2010 Hall of Fame Class

[seventieslord]

This arguement can be spun back around......Gartner. I take Dino on my team every single time over Gartner

Why dont you worry about Bondra and Palffy getting in if they get in, not as an argument against Dino getting in...

You might be right about Gartner/Ciccarelli. Gartner was only marginally more dominant as a goalscorer, while Ciccarelli brought grit, net presence and a better playoff resume (if you look solely at goals, that is. PIMs and +/- are massive concerns)

Honestly I might be convinced that Ciccarelli is a better HHOFer than Gartner. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be up in arms over this one.

Still, the names I mentioned were just as dominant as Dino.

 

[Mothra]

You might be right about Gartner/Ciccarelli. Gartner was only marginally more dominant as a goalscorer, while Ciccarelli brought grit, net presence and a better playoff resume (if you look solely at goals, that is. PIMs and +/- are massive concerns)

Honestly I might be convinced that Ciccarelli is a better HHOFer than Gartner. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be up in arms over this one.

Still, the names I mentioned were just as dominant as Dino.

seriously? +/- is a "massive concern"?

how about Dino being 12th in playoff goals per game. Ahead of Brett Hull among others

...or being tied with Gretzky for 3rd all time in playoff PPGs

There are plenty of things to be "up in arms" over in this world (and in hockey). Dino in the HoF is a bit misguided

 

[Phil Parent]

But the Gartner better at goals than the Dino.

The Dino also streaky but good in playoffs no?

Then the Dino in, then the Gartner in.

 

[seventieslord]

seriously? +/- is a "massive concern"?

Absolutely; it's the second worst career playoff +/- of all-time.

 

[unknown33]

HOCKEY Hall of Fame ...

Makarov? The thing with him is that we can only base on projection what he "probably" would have done in the NHL in his prime. But based on the sample we saw, it is clear he was better than Ciccarelli and probably anyone mentioned above him

... not NHL Hall of Fame right?

9 x Soviet Scoring Champion
3 x Soviet MVP
Canada Cup 22 GP 16 G 15 A overall

 

[Mothra]

Absolutely; it's the second worst career playoff +/- of all-time.

the guy is 3rd all time in playoff PPG's and your "massive concern" is his +/-

you take yourself way too seriously

 

[jkrx]

the guy is 3rd all time in playoff PPG's and your "massive concern" is his +/-

you take yourself way too seriously

Here we go again with GPG. He was a great goal scorer and horrible defensively. Don't you realise that if you are on the ice on more goals against it kind of negates all the goals you score. It's not like he was on defensively bad teams either. He was -16 in Detroit.

Top 10 minus players on Detoit 93-96

1 Dino Ciccarelli 1993 1996 DET NHL RW 47 24 8 32 -15
2 Ray Sheppard 1993 1995 DET NHL RW 31 8 7 15 -4
3 Gerard Gallant 1993 1993 DET NHL LW 6 1 2 3 -4
4 Greg Johnson 1994 1996 DET NHL C 21 5 3 8 -4
5 Marc Bergevin 1996 1996 DET NHL D 17 1 0 1 -4
6 Tim Taylor 1995 1996 DET NHL C 24 0 5 5 -4
7 Steve Yzerman* 1993 1996 DET NHL C 43 17 26 43 -3
8 Keith Primeau 1993 1996 DET NHL C 48 5 13 18 -2
9 Terry Carkner 1994 1994 DET NHL D 7 0 0 0 -1
10 Shawn Burr 1993 1995 DET NHL LW 30 4 3 7 -1

Wouldn't you say it is pretty worrying that he leads the minus league with that much over the rest of the team?

 

[Mothra]

Here we go again with GPG. He was a great goal scorer and horrible defensively. Don't you realise that if you are on the ice on more goals against it kind of negates all the goals you score. It's not like he was on defensively bad teams either. He was -16 in Detroit.

Hmm....dont you realize he isnt getting +'s for all the PPG he scored? and that only 2 guys scored more PPGs than he did in the playoffs?

