2017 Offseason Thread 5.0 Summer Doldrums

[Peter James Bond II]

Agree,way overpayment....

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexlavender

That's an incredible over payment for someone we have to now resign.

deaderhead28
Agree,way overpayment....


BAD starting point for continuation thread as post #1 for 5.0.

WHOM is this player?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexlavender

That's an incredible over payment for someone we have to now resign.

deaderhead28
Agree,way overpayment....


BAD starting point for continuation thread as post #1 for 5.0.

WHOM is this player?

They were talking about Tatar. The Kings wouldn't have been able to afford him anyhow. But they sure could use another forward who could do this...



He does some bizarre things that we're not used to seeing, like taking shots from the slot area.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Tatar is soft as charmin, and never would've worked out with either coaches. I could totally see him in Sutters doghouse on a regular basis, then eventually traded by Lombardi.

He played this season with a shoulder injury that he needed to have surgery on, and he still led his team with 25 goals.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/19139992/tomas-tatar-detroit-red-wings-shoulder-surgery

If he was such a "creampuff" as you suggest, he wouldn't have bothered to play in all 82 games this season. He's only missed one game over the past three seasons and has netted 25, 21 and 29 goals in each of the last three seasons, and he netted 19 goals in his first full season.

The Kings would be lucky to have a player like him.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

He played this season with a shoulder injury that he needed to have surgery on, and he still led his team with 25 goals.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/19139992/tomas-tatar-detroit-red-wings-shoulder-surgery

If he was such a "creampuff" as you suggest, he wouldn't have bothered to play in all 82 games this season. He's only missed one game over the past three seasons and has netted 25, 21 and 29 goals in each of the last three seasons, and he netted 19 goals in his first full season.

The Kings would be lucky to have a player like him.

Yeah, if only we could have drafted a successful goal-scoring winger in the second round....

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Their lack of any semblance of a transition game and failure to attack the middle of the ice and insistence of sticking along the boards and "slowing" down the pace of the game all are indicative of them being a slow team. As a unit, they performed at a pace far slower than that of their opponents.

This team was methodical in every way possible, slow to react, slow in their decision making with the puck, slow in transition, etc. This wasn't how they played in the post season in 2012 and 2014, but the past two seasons this team has not shown any purpose.

I don't know what approach Stevens will take that will get them to change, and I don't know if a coaching change is going to be enough to improve in that area, but given the lack of options, it's the only decision to be made at this point.

There's a reason why the Kings are viewed as a boring team, and they earned that reputation with their crappy performance over the past three seasons. If Kopitar decides to mentally check out again in the first half of the season, then I guess we should expect more of the same.

You just reiterated what johnjm said, though, that the Kings looked fast in 2012 and 2014 and looked slow the rest because of systematic concerns.

I'm not going to mistake this roster for a bunch of burners, but they showed they can play fast enough to hang with the NHL's best. Team speed isn't an issue in and of itself unless the system asks for it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yeah, if only we could have drafted a successful goal-scoring winger in the second round....

Doesn't hurt to have it happen more often than every seven years. Imagine hitting on Tatar and Toffoli in consecutive years. Tatar is now the player we hope Gaborik still was.

You just reiterated what johnjm said, though, that the Kings looked fast in 2012 and 2014 and looked slow the rest because of systematic concerns.

I'm not going to mistake this roster for a bunch of burners, but they showed they can play fast enough to hang with the NHL's best. Team speed isn't an issue in and of itself unless the system asks for it.

The issue is that we are hearkening back to how they played in the past, which is over three years ago. They're getting outworked to the puck by younger, faster, hungrier teams who now have something to prove. The Kings used to resemble that squad in 2012, then they had something to prove again in 2014 after Chicago knocked them out in the Conference Finals.

San Jose skated circles around them in 2015 and quickly dissipated a sluggish Kings team that couldn't keep up, and then we saw the Penguins do the same thing to the Sharks in the Finals. I'm not suggesting you need fast players in today's game to be successful, but you have to be able to think quick, make quick decisions and execute plays quickly in order to be successful, which the Kings once were able to do in the past.

