Speculation: 2013-14 Free Agent, Trades, and Proposals (including Leafs Props)

TmlHockeyFan · Aug 28, 2013

When does training camp start?

Cool Hand Luke · Aug 29, 2013

I just realized something about Phaneuf and CORSI. On and on, Dion apologists use the concept of "well he faced the highest quality of competition of any D-man in the league" as being a measure of his worth.

If you think about how match-ups work (especially with RC) that scenario is achieved two ways.

1. 50% of those stats are matchups that occur on home ice. That means, that with the final change, Dion is getting put out there against the best players because the coaching staff believes in him as the most capable to shut them down.

2. The other 50% of the matchups are happening on the road. Again, with the advantage of final change, opposition coaches are putting their best players out there against Dion on purpose. Now you have to ask yourself, if you believed that Dion Phaneuf was a top D in this league, why would you constantly put your best players out against him? Would you not wait until an inferior defender was on the ice to put out your stars? No, the dude is obviously a target by opposition coaches.

So in one case, our coaches consider him the strongest possible option against the leagues best. In the other case...well, seemingly not so much. Why would Claude Julien put out his hottest line against Phaneuf if he thought he was the best D-man we've got? Oh...right, because it worked. (Game 7)

Two words: Over Rated

I stand by this. Trade Phaneuf for a young, cheap controllable player with upside as a #1D. Gives us space to sign Kadri and Franson. Sign a guy cheap like Gilbert or Hainsey to play with Gunnarsson on the second pairing, and run with Gardiner-Franson as your 1A/1B with Gunnarsson/Gilbert or Hainsey. Yes, we might take a step back, but what we could get for Phaneuf will make us better in the long run. That player, or Morgan Reilly could be the #1D we've needed for decades.

I don't hate the guy. I don't even think he is that bad at what he does. But, to sum it up, it is of my opinion that the Toronto Maple Leafs will NEVER WIN THE STANLEY CUP AS LONG AS DION PHANEUF IS OUR #1D AND CAPTAIN. So why waste any more time.

(sorry...I might have turned this into another Dion debate. I just needed to get that off my chest for the last time. I will shut up about it now.)

jmart21 · Aug 29, 2013

Cool Hand Luke said:
I just realized something about Phaneuf and CORSI. On and on, Dion apologists use the concept of "well he faced the highest quality of competition of any D-man in the league" as being a measure of his worth.

If you think about how match-ups work (especially with RC) that scenario is achieved two ways.

1. 50% of those stats are matchups that occur on home ice. That means, that with the final change, Dion is getting put out there against the best players because the coaching staff believes in him as the most capable to shut them down.

2. The other 50% of the matchups are happening on the road. Again, with the advantage of final change, opposition coaches are putting their best players out there against Dion on purpose. Now you have to ask yourself, if you believed that Dion Phaneuf was a top D in this league, why would you constantly put your best players out against him? Would you not wait until an inferior defender was on the ice to put out your stars? No, the dude is obviously a target by opposition coaches.

So in one case, our coaches consider him the strongest possible option against the leagues best. In the other case...well, seemingly not so much. Why would Claude Julien put out his hottest line against Phaneuf if he thought he was the best D-man we've got? Oh...right, because it worked. (Game 7)

Two words: Over Rated

I stand by this. Trade Phaneuf for a young, cheap controllable player with upside. Gives us space to sign Kadri and Franson. Sign a guy cheap like Gilbert or Hainsey to play with Gunnarsson on the second pairing, and run with Gardiner-Franson as your 1A/1B with Gunnarsson/Gilbert or Hainsey. Yes, we might take a step back, but what we could get for Phaneuf will make us better in the long run.

I don't hate the guy. I don't even think he is that bad at what he does. But, to sum it up, it is of my opinion that the Toronto Maple Leafs will NEVER WIN THE STANLEY CUP AS LONG AS DION PHANEUF IS OUR #1D AND CAPTAIN. So why waste any more time.

(sorry...I might have turned this into another Dion debate. I just needed to get that off my chest for the last time. I will shut up about it now.)

So let me get this straight. You think that opposing coaches feel Dion is the one they need to get their best players on against?

So... who exactly in our D pairing are opposing coaches keeping their stars away from? Because I find it hard to beleive that anyone (no matter what their personal opinion on Dion) would actually think we have anyone in our top 4 that does a better job shutting down players as Dion does.

New Liskeard · Aug 29, 2013

Cool Hand Luke said:
I just realized something about Phaneuf and CORSI. On and on, Dion apologists use the concept of "well he faced the highest quality of competition of any D-man in the league" as being a measure of his worth.

