2017/2018 Management Discussion | NEW MOD WARNING IN OP AS OF 5/20/18

[Bleach Clean]

The worst part about it all isn't just his education, he had basically zero experience before taking the job. We would be in a much better position than we are today if he had spent years learning the ropes from someone competent and worked his way up to the position he's in right now.

I would contest that it's not even education or experience. Burke is a lawyer and he can be an outright buffoon sometimes. Feaster had years of experience before taking over in CGY, and he was a disaster there. It's not either one of these things. It's the ability of a leader to recognize competence in his followers. That's it. Really, this franchise is at the mercy of Trevor Linden and his ability to assess GM knowledge --> it very likely would have resulted in failure, and it did. Look at how different Shanahan has been in his approach.

I'm not a fan of Ferraro. I think he can be overtly stubborn, but he understands how to think. He understands how to approach an unknown and tackle it. He knows that he doesn't know much. That's key. The ability to entertain many avenues, and to reason their conclusions critically, is the most important aspect of a GM. Or, any manager really.

When you don't know anything about a candidate, you can often infer that education and experience tells you something about a person's ability to reason and to strategize. It's a cheat sheet of sorts, but it's not the person. This is all about evaluating people.

 

[RandV]

I would contest that it's not even education or experience. Burke is a lawyer and he can be an outright buffoon sometimes. Feaster had years of experience before taking over in CGY, and he was a disaster there. It's not either one of these things. It's the ability of a leader to recognize competence in his followers. That's it. Really, this franchise is at the mercy of Trevor Linden and his ability to assess GM knowledge --> it very likely would have resulted in failure, and it did. Look at how different Shanahan has been in his approach.

I'm not a fan of Ferraro. I think he can be overtly stubborn, but he understands how to think. He understands how to approach an unknown and tackle it. He knows that he doesn't know much. That's key. The ability to entertain many avenues, and to reason their conclusions critically, is the most important aspect of a GM. Or, any manager really.

When you don't know anything about a candidate, you can often infer that education and experience tells you something about a person's ability to reason and to strategize. It's a cheat sheet of sorts, but it's not the person. This is all about evaluating people.

And contrasting that let's not forget that Linden was wowed by Benning because he could remember goals players scored in junior.

 

[Wilch]

And contrasting that let's not forget that Linden was wowed by Benning because he could remember goals players scored in junior.

Probably the only thing Jimbo remembers too. He probably has some form of anterograde amnesia.

 

[arttk]

Most of the guys in hockey ops don't have degrees or diplomas,..The owners,and board of directors running the $700M franchises do have business diplomas. (or are extremely business savvy)..They are actually 'running' the franchise

What kind of post secondary education does Steve Yzerman have?

And most of the franchises aren't run really well. I mean in the last 10+ years, there are like a handful of team that you would say, yeah that's a well run franchise.

I think Yzerman is doing great but look at most of the good teams right now, most of them are run by not former players.

 

[Verviticus]

The worst part about it all isn't just his education, he had basically zero experience before taking the job. We would be in a much better position than we are today if he had spent years learning the ropes from someone competent and worked his way up to the position he's in right now.

disagree. i think hes just permanently stupid and infirm. no amount of experience or education can help him

 

[WTG]

Most of the guys in hockey ops don't have degrees or diplomas,..The owners,and board of directors running the $700M franchises do have business diplomas. (or are extremely business savvy)..They are actually 'running' the franchise

What kind of post secondary education does Steve Yzerman have?

This weak sauce...

Just because the rest of the league is also ass-backwards doesn't justify being ass-backwards.
Just because Steve Yzerman is an outlier doesn't make him the rule.

I can understand defending Benning on certain issues, but it really seems like you haven't thought this out my dude.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

This weak sauce...

Just because the rest of the league is also ass-backwards doesn't justify being ass-backwards.
Just because Steve Yzerman is an outlier doesn't make him the rule.

I can understand defending Benning on certain issues, but it really seems like you haven't thought this out my dude.