I don't know if the team as it is now is capable of becoming that team again. It might take some time to get there again.

All this talk about speed also reminded me of Jason Allison and how effective he was as a center, and it certainly wasn't due to his speed, but his ability to find wingers speeding down a lane. Kopitar might need something similar in having wingers who can push back defenders with their speed. Defenders didn't have to worry much about fending off Kopitar last season though as he voluntarily looked to stick around the boards to complete a pass.

How do you expect to see them execute plays fast and in transition when they constantly relied on keeping the puck to the outside and along the boards, then to work the puck up high for point shots? Becoming a perimeter team is why this team was so dreadful to watch and awfully boring. Talk about Corsi and Fenwick and puck possession all you want, but what good is it if it's not leading to results? As the old saying goes, it's about quality, not quantity.

 

[johnjm22]

The Kings looked absolutely abysmal and slow at points during the regular season in 11/12 and 13/14. Both years they won the cup. I think people often forget how low things got during those seasons before they ultimately turned it around.

I'm not saying I think they're going to turn it around it again, but it's possible. I've seen it with my own eyes. Granted, this roster has many more question marks than in the aforementioned seasons.

I give Sutter a ton of credit for the Kings' playoff success. I think he's one of the best playoff coaches I've ever seen, but I think his style comes with a relatively short expiration date. Very curious to see how the team performs now, I think it will say a lot about where this franchise is.

 

[damacles1156]

The puck moves faster than players at all times if the Players (play fast).

One area that will make your team look really slow (losing 50/50 puck battles).

The Kings over the last two seasons, have lost a lot of 50/50 puck battles.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

They were talking about Tatar. The Kings wouldn't have been able to afford him anyhow. But they sure could use another forward who could do this...

Thanks! I was wishing back in 2009 when they took Clifford, I was hoping for Tatar.

 

[Docgonzo]

I think the Kings always looked slow in previous years because they never pushed the play. Many of times we'd see the Dman skate up with the puck only to curl back and regroup, but by that time the opposition has clogged up the neutral zone making it impossible for forwards to gain speed with the puck.

Through the past 6 years or so we've always seen Chicago and San Jose burn us, but not always score, with that D stretch pass. But I've only ever seen the Kings attempt it a couple of times. It was always more the regroup/dump and chase method.

 

[KingsFan7824]

88-89 Kings:
Gretzky - 54, 114, 168
Nicholls - 70, 80, 150
Robitaille - 46, 52, 98
Duchesne - 25, 50, 75
Tonelli - 31, 33, 64
Taylor - 26, 37, 63
Krushelnyski - 26, 36, 62
Kasper - 19, 31, 50

14-15 and 15-16 combined:
Carter - 56, 72, 128
Kopitar - 37, 89, 126
Doughty - 26, 69, 95
Toffoli - 47, 45, 92
Pearson - 39, 41, 80
Martinez - 19, 51, 70
Cammalleri - 24, 45, 69
Muzzin - 17, 51, 68
Brown - 25, 39, 64

A Wednesday in late July, so I thought it was interesting how close those numbers are, give or take, certainly not an exact scientific comparison, and how it takes guys basically 2 seasons today to put up similar production players had 30-ish years ago.

 

[johnjm22]

I don't think we'll ever get back to that level of scoring. Even with wider nets.

There was nine 100 point scorers that season. Lemieux had 199 points himself in 76 games.

 

[johnjm22]

You guys think Blake will pursue Will Butcher in free agency?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Oh how I miss the days where players and teams were not over coached...

 

[johnjm22]

Oh how I miss the days where players and teams were not over coached...

One idea I heard tossed around is that the amount of practice time coaches can have with the team could be further limited in the CBA.

The idea being that it would make it harder to install rigid systems leading to more chaotic play and defensive breakdowns.

 

[Basilisk]

I don't think we'll ever get back to that level of scoring. Even with wider nets.

There was nine 100 point scorers that season. Lemieux had 199 points himself in 76 games.

Yes!!! Make those nets wider!!! It needs to be in proportion to how much % of the net was available to shoot at in the 1980's. Somewhere in there, there's a magical equation waiting to take us from a 3-2 league back to a 6-4 league. DO IT!!!!