If you think about how match-ups work (especially with RC) that scenario is achieved two ways.

1. 50% of those stats are matchups that occur on home ice. That means, that with the final change, Dion is getting put out there against the best players because the coaching staff believes in him as the most capable to shut them down.

2. The other 50% of the matchups are happening on the road. Again, with the advantage of final change, opposition coaches are putting their best players out there against Dion on purpose. Now you have to ask yourself, if you believed that Dion Phaneuf was a top D in this league, why would you constantly put your best players out against him? Would you not wait until an inferior defender was on the ice to put out your stars? No, the dude is obviously a target by opposition coaches.

So in one case, our coaches consider him the strongest possible option against the leagues best. In the other case...well, seemingly not so much. Why would Claude Julien put out his hottest line against Phaneuf if he thought he was the best D-man we've got? Oh...right, because it worked. (Game 7)

Two words: Over Rated

I stand by this. Trade Phaneuf for a young, cheap controllable player with upside as a #1D. Gives us space to sign Kadri and Franson. Sign a guy cheap like Gilbert or Hainsey to play with Gunnarsson on the second pairing, and run with Gardiner-Franson as your 1A/1B with Gunnarsson/Gilbert or Hainsey. Yes, we might take a step back, but what we could get for Phaneuf will make us better in the long run. That player, or Morgan Reilly could be the #1D we've needed for decades.

I don't hate the guy. I don't even think he is that bad at what he does. But, to sum it up, it is of my opinion that the Toronto Maple Leafs will NEVER WIN THE STANLEY CUP AS LONG AS DION PHANEUF IS OUR #1D AND CAPTAIN. So why waste any more time.

(sorry...I might have turned this into another Dion debate. I just needed to get that off my chest for the last time. I will shut up about it now.)

Getting rid of Phaneuf makes the team much worse. Unless a better D can be found, and there are not many better and available, so I dont see the point. Reilly and Gardiner have a long way to go before proving to be number 1 D.

SarcazemKadri · Aug 29, 2013

Cool Hand Luke said:
I just realized something about Phaneuf and CORSI. On and on, Dion apologists use the concept of "well he faced the highest quality of competition of any D-man in the league" as being a measure of his worth.

If you think about how match-ups work (especially with RC) that scenario is achieved two ways.

1. 50% of those stats are matchups that occur on home ice. That means, that with the final change, Dion is getting put out there against the best players because the coaching staff believes in him as the most capable to shut them down.

2. The other 50% of the matchups are happening on the road. Again, with the advantage of final change, opposition coaches are putting their best players out there against Dion on purpose. Now you have to ask yourself, if you believed that Dion Phaneuf was a top D in this league, why would you constantly put your best players out against him? Would you not wait until an inferior defender was on the ice to put out your stars? No, the dude is obviously a target by opposition coaches.

So in one case, our coaches consider him the strongest possible option against the leagues best. In the other case...well, seemingly not so much. Why would Claude Julien put out his hottest line against Phaneuf if he thought he was the best D-man we've got? Oh...right, because it worked. (Game 7)

Two words: Over Rated

I stand by this. Trade Phaneuf for a young, cheap controllable player with upside as a #1D. Gives us space to sign Kadri and Franson. Sign a guy cheap like Gilbert or Hainsey to play with Gunnarsson on the second pairing, and run with Gardiner-Franson as your 1A/1B with Gunnarsson/Gilbert or Hainsey. Yes, we might take a step back, but what we could get for Phaneuf will make us better in the long run. That player, or Morgan Reilly could be the #1D we've needed for decades.

I don't hate the guy. I don't even think he is that bad at what he does. But, to sum it up, it is of my opinion that the Toronto Maple Leafs will NEVER WIN THE STANLEY CUP AS LONG AS DION PHANEUF IS OUR #1D AND CAPTAIN. So why waste any more time.

(sorry...I might have turned this into another Dion debate. I just needed to get that off my chest for the last time. I will shut up about it now.)

Heres a hole in your debate:

Whenever there is a offensive zone faceoff, RC puts the Dion pairing on. Would an opposing team then keep their best players off for an offensive zone start, just because Dion is on? No. That line is still there best option in the o-zone regardless of who the d pairing is.

Two words: poor argument

The Podium · Aug 29, 2013

Cool Hand Luke said:
I just realized something about Phaneuf and CORSI. On and on, Dion apologists use the concept of "well he faced the highest quality of competition of any D-man in the league" as being a measure of his worth.

If you think about how match-ups work (especially with RC) that scenario is achieved two ways.

