2017-18 EFL Carabao Cup

[Paulie Gualtieri]

The players were way too overconfident after the trip to Madrid, the Liverpool game and the first half today. I'm happy that it's this game that brings them back down to earth, rather than a PL game. Winning a Thai Energy Drink Cup doesn't give players more of a reason to stay IMO.

 

[Corto]

Typical West Ham. Show up when no one cares.

Part of me hoped they get pasted so Bilic finally sees the sack. Now they beat Palace and the countdown clock starts all over again? Stupid. God I hate our board.

I'm sure lots of people care. They're not winning any leagues anytime soon. This Cup is the biggest chance of a trophy.

Also, winning vs Spurs away is never bad - and Spurs fielded a pretty strong side as well.
...

Anyway, I thought Bilic was out of ideas, but the players are obviously still behind him according to Noble's post-game statements.
He played a 3-5-2, with Ayew and Carroll more central and feeding off each other and it worked really well in the 2nd half.

It does help that Ayew finally looked like a player they paid all that money for, that the midfield had Noble and Fernandes (one slow, one still inexperienced, but at least they can pass) and Kouyate goes from a tactically inept, awful passer in the midfield, to really a quite good CB.

Bilic has some tough choices for Saturday's game.
I imagine Ayew won a spot over Arnautovic, Zabaleta, Antonio, Reid and Chicharito are all coming back in.
It'll be interesting to see if he sticks with Noble and leaves Kouyate at CB.

 

[Evilo]

I guess it is possible but if winning trophies is all that matter and not how prestigeous or competitive they are they Tottenham can just create the Tottenham Cup play against their youth side win that and brag about the trophy they won.

I really can't see me caring much about a Trophy in which all the top clubs play less than 50% of the regular players and often have guys that even fans have to google who they are.

I just don't how winning a trophy nobody cares about is more impressive than finishing 2nd againt 19 other teams giving their best or why I am supposed to be upset that West Hams 1st team had to eke out a win against a Tottenham team with 3 regulars starting.

And I have said this before we lost in this or any other Cup so it isn't just a knee jerk reaction. The moronic "trophy" culture in European soccer is something I don't get. You should be happy/excited about doing something difficult not excited that your 3rd string was better than the other guys 3rd string.

Actually teams are serious about it when they start to go far.
I think any fan would take 4th+cup than 2nd +nothing.
There's no pride in finishing 2nd. A few years ago, that would just qualify you for the UEFA Cup. Big deal.
Now there seems to be a moral trophy attached to finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th because it gets you to CL (where Spurs have failed consistently BTW, until this yea at least). That's not what history is made of. History is made of wins, not second places.

 

[Evilo]

Ayew's better at CM, something I've said for years. Happy to see him back to a decent level after his big injury.

 

[Corto]

Ayew's better at CM, something I've said for years. Happy to see him back to a decent level after his big injury.

Yesterday was the first time when he looked like he wasn't constantly fighting the ball.
He does have a knack for being in the right place at the right time, and if he can keep this up, Bilic will suddenly have a massive upgrade in his team over the Ayew we saw since coming to WHU (or Arnautovic).
He was geniunely good last night, not WHU-good, but really, proper good. Good on the ball, good runs, 2 goals, very good defensively.

 

[Ceremony]

Actually teams are serious about it when they start to go far.
I think any fan would take 4th+cup than 2nd +nothing.
There's no pride in finishing 2nd. A few years ago, that would just qualify you for the UEFA Cup. Big deal.
Now there seems to be a moral trophy attached to finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th because it gets you to CL (where Spurs have failed consistently BTW, until this yea at least). That's not what history is made of. History is made of wins, not second places.

Nah mate cups don't matter, nobody cares

 

[Evilo]

Nobody as "you"?

 

[Baxterman]

Actually teams are serious about it when they start to go far.
I think any fan would take 4th+cup than 2nd +nothing.
There's no pride in finishing 2nd. A few years ago, that would just qualify you for the UEFA Cup. Big deal.
Now there seems to be a moral trophy attached to finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th because it gets you to CL (where Spurs have failed consistently BTW, until this yea at least). That's not what history is made of. History is made of wins, not second places.