 

[KopitarFAN]

The off-season special show is on FSW now, will re-air later as well.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The off-season special show is on FSW now, will re-air later as well.

It was rather dull, and very reflective of the team.

 

[The Tikkanen]

Oh how I miss the days where players and teams were not over coached...

The Russians dismantling the Canadians in The Summit Series forever changed hockey. Esposito said they didn't run plays, they just played hockey until they lost to the Russians. Not only running systems but the Russians were also doing cross fit type workouts if you watch the old tapes. We can't compare eras but I like to think I was lucky enough to see some of it knowing it will never go back to that again.

 

[KopitarFAN]

It was rather dull, and very reflective of the team.

Well said. Enjoying the interview with Bob though.

 

[KingsHockey24]

Random but Milan Lucic is with Jack Campbell, Derek Forbort, Tyler Toffoli and Alec Martinez to celebrate his birthday.

 

[YP44]

One idea I heard tossed around is that the amount of practice time coaches can have with the team could be further limited in the CBA.

The idea being that it would make it harder to install rigid systems leading to more chaotic play and defensive breakdowns.

It already has been limited

 

[YP44]

Random but Milan Lucic is with Jack Campbell, Derek Forbort, Tyler Toffoli and Alec Martinez to celebrate his birthday.

I find it oddest that Campbell is in there.

 

[johnjm22]

It already has been limited

I said "further limited."

 

[KingsFan7824]

I don't think we'll ever get back to that level of scoring. Even with wider nets.

There was nine 100 point scorers that season. Lemieux had 199 points himself in 76 games.

It's a different time. Context changes. It was a perfect storm in the 80's. The league more than tripled in size in the 70's, mostly with Canadian players, then as more of the best non-Canadians pushed the worst Canadians out, it gets that much more difficult to score, as coaches have more talent to work with. If the NHL had 90 teams today, I'm pretty sure goals per game would go up.

Equipment got better for everyone, not just goalies, and when you see some of the holes the puck finds even today, you can see that a couple inches of padding here and there can make a huge difference. Everyone blocks shots now too, it's not just the psycho on the team putting his face in front of the puck.

You guys think Blake will pursue Will Butcher in free agency?

Can never have enough, but they've got a lot of defensemen under contract already. Born in Wisconsin, so that's probably going to be Minnesota or Chicago.

Oh how I miss the days where players and teams were not over coached...

What does over coached mean? Basically, minimizing mistakes, right? That's what everyone tries to do in their job. It's professional sports, not pond hockey. Coaches just have more players with more ability today. Instead of riding 3 lines, most coaches try to be more efficient with 4 on shorter shifts.

If your line is out there for 45 seconds, the other team has one out there for a minute, over time, you're going to lose the battle. More and more coaches are then forced into doing things the same way. Same with other spheres of life. Damn near everything is done on a computer. Everyone has a phone.

One idea I heard tossed around is that the amount of practice time coaches can have with the team could be further limited in the CBA.

The idea being that it would make it harder to install rigid systems leading to more chaotic play and defensive breakdowns.

Yet the fate of coaches will still be tied to the performance of players. If your job was dependent on the success of other people, not necessarily on your own skill and aptitude, would you let them make mistakes to increase the overall level of entertainment at the office?

Yes!!! Make those nets wider!!! It needs to be in proportion to how much % of the net was available to shoot at in the 1980's. Somewhere in there, there's a magical equation waiting to take us from a 3-2 league back to a 6-4 league. DO IT!!!!

We can see with 3v3 that the nets aren't necessarily too small, or that goalie equipment is necessarily too big. Full time 4v4 might be the way to go.

The Russians dismantling the Canadians in The Summit Series forever changed hockey. Esposito said they didn't run plays, they just played hockey until they lost to the Russians. Not only running systems but the Russians were also doing cross fit type workouts if you watch the old tapes. We can't compare eras but I like to think I was lucky enough to see some of it knowing it will never go back to that again.

Organized will more often than not beat disorganized. Efficient will more often than not be more effective than inefficient.