1. 50% of those stats are matchups that occur on home ice. That means, that with the final change, Dion is getting put out there against the best players because the coaching staff believes in him as the most capable to shut them down.

2. The other 50% of the matchups are happening on the road. Again, with the advantage of final change, opposition coaches are putting their best players out there against Dion on purpose. Now you have to ask yourself, if you believed that Dion Phaneuf was a top D in this league, why would you constantly put your best players out against him? Would you not wait until an inferior defender was on the ice to put out your stars? No, the dude is obviously a target by opposition coaches.

So in one case, our coaches consider him the strongest possible option against the leagues best. In the other case...well, seemingly not so much. Why would Claude Julien put out his hottest line against Phaneuf if he thought he was the best D-man we've got? Oh...right, because it worked. (Game 7)

Two words: Over Rated

I stand by this. Trade Phaneuf for a young, cheap controllable player with upside as a #1D. Gives us space to sign Kadri and Franson. Sign a guy cheap like Gilbert or Hainsey to play with Gunnarsson on the second pairing, and run with Gardiner-Franson as your 1A/1B with Gunnarsson/Gilbert or Hainsey. Yes, we might take a step back, but what we could get for Phaneuf will make us better in the long run. That player, or Morgan Reilly could be the #1D we've needed for decades.

I don't hate the guy. I don't even think he is that bad at what he does. But, to sum it up, it is of my opinion that the Toronto Maple Leafs will NEVER WIN THE STANLEY CUP AS LONG AS DION PHANEUF IS OUR #1D AND CAPTAIN. So why waste any more time.

(sorry...I might have turned this into another Dion debate. I just needed to get that off my chest for the last time. I will shut up about it now.)

There is this weird new thing in hockey called line changes. I don't know if you heard of it yet but it's when the players switch mid shift. Just because Phaneuf played tough QoC against top opposing lines it doesn't mean they started their shift against him, a line change can put Phaneuf on for the end of the top opposing lines shift. Also during a defensive zone face off Carlyle would have Phaneuf out and the opposition would have their top line out regardless if Phaneuf is there.

Ricky Bobby · Aug 29, 2013

Cool Hand Luke said:
I just realized something about Phaneuf and CORSI. On and on, Dion apologists use the concept of "well he faced the highest quality of competition of any D-man in the league" as being a measure of his worth.

If you think about how match-ups work (especially with RC) that scenario is achieved two ways.

1. 50% of those stats are matchups that occur on home ice. That means, that with the final change, Dion is getting put out there against the best players because the coaching staff believes in him as the most capable to shut them down.

2. The other 50% of the matchups are happening on the road. Again, with the advantage of final change, opposition coaches are putting their best players out there against Dion on purpose. Now you have to ask yourself, if you believed that Dion Phaneuf was a top D in this league, why would you constantly put your best players out against him? Would you not wait until an inferior defender was on the ice to put out your stars? No, the dude is obviously a target by opposition coaches.

So in one case, our coaches consider him the strongest possible option against the leagues best. In the other case...well, seemingly not so much. Why would Claude Julien put out his hottest line against Phaneuf if he thought he was the best D-man we've got? Oh...right, because it worked. (Game 7)

Two words: Over Rated

I stand by this. Trade Phaneuf for a young, cheap controllable player with upside as a #1D. Gives us space to sign Kadri and Franson. Sign a guy cheap like Gilbert or Hainsey to play with Gunnarsson on the second pairing, and run with Gardiner-Franson as your 1A/1B with Gunnarsson/Gilbert or Hainsey. Yes, we might take a step back, but what we could get for Phaneuf will make us better in the long run. That player, or Morgan Reilly could be the #1D we've needed for decades.

I don't hate the guy. I don't even think he is that bad at what he does. But, to sum it up, it is of my opinion that the Toronto Maple Leafs will NEVER WIN THE STANLEY CUP AS LONG AS DION PHANEUF IS OUR #1D AND CAPTAIN. So why waste any more time.

(sorry...I might have turned this into another Dion debate. I just needed to get that off my chest for the last time. I will shut up about it now.)

Point 1: Half the games are at home so it makes a huge difference to a Corsi rating if Phaneuf is matched up against top players vs. a player like Franson whose hidden from these players by Carlyle.

Point 2: Players like Chara, Weber, Suter also have the highest CORSI ratings so wouldn't the same failed logic apply?

Phaneuf plays almost half the game and shockingly other teams top players also get the most TOI so just because Phaneuf is playing does that mean other teams won't play their top players at all?

