Prospect Info: 2015-16 Calgary Flames Prospect Stats & Discussion Thread (CHL, NCAA & Europe)

[OvermanKingGainer]

Not saying we should be taking Mange's NHLe as gospel, but I'm starting to think some people are going out of their way to find reasons to be sceptical about him at this point.

Not sure it's "some people". Seems to me that it's just "some person" who has been an inflexible Mangiapane detractor since day one but will defend a less productive-at-18-or-19-and-probably-20 Klimchuk out of sheer personal bias.

 

[Anglesmith]

I'm happy with Mangiapane, to clarify. I just don't think him playing on the second line can be taken as a definitive point in his favour.

Overall, though, I don't think there's really anything Mangiapane could have done better since we've drafted him. But he is going to be 20 in less than a month. He's older than, for instance, Sam Bennett. This is only his third CHL season, but that age difference can be big depending on how his development curve is shaped. Cautious optimism is absolutely the right way to go here.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

But he is going to be 20 in less than a month. He's older than, for instance, Sam Bennett.

He's also younger than, for instance, Brett Pollock.

 

[Volica]

Cautious optimism is absolutely the right way to go here.

Agreed. Strange that anyone would feel different.

 

[Dertell]

Being on the second line goes two ways, though. If he's not on the first line, he's not seeing top opposition. It's a benefit of being on a strong team and being able to feast on second pairings and forward lines who are less defensively responsible.

I'm doubtful QoC is that significant or legit, even in junior, to the point of balancing how his lower QoT & TOI is in his "favour".

Of course, website for minor league stats are in their infancy, so it's hard to have a clear idea.

 

[Lunatik]

His NHLe is almost 50 points

I stopped reading here. ANy post based on this mumbo jumbo is not worth reading. There is no way to calculate how a player will do as a pro until they are a pro. It is really that simple.

 

[SKRusty]

I stopped reading here. ANy post based on this mumbo jumbo is not worth reading. There is no way to calculate how a player will do as a pro until they are a pro. It is really that simple.

To me Matthews screams over-rated. In many ways he has chose the option that does not test his weaknesses. You can have all this skill in the world but if you don't have a solid work ethic and the dedication to improvement you are set up to fail.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

To me Matthews screams over-rated. In many ways he has chose the option that does not test his weaknesses. You can have all this skill in the world but if you don't have a solid work ethic and the dedication to improvement you are set up to fail.

What?

How does Matthews enter this conversation in this thread and how would the CHL test his weakness better than a league full of grown men players who can actually play defense and higher caliber goalies?

 

[SKRusty]

What?

How does Matthews enter this conversation in this thread and how would the CHL test his weakness better than a league full of grown men players who can actually play defense and higher caliber goalies?

Overman and I were discussing Matthews and the NHLe scores. That is how it is tied together.

The Swiss league is not as competitive as most would like to believe. Your statement regarding the defense and goalies his highly questionable. Many would suggest the competition there ranks below the ECHL and is especially suspect in regards to defense.

Yakapov played in the KHL and has had issues transitioning his game to the NHL level.

I see Matthews as a pretty big risk for a first overall pick.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Overman and I were discussing Matthews and the NHLe scores. That is how it is tied together.

The Swiss league is not as competitive as most would like to believe. Your statement regarding the defense and goalies his highly questionable. Many would suggest the competition there ranks below the ECHL and is especially suspect in regards to defense.

Yakapov played in the KHL and has had issues transitioning his game to the NHL level.

I see Matthews as a pretty big risk for a first overall pick.

Eh I think most would argue that the CHL is hardly known for defensive play or high quality goaltending compared to men's leagues.
[mod]

 

[FLAMESFAN]

Eh I think most would argue that the CHL is hardly known for defensive play or high quality goaltending compared to men's leagues.
[mod]

But wouldn't you agree that the Swiss league is a few steps down from the main Euro leagues? I think that's all he is trying to say.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

But wouldn't you agree that the Swiss league is a few steps down from the main Euro leagues? I think that's all he is trying to say.

Yeah there is no question The Finnish league is higher quality competition than the Swiss.

I think the gap between Matthews and the Fins isn't as big as people on HF make it. Which is why if I was offered Pulju/Laine and Duclair for Matthews I would take it without hesitation.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

Yeah there is no question The Finnish league is higher quality competition than the Swiss.

I think the gap between Matthews and the Fins isn't as big as people on HF make it. Which is why if I was offered Pulju/Laine and Duclair for Matthews I would take it without hesitation.

And I was one of the few who agreed with you on that (although I don't know about without hesitation....). To me that offer would be very hard to pass up.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Yeah there is no question The Finnish league is higher quality competition than the Swiss.