I don't think any fan would take 4th and the Carabao Cup over 2nd. Some might, especially older and English fans, but I think there are a lot of fans that realize that the Cup really means nothing in terms of prestige, money, player retention/acquisition or entry into bigger competitions.

I could be wrong but I can't think any player is thinking "What Spurs finished 2nd in the EPL no thanks, but wait did you say they won the Carabao Cup, well now I can't wait to play for them."

I also don't think it is a moral trophy for finishing 2nd but a realization that a. it is a tough accomplishment and b. it guarantees you group stage CL which makes a huge difference in keeping top level talent around.

Again if all that matters is nothing trophies then teams can start making up their own trophies to win as they will have as much prestige as the Carabao Cup. As you said your self "teams start to care when they go far", how good of a tournament is it if you have to put qualifiers in about when teams care about it?

History is made up of wins for things that matter, not wins in meaningless competitions that teams and fans spend most of their time ignoring.

 

[Evilo]

Lol you think it's more meaningful to finish 2nd than 4th+cup?
Seriously?

Wow!

 

[phisherman]

Spurs do care about the league cup. They've published a DVD on it years ago for their greatest victory in club history in that competition.

 

[Cassano]

Lol you think it's more meaningful to finish 2nd than 4th+cup?
Seriously?

Wow!

This cup is borderline friendlies for EPL clubs I think. I would take FA + 4th or Europa win over 2nd only but that's about it.

 

[Cassano]

Spurs do care about the league cup. They've published a DVD on it years ago for their greatest victory in club history in that competition.[/QUOTE

 

[Baxterman]

Lol you think it's more meaningful to finish 2nd than 4th+cup?
Seriously?

Wow!

Yes and really it isn't really a tough call for me.

As All Might points out I would have think about a 4th and FA Cup or Europa League win versus 2nd but winning 2nd/3rd/4th rate Cups doesn't really mean much versus a great EPL season.

I also take 2nd place over those Cup wins because 2nd place means you are a much more talented team than a meaningless Cup win so it is much more likely to predict future success.

 

[East Coast Bias]

I don't think the League Cup is a big deal, and I'm not trying to troll Spurs fans, but if you haven't won anything in decades, you're not in a position to belittle it.

it's cool Poch thinks it's stupid, but it's a bad look to say it out loud.

(FWIW, I like Poch too)

 

[YEM]

yep 2nd and no cup is better than the arsenal trophy & cararoobarabarooo cup
no brainer

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Gimme 4th and a cup (preferably the FA, but League Cup is acceptable) over 2nd any day of the week. The idea that someone would take 2nd place over 4th and winning the Europa League is also hysterical to me, although unsurprising, considering this board's strange visceral hatred of the Europa League.

 

[phisherman]

Spurs Logic:

Getting CL place>Getting CL place AND a trophy.

 

[Evilo]

This cup is borderline friendlies for EPL clubs I think. I would take FA + 4th or Europa win over 2nd only but that's about it.

The fact you put Europa League win on par with an FA Cup and "barely" over 2nd place tells me all I need to know.

 

[Evilo]

Yes and really it isn't really a tough call for me.

As All Might points out I would have think about a 4th and FA Cup or Europa League win versus 2nd but winning 2nd/3rd/4th rate Cups doesn't really mean much versus a great EPL season.

I also take 2nd place over those Cup wins because 2nd place means you are a much more talented team than a meaningless Cup win so it is much more likely to predict future success.

Really?
So 2nd place in the Leicester year (Arsenal) means more than 4th+Cup?
Hilarious really.

Europeans don't feel that way. They know trophies is what motivates players. Of course, not all trophies are equal, and league Cups are clearly the weakest trophies of them all (after the friendlies obviously), but there are still trophies.
That is why a team like PSG always tries to win the domestic Cups even though it's really not an important trophy. Players want to win. That's how they live their football.
Losers mentality is for losers. And being happy with 2nd is losers mentality.