Top 10 minus players on Detoit 93-96

1 Dino Ciccarelli 1993 1996 DET NHL RW 47 24 8 32 -15
2 Ray Sheppard 1993 1995 DET NHL RW 31 8 7 15 -4
3 Gerard Gallant 1993 1993 DET NHL LW 6 1 2 3 -4
4 Greg Johnson 1994 1996 DET NHL C 21 5 3 8 -4
5 Marc Bergevin 1996 1996 DET NHL D 17 1 0 1 -4
6 Tim Taylor 1995 1996 DET NHL C 24 0 5 5 -4
7 Steve Yzerman* 1993 1996 DET NHL C 43 17 26 43 -3
8 Keith Primeau 1993 1996 DET NHL C 48 5 13 18 -2
9 Terry Carkner 1994 1994 DET NHL D 7 0 0 0 -1
10 Shawn Burr 1993 1995 DET NHL LW 30 4 3 7 -1

Wouldn't you say it is pretty worrying that he leads the minus league with that much over the rest of the team?

Yzerman a minus player....cant believe that guy eek'd into the HoF.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yzerman a minus player....cant believe that guy eek'd into the HoF.

You missed his point. His point wasn't just that Dino was a minus player. It's that he was that much worse than the rest of this team! When one guy's +/- is significantly worse than his teammates, it does raise questions. This is the correct use of +/-: Comparing it to players on the same team over a large sample size, and only paying attention to large differences. And it is noteworthy that every other player on that list was close in +/- except Dino.

(and for the record, nobody would have called Yzerman a great playoff player from 93-96).

 

[Mothra]

You missed his point. His point wasn't just that Dino was a minus player. It's that he was that much worse than the rest of this team! When one guy's +/- is significantly worse than his teammates, it does raise questions. This is the correct use of +/-: Comparing it to players on the same team over a large sample size, and only paying attention to large differences. And it is noteworthy that every other player on that list was close in +/- except Dino.

(and for the record, nobody would have called Yzerman a great playoff player from 93-96).

no, youre missing mine. Again.....its hard to impact the +/- stat with power play goals. He is 3rd all time in playoff PPGs....he lead the Wings in playoff goals (not just PP) during his time there.....but, his +/- stat is a "massive concern"

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

no, youre missing mine. Again.....its hard to impact the +/- stat with power play goals. He is 3rd all time in playoff PPGs....he lead the Wings in playoff goals (not just PP) during his time there.....but, his +/- stat is a "massive concern"

I'm missing nothing. I'm well aware that Dino was a powerplay specialist, one of the best of all time. And unlike his comparable Dave Andreychuk, Ciccarelli kept up his powerplay scoring in the playoffs.

But he was also a liability at even strength in the playoffs, and that was a concern.

 

[Mothra]

I'm missing nothing. I'm well aware that Dino was a powerplay specialist, one of the best of all time. And unlike his comparable Dave Andreychuk, Ciccarelli kept up his powerplay scoring in the playoffs.

But he was also a liability at even strength in the playoffs, and that was a concern.

clearly not too big of one.....

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

clearly not too big of one.....

Honestly, I remember Dino's lack of defense to be a big issue when he was playing. It's why he and Bowman constantly clashed and played a factor in why he was traded from the Wings.

And yes, I am aware that Bowman's speech is apparently the reason Dino got into the HOF.

 

[Big Phil]

one interesting fact to add in this matter is that Makarov outscored Dino (360 to 348) in his only 5 "full" seasons when he came over.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

this inspite being 2 years older, adjusting to a new league/coulture and past his prime.

also note that he scores almost as much as Niewendyk (386) who was right in the middle of his prime.

Didn't think of that, but yeah that is very impressive. Not that it was any contest who was the far superior player between Makarov and Dino. Would anyone take Dino in all honesty? I wouldn't.

 

[Big Phil]

... not NHL Hall of Fame right?

9 x Soviet Scoring Champion
3 x Soviet MVP
Canada Cup 22 GP 16 G 15 A overall

Nope, not in there.......yet. He gets a lot of support on here though considering a big bulk of us figure he was as good of a player as Kurri in the 1980s.