I think the gap between Matthews and the Fins isn't as big as people on HF make it. Which is why if I was offered Pulju/Laine and Duclair for Matthews I would take it without hesitation.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if they offered that.

We've not seen a whole lot of trade downs in the top 5, let alone the top 10 for a long time because the cost is obnoxious.

 

[moon*]

I think there definitely is a gap between Matthews and the Finns but if they offer Duclair I would take that deal in a heartbeat.

 

[AgeOfBennett]

Yeah there is no question The Finnish league is higher quality competition than the Swiss.

I think the gap between Matthews and the Fins isn't as big as people on HF make it. Which is why if I was offered Pulju/Laine and Duclair for Matthews I would take it without hesitation.

Then imagine if we made that Yakupov trade talked about in the other thread.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Yakupov
Laine - Bennett - Duclair

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

To me Matthews screams over-rated. In many ways he has chose the option that does not test his weaknesses. You can have all this skill in the world but if you don't have a solid work ethic and the dedication to improvement you are set up to fail.

No, Matthews chose the option that's the absolute best for his development, playing pro hockey under a pro coach (Crawford) instead of spending 80% of his week studying (NCAA) or dominating little kids in pond hockey (CHL).

Also you seem to have confused this with the draft thread.

The Swiss league is not as competitive as most would like to believe. Your statement regarding the defense and goalies his highly questionable. Many would suggest the competition there ranks below the ECHL and is especially suspect in regards to defense.

That is absurd. Here are the NHL players who played in the Swiss league during the lockout as imports, and the numbers they put up:

Player|Age|PPG
Tavares|22|1.5
Bergeron|27|1.38
Matthews | 18 | 1.28
Kane|24|1.15
Thornton|33|1.09
Spezza|29|1.07
Nash|28|1.06
Couture|23|1.05

If the defense was that suspect, why did all these veteran NHL stars fail to produce Junior type stat lines?

Yes it's a different league which not a single person said otherwise, but it's absolutely embarrassing that you could imply it's a worse level of play than the ECHL, which is where overage Juniors go because they can't land AHL or Europe deals. The better players in NLA would be AHL all stars and many are/were fringe NHLers. And while physicality matters, a 200lb man-child like Matthews is not exactly seeing a challenge in beating up 16 year olds on the corners. He's already been there and done that when he played USNTDP (they not only saw USHL and NAHL opponents but also faced NCAA Div 1 opponents) last year.

Yakapov played in the KHL and has had issues transitioning his game to the NHL level.

Actually the year Yakupov played in the KHL, he proceeded to put up an NHL pace of 29G/24A/53P for his lockout-shortened rookie season. So you could argue that Yakupov playing in the KHL was about the only good thing that ever happened to his development because he didn't start outright sucking until the year after. Additionally the KHL is a tougher league also than the SHL or Liiga. If you're going to use a Yakupov analogy against Matthews, it easily applies to the Finns.

I see Matthews as a pretty big risk for a first overall pick.

If Matthews is a "pretty big risk" for a first overall pick, then Johnny Gaudreau was a hail Mary for a 104th overall pick.

 

[SaintMorose]

Don't really understand the love for yak at this point. I mean he's a guy I'd take a chance on if the price was right but that price shouldn't be as high as what Sven was traded for.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Don't really understand the love for yak at this point. I mean he's a guy I'd take a chance on if the price was right but that price shouldn't be as high as what Sven was traded for.

Agreed. Sven > Yakupov

 

[Dertell]

Swiss-A is pretty bad for a men league, but worse defensively than the ECHL? That's like saying the QMJHL is better defensively than the AHL.

 

[Lunatik]

Don't really understand the love for yak at this point. I mean he's a guy I'd take a chance on if the price was right but that price shouldn't be as high as what Sven was traded for.

Yak has proved much more than Sven had, suggesting his value should be listed wet is laughable

 

[Lunatik]

Yak has proved much more than Sven had, suggesting his value should be listed wet is laughable

I ****ng hate my iPad.

Suggesting his Val e should be less is laughable

 

[SaintMorose]

Yak has proved much more than Sven had, suggesting his value should be less is laughable

Value's not just about what who's done the most at which level, it's also about not having your weaknesses exposed.
At this point we know who Yakupov is as an NHL player after watching him this year we know that even if you gift him minutes with McDavid and Draisaitl he still cannot out produce Joe Colborne (this should be eye-opening to anyone who wants to trade actual assets for him).
Yeah there are some attributes we may like and think could eventually make him a better player than Joe, but right now Joe is better in all 3 zones; so all Yakupov has proven at an NHL level is he isn't a top 6 forward.