Sometimes coaches change right after the puck is dropped to get match-ups as well on the road. So if lets say Ovi is on the ice at home and Toronto wins the draw, Phaneuf would change with the first dman coming off meaning he is being matched up against Ovi minus 5 or 10 seconds of a 45 second to 1 minute shift. Substitute the names Kessel and Chara in this example if you like.

DD03 · Aug 29, 2013

People seem to forget that the player Dion played the most against was a Hart nominee..

L Corncrick · Aug 29, 2013

There are many moments in a game when it is best vs. best because both team want to win. Cool Hand's argument doesn't hold up to reality.

BoredBrandonPridham · Aug 29, 2013

Cool Hand Luke said:
I just realized something about Phaneuf and CORSI. On and on, Dion apologists use the concept of "well he faced the highest quality of competition of any D-man in the league" as being a measure of his worth.

If you think about how match-ups work (especially with RC) that scenario is achieved two ways.

1. 50% of those stats are matchups that occur on home ice. That means, that with the final change, Dion is getting put out there against the best players because the coaching staff believes in him as the most capable to shut them down.

2. The other 50% of the matchups are happening on the road. Again, with the advantage of final change, opposition coaches are putting their best players out there against Dion on purpose. Now you have to ask yourself, if you believed that Dion Phaneuf was a top D in this league, why would you constantly put your best players out against him? Would you not wait until an inferior defender was on the ice to put out your stars? No, the dude is obviously a target by opposition coaches.

So in one case, our coaches consider him the strongest possible option against the leagues best. In the other case...well, seemingly not so much. Why would Claude Julien put out his hottest line against Phaneuf if he thought he was the best D-man we've got? Oh...right, because it worked. (Game 7)

Two words: Over Rated

I stand by this. Trade Phaneuf for a young, cheap controllable player with upside as a #1D. Gives us space to sign Kadri and Franson. Sign a guy cheap like Gilbert or Hainsey to play with Gunnarsson on the second pairing, and run with Gardiner-Franson as your 1A/1B with Gunnarsson/Gilbert or Hainsey. Yes, we might take a step back, but what we could get for Phaneuf will make us better in the long run. That player, or Morgan Reilly could be the #1D we've needed for decades.

I don't hate the guy. I don't even think he is that bad at what he does. But, to sum it up, it is of my opinion that the Toronto Maple Leafs will NEVER WIN THE STANLEY CUP AS LONG AS DION PHANEUF IS OUR #1D AND CAPTAIN. So why waste any more time.

(sorry...I might have turned this into another Dion debate. I just needed to get that off my chest for the last time. I will shut up about it now.)

Why would every coach he's evey played for play him avg 21-26 minutes per night if he was simply targeted by other team's top lines? If we traded Phaneuf for a "cheap D with #1 upside" (??), we would only hope that they become close to Phaneuf's quality. And you think that "cheap D with #1 upside" is what might lead us to the cup? I think that would be terrible asset management.

You may be right that the Leafs won't win the cup with him as our #1D and captain, but it wouldn't mean he was the problem.

Kyle Doobas* · Aug 29, 2013

MrVisser said:
Why would every coach he's evey played for play him avg 21-26 minutes per night if he was simply targeted by other team's top lines? If we traded Phaneuf for a "cheap D with #1 upside" (??), we would only hope that they become close to Phaneuf's quality. And you think that "cheap D with #1 upside" is what might lead us to the cup? I think that would be terrible asset management.

You may be right that the Leafs won't win the cup with him as our #1D and captain, but it wouldn't mean he was the problem.

No kidding. I've heard some pretty ridiculous ideas on here, but trading Phaneuf for a younger, cheaper defenseman who might become as good as Phaneuf in order to save a couple million in the short-term..? What do you do when his contract expires and you have to pay him as much as Phaneuf anyway? What if he doesn't even turn out to be as good as Phaneuf?

LEAFSIN4 · Aug 30, 2013

at the deadline we could think about trading Phaneuf depending on how our season goes, but not right now.

HeroNtF · Aug 30, 2013

If phanuef did get traded, anyone else think clarkson is the perfect candidate for captain ?

I Believe · Aug 30, 2013

HeroNtF said:
If phanuef did get traded, anyone else think clarkson is the perfect candidate for captain ?

I could see him getting an 'A' in the future. I think Lupul would probably take the C.

Warden of the North · Aug 30, 2013

HeroNtF said:
If phanuef did get traded, anyone else think clarkson is the perfect candidate for captain ?

Lupul without question. Clarkson gets his A

AustonMitchWilly · Sep 1, 2013

Marco Esquandolas said:
No kidding. I've heard some pretty ridiculous ideas on here, but trading Phaneuf for a younger, cheaper defenseman who might become as good as Phaneuf in order to save a couple million in the short-term..? What do you do when his contract expires and you have to pay him as much as Phaneuf anyway? What if he doesn't even turn out to be as good as Phaneuf?