The league being ass backwards is your opinion...and everybody has one...no facts there.

Only 11 of the leagues 31 GM's have a post secondary education..The rest have learned coming up through the hockey ranks...

 

[Wilch]

The league being ass backwards is your opinion...and everybody has one...no facts there.

Only 11 of the leagues 31 GM's have a post secondary education..The rest have learned coming up through the hockey ranks...

It's not an opinion. The fact that two thirds of the teams in the NHL are run by people without any formal business/operation training or education shows how ass backwards this league is. It's even more obvious when you benchmark it against the NBA and the MLB, where teams are pegged at much higher valuations than NHL teams.

 

[WTG]

The league being ass backwards is your opinion...and everybody has one...no facts there.

Only 11 of the leagues 31 GM's have a post secondary education..The rest have learned coming up through the hockey ranks...

Like what Wilch said, compare that to the other 3 major sports markets in North America.

You wonder why there is such an old-boys club in hockey.

 

[arttk]

The league being ass backwards is your opinion...and everybody has one...no facts there.

Only 11 of the leagues 31 GM's have a post secondary education..The rest have learned coming up through the hockey ranks...

Just look at the state of the teams in the NHL and you’ll see most of them are not well run. There are way more perpetually bad teams than perpetually good teams.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

It's not an opinion. The fact that two thirds of the teams in the NHL are run by people without any formal business/operation training or education shows how ass backwards this league is. It's even more obvious when you benchmark it against the NBA and the MLB, where teams are pegged at much higher valuations than NHL teams.

ALL People" running" the teams DO HAVE BUSINESS/OPERATIONAL training....Most people in charge of hockey ops do not.

Spot the difference.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Just look at the state of the teams in the NHL and you’ll see most of them are not well run. There are way more perpetually bad teams than perpetually good teams.

That goes for any pro sport...some management groups are better than others.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Like what Wilch said, compare that to the other 3 major sports markets in North America.

You wonder why there is such an old-boys club in hockey.

Hockey has never ..and will never ever be ..as big as basketball and baseball in North America...

 

[arttk]

That goes for any pro sport...

I mean socialized sports leagues only exists in NA so I guess you can only compare it to NBA, NFL and MLB( I know nothing about baseball.
It will be an interesting exercise to map how many perpetually bad teams there are in each league.

I always like the Ws and them applying the startup mentality to sports. I wonder when someone will try that in the NHL, I guess the last person to have done that in the NHL is MG.

 

[arttk]

Hockey has never ..and will never ever be ..as big as basketball and baseball in North America...

Difference between big and modernized. Don’t need to be big to be modernized.

People are just resistant to change because it will lock them out of the game. Post player life now lies in management, if those jobs goes to business people than a lot of hockey players and current execs are going to be screwed, hence the resistance to it. Change is always hard even if it makes sense.

 

[WTG]

" I'm a big believer of the fundamentals of the game and they haven't changed in 100 years. "
-Trevor Linden
"The reason we have the season and play the games is those intangibles, it's how your team comes together, it's how they gel, it's how they play, it's the trust they have in one another, it's the belief in the system they're playing."
-Trevor Linden
"Certainly you're always looking for better ways to do things, but I think you can get down a path where your focus isn't on what's important, but is on the extra 2-or-3%. "
-Trevor Linden

The game hasn't changed guys, and if we all believe in each other and the power of friendship we can win more games. Also margins do not matter.

 

[WTG]

Hockey has never ..and will never ever be ..as big as basketball and baseball in North America...

What has that to do with anything?

 

[Jyrki21]

What has that to do with anything?

In this case, it's fair – above you suggested that franchise valuation was lower in the NHL because of mismanagement, and in this case he's right that that's not the reason.

He's wrong about everything else, though.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

What has that to do with anything?

I didn't bring up the NBA and MLB..

Point being...as far as NHL hockey is concerned,having diplomas and business degrees in the hockey ops department does not make you smarter or anymore successful than guys that have gone the traditional hockey route.