 

[phisherman]

Really?
So 2nd place in the Leicester year (Arsenal) means more than 4th+Cup?
Hilarious really.

Europeans don't feel that way. They know trophies is what motivates players. Of course, not all trophies are equal, and league Cups are clearly the weakest trophies of them all (after the friendlies obviously), but there are still trophies.
That is why a team like PSG always tries to win the domestic Cups even though it's really not an important trophy. Players want to win. That's how they live their football.
Losers mentality is for losers. And being happy with 2nd is losers mentality.

But 2nd place gives you the Moral Victory trophy. You can brag about how your team is better than all other teams and the only reason why they finished 2nd is because the team that finished 1st over achieved and got lucky.

 

[Cassano]

The fact you put Europa League win on par with an FA Cup and "barely" over 2nd place tells me all I need to know.

Not what I meant.

Europa (and non-relegation)
4th + FA Cup

2nd
4th + Carabao

Is how I'd rank it. For me, I'd take Utd's year's last year over Spurs last year.

 

[Savant]

Blatantly rigged draw. Initial draw delayed over an hour and a half because of “technical difficulties” and then a pre recorded video showed the “results”; the draw was not live. Next round:

Chelsea vs AFC Bournemouth
Arsenal vs West Ham United
Leicester City vs Manchester City
Bristol City vs Manchester United

 

[hatterson]

QF draw:

(Home) vs. (Away)

Chelsea v Bournemouth
Arsenal v West Ham
Leicester v Man City
Bristol v United

So Bristol at least gets a good gate income. Likely semis would be Chelsea, Arsenal, City and United, although who knows with rotated squads playing.

 

[Baxterman]

Players want to win. That's how they live their football.
Losers mentality is for losers. And being happy with 2nd is losers mentality.

So you think that Players are honestly looking at Spurs and checking to see how they did in the Carabao Cup? That 2 years in a row in CL and another trip this year isn't enough because they don't have that coveted Carabao Cup win?

And as I mentioned how deep do we go with the "trophies"? Does Arsenal already have a great season locked up after winning the Emirates Cup (or whatever that joke tournament was pre-season they "won" on GD)?

Again if I make up 40 tournaments and Spurs win them all do they get to claim all the best players since they "won."

If the players want to win these Cups so badly how come they aren't fighting to get into the line-up? How come Kane and Lloris didn't tell Poch too bad when he say them yesterday?

Is how I'd rank it. For me, I'd take Utd's year's last year over Spurs last year.

I never really thought about Cups but after last year and people claiming that United and Arsenal had better seasons because they won "trophies" that's when I realized how crazy it is.

For me, there is no way that United had a better season than Spurs last year. If that was a Spurs season I would be disappointed. It is somewhat mitigated by the fact that Europa league now has a CL spot but really to me the Spurs had a much better season.

Also I will say this is talking in generalities. The biggest reason I prefer finishing in 2nd is that means you are a better team and likely to have more success going forward. If it was a case of finishing 2nd by 1 or 2 points or 4th and the trophy maybe then I change my mind but it rarely happens that way.

Also how long could United have gone last year before the trophy doesn't outweigh league finish? Or is there no bottom, 20th place and Europa League title is better than everything but 1st?

 

[Evilo]

No, crazy is to think that CL+Cup is less than CL period.
And you only care about attractivity. What I'm telling you is that players WANT to win.
If I'm a player looking at signing with Spurs or other big EPL teams right now, my question would be : who are the losers?
Easy answer : the guys who win nothing. Who never won anything for years and don't look poised to win anything for years.

Saying 2nd is automatically being better than the 4th+Cup team is also highly arguable.

Relegation is obviously a failure but any european trophy win is more important than any trophy except league title and even then CL title is much more important. That's how players think too.
16th+EL is MUCH better than 2nd.
You get a CL qualification AND a major trophy.