On the other hand Sven was mismanaged.
He had a GM that would tell him one thing and a coach that would tell him another, and the tenacity he showed might not get rewarded on the scoreboard and for whatever reason we couldn't get him to stay with that consistently and let him cheat (huge difference between how we handled that and how we've handled Sam Bennett). The weaknesses Sven showed were all not being mentally strong in a system that wasn't guiding him. Since joining Vancouver he's still had to work his way up (but with the organization giving him more space to do so) and his 28 points in 62 games is a good start towards being a legitimate NHL player.

In the long run Sven will be a better player than Nail, if he doesn't fall into old habits and Nail is dragged up the scoring list kicking and screaming by McDavid

 

[Lunatik]

Value's not just about what who's done the most at which level, it's also about not having your weaknesses exposed.
At this point we know who Yakupov is as an NHL player after watching him this year we know that even if you gift him minutes with McDavid and Draisaitl he still cannot out produce Joe Colborne (this should be eye-opening to anyone who wants to trade actual assets for him).
Yeah there are some attributes we may like and think could eventually make him a better player than Joe, but right now Joe is better in all 3 zones; so all Yakupov has proven at an NHL level is he isn't a top 6 forward.

On the other hand Sven was mismanaged.
He had a GM that would tell him one thing and a coach that would tell him another, and the tenacity he showed might not get rewarded on the scoreboard and for whatever reason we couldn't get him to stay with that consistently and let him cheat (huge difference between how we handled that and how we've handled Sam Bennett). The weaknesses Sven showed were all not being mentally strong in a system that wasn't guiding him. Since joining Vancouver he's still had to work his way up (but with the organization giving him more space to do so) and his 28 points in 62 games is a good start towards being a legitimate NHL player.

In the long run Sven will be a better player than Nail, if he doesn't fall into old habits and Nail is dragged up the scoring list kicking and screaming by McDavid

Your delusions are strong eh? You really need to reign in your blind hate man because you are just talking nonsense.

Sven gets a pass for being mismanaged but Yak doesn't? And the only weakness Sven showed was mentally? WHat a big steaming load of ****. Sven was poor defensively, his work ethic was suspect on the ice and he was a self-entitled little baby who refused to work hard.

Here is the thing you don't seem to understand, teams still pay for potential. A first overall pick from just 4 years ago will get more in a trade than a mid-round first from 3 years ago when both have been mismanaged.

 

[SKRusty]

No, Matthews chose the option that's the absolute best for his development, playing pro hockey under a pro coach (Crawford) instead of spending 80% of his week studying (NCAA) or dominating little kids in pond hockey (CHL).

Also you seem to have confused this with the draft thread.



That is absurd. Here are the NHL players who played in the Swiss league during the lockout as imports, and the numbers they put up:

Player|Age|PPG
Tavares|22|1.5
Bergeron|27|1.38
Matthews | 18 | 1.28
Kane|24|1.15
Thornton|33|1.09
Spezza|29|1.07
Nash|28|1.06
Couture|23|1.05

If the defense was that suspect, why did all these veteran NHL stars fail to produce Junior type stat lines?

Yes it's a different league which not a single person said otherwise, but it's absolutely embarrassing that you could imply it's a worse level of play than the ECHL, which is where overage Juniors go because they can't land AHL or Europe deals. The better players in NLA would be AHL all stars and many are/were fringe NHLers. And while physicality matters, a 200lb man-child like Matthews is not exactly seeing a challenge in beating up 16 year olds on the corners. He's already been there and done that when he played USNTDP (they not only saw USHL and NAHL opponents but also faced NCAA Div 1 opponents) last year.



Actually the year Yakupov played in the KHL, he proceeded to put up an NHL pace of 29G/24A/53P for his lockout-shortened rookie season. So you could argue that Yakupov playing in the KHL was about the only good thing that ever happened to his development because he didn't start outright sucking until the year after. Additionally the KHL is a tougher league also than the SHL or Liiga. If you're going to use a Yakupov analogy against Matthews, it easily applies to the Finns.





If Matthews is a "pretty big risk" for a first overall pick, then Johnny Gaudreau was a hail Mary for a 104th overall pick.

The thing you don't mention is that all the NHLers were playing over in Europe. Of course it allowed for good development then but the idea today the Swiss league is even close to the other Euro leagues is almost laughable.

There is no doubt Matthews was the best skater in the Swiss league but the defensive capabilities of any team is suspect.

D-men in the A league: David Runblad, Marc-Andre Bergeron, Tim Ramholt, Alex Picard, Keaton Ellerby, and Erik Gustafsson to name of a few that people may know.

The more I read about and watch the more one dimensional Matthews appears. I like Jankowski's potential more than Matthews at this point.

That said I will let time tell the story.

My point was more that you use stats to excess to form your thoughts. I choose to watch read and develop an opinion. Stats are a good tool but the intangibles teams need can't be found in any stat.