 

[WTG]

I didn't bring up the NBA and MLB..

Point being...as far as NHL hockey is concerned,having diplomas and business degrees in the hockey ops department does not make you smarter or anymore successful than guys that have gone the traditional hockey route.

Doesn't make you smarter to have a degree, just makes you more educated. I'm not suggesting that these people are "dumber" for only having highschool diplomas. Just that entrusting your franchise to them, when they do not really have been educated on techniques and different strategies. It's basically like taking your most popular/best soldier and turning them into a general without the Officers training. Maybe not to that extent, but you get what I mean.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Doesn't make you smarter to have a degree, just makes you more educated. I'm not suggesting that these people are "dumber" for only having highschool diplomas. Just that entrusting your franchise to them, when they do not really have been educated on techniques and different strategies. It's basically like taking your most popular/best soldier and turning them into a general without the Officers training. Maybe not to that extent, but you get what I mean.

Well ..20 NHL owners must be pretty dumb then,entrusting their multimillion dollar franchises to GM's with no post secondary education.

Imagine that?

 

[WTG]

Well ..20 NHL owners must be pretty dumb then,entrusting their multimillion dollar franchises to men with no post secondary education.

Imagine that?

What is so hard to believe about that?
This authority you are appealing to is pretty flimsy.

Speaking about the ownership system, it should be radically changed. IMO we should have a similar system like what they have in Soccer. What's the point in heavily investing into the team if you can't invest into the team, you get what I mean.

 

[Melvin]

I mean socialized sports leagues only exists in NA so I guess you can only compare it to NBA, NFL and MLB( I know nothing about baseball.
It will be an interesting exercise to map how many perpetually bad teams there are in each league.

I always like the Ws and them applying the startup mentality to sports. I wonder when someone will try that in the NHL, I guess the last person to have done that in the NHL is MG.

Baseball used to be the same as nhl. There has been a massive, massive shift the past 10-15 years. The same will happen in hockey.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Well ..20 NHL owners must be pretty dumb then,entrusting their multimillion dollar franchises to GM's with no post secondary education.

Imagine that?

This is called an appeal to authority. You are not making an argument or proving a point, you are simply stating that you place your blind faith in NHL owners and their ability to hire smart hockey minds.

Some people prefer to go through life letting other people make the decisions for them.

Other people prefer to use facts, logic and critical thinking to make decisions on their own.

It’s fine if you’re the former, but there are plenty of posters on here who are the latter.

I will openly state that I firmly believe that the majority of NHL owners, millionaires or not, do not have a good understanding on how to build and run a successful franchise. And often overlooked, is that maybe, some of them don’t even care. As long as there’s profit coming in and they can “own a team” they’re happy.

Not every owner has Mark Cuban level passion for winning.

 

[Wilch]

Point being...as far as NHL hockey is concerned,having diplomas and business degrees in the hockey ops department does not make you smarter or anymore successful than guys that have gone the traditional hockey route.

No, education isn't meant to make people smarter. Education is meant to equip people with the analytic ability to at least understand how they can optimize business & operations.

Guys who came through the "traditional hockey routes" are good at playing hockey. It has absolutely nothing to do with running a business. Some people like Yzerman, who are exceptional learners and are adaptive, can indeed come through without formal training - but are exception and not the norm. People who went through the gauntlet of actually giving a f*** about studying and learning turn out to be better learners and much more adaptive in general.

Education is not a fool proof method of determining a person's management capabilities, but it is a useful pre-screen/filter. Pretty much every god damn Fortune 500 company and heck, even startups, look for education pedigree when hiring. Only family businesses, old school highly unionized industries, dictatorships, poorly run not-for-profit foundations, and the NHL hire under-qualified idiots into key management positions.

ALL People" running" the teams DO HAVE BUSINESS/OPERATIONAL training....Most people in charge of hockey ops do not.

Spot the difference.

So you're saying the people with formal training are more qualified to run the team instead of the morons calling the shots now?