issues with ranks to draw from, and we don't have issues with things being badly orchestrated. We simply have a large bunch of mostly mediocre players, and we need to wait until they retire and are replaced with those that come from far superior junior development programs.
Once we have enough players with higher skill levels and hockey IQ, better physicality, etcetera etcetera, coaches can also start implementing more advanced strategies that will improve the quality of Finnish club team hockey, and by extension, provide better players for the NT to utilize. And then NT can, in turn, also utilize more variable game plans over our typical brand of underdog hockey.
To put this as simply as I can, better players -> better everything. And that's all there really is. But before we get better everything, we have to wait a while longer, weather out the storm. There are really no magic tricks to speed the process, no grand strategies to implement. Neither on the grassroots level nor in the cabinets.
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No it didn't. We barely made it to playoffs. There's no way this was the best effort this team could have done. We should have still beat the "small" countries easier.
Marjamäki should be fired. Nothing changed with that one win. His teams has looked garbage for how long now? He's done.
We are producing top quality young players, probably enough to keep us competitive for a generation, what I'm concerned about is are we producing enough "good enough" players?
I heard that 50% of WJC-2016 winners are retired, they didn't get contracts and moved on in life. I fail to see how half of them could not have been good enough to become basic Liiga-jyrä.
Which means one of two things, Liiga teams too conservative in taking youth onto middle line roles - or there being a coaching issue of some sort as those players are unable to step up. I think the latter.
25% retiring I could see happening, half no way.
I heard that 50% of WJC-2016 winners are retired, they didn't get contracts and moved on in life. I fail to see how half of them could not have been good enough to become basic Liiga-jyrä.
Which means one of two things, Liiga teams too conservative in taking youth onto middle line roles - or there being a coaching issue of some sort as those players are unable to step up. I think the latter.
25% retiring I could see happening, half no way.
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