Its not a theory of not paying someone that much ever, its about not being able to handle that contract right now.

Warden of the North · Sep 1, 2013

TmlHockeyFan said:
When does training camp start?

Rookie camp starts on Wednesday (Sept 4). Those games will be aired

Main Camp starts on Sept 9.

First pre season game Sunday Sept 15th

Kyle Doobas* · Sep 1, 2013

thainer21 said:
Its not a theory of not paying someone that much ever, its about not being able to handle that contract right now.

Yeah, let's trade one of our best players and captain to make cap room.

smitty10 · Sep 2, 2013

Not that anyone likely cares, but Ryan O'Byrne has signed with HC Lev Praha of the KHL.

WilliamNylander · Sep 2, 2013

Cool Hand Luke said:
I just realized something about Phaneuf and CORSI. On and on, Dion apologists use the concept of "well he faced the highest quality of competition of any D-man in the league" as being a measure of his worth.

If you think about how match-ups work (especially with RC) that scenario is achieved two ways.

1. 50% of those stats are matchups that occur on home ice. That means, that with the final change, Dion is getting put out there against the best players because the coaching staff believes in him as the most capable to shut them down.

2. The other 50% of the matchups are happening on the road. Again, with the advantage of final change, opposition coaches are putting their best players out there against Dion on purpose. Now you have to ask yourself, if you believed that Dion Phaneuf was a top D in this league, why would you constantly put your best players out against him? Would you not wait until an inferior defender was on the ice to put out your stars? No, the dude is obviously a target by opposition coaches.

So in one case, our coaches consider him the strongest possible option against the leagues best. In the other case...well, seemingly not so much. Why would Claude Julien put out his hottest line against Phaneuf if he thought he was the best D-man we've got? Oh...right, because it worked. (Game 7)

Two words: Over Rated

I stand by this. Trade Phaneuf for a young, cheap controllable player with upside as a #1D. Gives us space to sign Kadri and Franson. Sign a guy cheap like Gilbert or Hainsey to play with Gunnarsson on the second pairing, and run with Gardiner-Franson as your 1A/1B with Gunnarsson/Gilbert or Hainsey. Yes, we might take a step back, but what we could get for Phaneuf will make us better in the long run. That player, or Morgan Reilly could be the #1D we've needed for decades.

I don't hate the guy. I don't even think he is that bad at what he does. But, to sum it up, it is of my opinion that the Toronto Maple Leafs will NEVER WIN THE STANLEY CUP AS LONG AS DION PHANEUF IS OUR #1D AND CAPTAIN. So why waste any more time.

(sorry...I might have turned this into another Dion debate. I just needed to get that off my chest for the last time. I will shut up about it now.)

What a terrible, terrible post.

Just FYI, Tortorella (google him because after that post I doubt you even know who that is) said in an interview this year that the entire game he tried his best to keep Rick Nash away from Phaneuf. Again, in case you don't get that, a huge line matching coach keeping his best player away from our #1D. I can go on and on with more examples, but I think it would be better for you to actually take the time to watch a few leafs games instead of just thinking about those statistics.

Budsfan · Sep 2, 2013

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 2h
In opting for the one-year deal (he'd like something longer), Franson could cash in next summer (when the cap rises) with another good year.

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 2h
Frustrating process yet again for Franson, who finished t-sixth in points among NHL D in 2013. Signed hours after lockout ended last year.

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050 2h
Seems likely that Cody Franson may have no choice but to accept 1-year deal, hope for something better next summer.

blueberrie · Sep 2, 2013

I think Kulemin could be moved. Unlikely we can resign him next year and he could be replaced by a cheap 1 year UFA.

JMcLeaf · Sep 2, 2013

haayward said:
I think Kulemin could be moved. Unlikely we can resign him next year and he could be replaced by a cheap 1 year UFA.

I think there is a good chance this is his last season as a Leaf, but I highly doubt we will be able to find a cheap replacement that will have the same impact out there that Kulie does.

Warden of the North · Sep 2, 2013

I think Kulie books it to Pittsburgh next year. Pretty obvious connections there.

Perhaps a trade could be worked out before hand? Pens are always willing to deal 1st rounders.

LV* · Sep 2, 2013

blasted_Sabre said:
I think Kulie books it to Pittsburgh next year. Pretty obvious connections there.

Perhaps a trade could be worked out before hand? Pens are always willing to deal 1st rounders.

Kule for Sutter at the deadline? :naughty:

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