2010 Blackhawks vs 2022 Avalanche

[TheRarestDangles]

A decade in the NHL is like 45 years of advances in telecommunications.

Look how slow a 1999 team like the champion contender Buffalo sabres were. Half their players fall down trying to skate backwards and their goalie flops around like a fish.

That's the same era difference as the Hawks to the Aves.

Half the Hawks players probably didn't own smart phones to watch replays. The ipad wasn't even invented until 2016. And the Hawks had no vaccines so covid would have put them all out of action for 4 months at a time.

Advanced stats back in 2010 were limited to AE/60 and plus minus so the Aves pro scouting has a significant advantage. Not to mention MacKinnon has a the highest confirmed AE/60 of the salary cap era.

Wow all good/reasonable points. A rare logical post on HF.

 

[ZDH]

Battle of the 2 worst goalies to win the cup in my lifetime. Would be fun to see.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Battle of the 2 worst goalies to win the cup in my lifetime. Would be fun to see.

Who would win though?

 

[ZDH]

Who would win though?

Coinflip. I'll say Hawks in 7.

 

[Reparlana]

Hawks 3rd line is better, the Avs bottom pairing is better. I take Colorado's high end talent over Chicago's. Homer vote Colorado. I hope this Corey can achieve close to what that core did.

 

[Patagonia]

AVs finals was much closer due to serious injuries to Kadri, Girard, Burk, Nuke and DK. TB played exceptionally well considering their injuries, but it wouldn’t have been as close.

CHI would have been my initial choice, when healthy AVs youth and speed would overwhelm the Hawks.

 

[McJedi]

Avs in 6 but it would have been very entertaining hockey.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

it's a total toss up tbh. not sure who to vote for here

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Surprised Colorado is winning this.

- Hawks were better & deeper upfront.

- Arguably better on the backend. (Better top 4, much worse bottom pair)

- Better in net (Niemi had his moments in that run)

- More difficult opponents.

That 2010 Hawks team was the best of their 3.

 

[Volica]

Creator versus Master.

This Chicago team built the outline of what a cup winning club should look like in the modern era, deep down the middle, stars on the wing, difficult to play against, match-up nightmares, a 25 minute night defenceman that was a threat to score at any time, 3 pairings that could be matched up against anyone and not play downhill.

It's the model every franchise has started to build since then over the past decade. The Avs took this model and made it even more impressive by having two centres playing at a top centre level, elite wingers throughout the lineup, a Dman who could pick up a goal and an assist every night.

 

[cgf]

Surprised Colorado is winning this.

- Hawks were better & deeper upfront.

- Arguably better on the backend. (Better top 4, much worse bottom pair)

- Better in net (Niemi had his moments in that run)

- More difficult opponents.

That 2010 Hawks team was the best of their 3.

Were they deeper?

Big 4:
MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, Kadri
vs
Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp

Rest of Top 9:
Nichushkin, Lehkonen, Burakovsky, Compher, Newhook
vs
Byfuglien, Bolland, Versteeg, Brouwer, Ladd.

4th lines:
Cogliano - Helm - O'Connor
vs
Eager - Madden - Burish


I'd give us the clear win on the 4th line.

While Nuke & Lehky v Buff & Bolland feels like a wash; I'd take Bura, JTC & Newhook over Versteeg, Brouwer, & Ladd.

The top 4 forwards feel like more of a wash/coinflip to me than a clear win for either team.

Not so sure I'd take Keith-Seabrook & Soupy-Hammer over Toews-Makar & Girard/Byram-Manson, either...

Just looking at the rosters, I think Niemi might be the Hawks' only clear advantage.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Were they deeper?

Big 4:
MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, Kadri
vs
Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp

Rest of Top 9:
Nichushkin, Lehkonen, Burakovsky, Compher, Newhook
vs
Byfuglien, Bolland, Versteeg, Brouwer, Ladd.

4th lines:
Cogliano - Helm - O'Connor
vs
Eager - Madden - Burish


I'd give us the clear win on the 4th line.

While Nuke & Lehky v Buff & Bolland feels like a wash; I'd take Bura, JTC & Newhook over Versteeg, Brouwer, & Ladd.

The top 4 forwards feel like more of a wash/coinflip to me than a clear win for either team.

Not so sure I'd take Keith-Seabrook & Soupy-Hammer over Toews-Makar & Girard/Byram-Manson, either...

Just looking at the rosters, I think Niemi might be the Hawks' only clear advantage.

Starting at the top;

Toews won the Smythe that year, you could probably make a case for him having a bigger impact than MacKinnon, but MacKinnon is generally a better player relative to the league (than Toews was). Fair/Easy to say its a wash.

Kane & Hossa are the next best amongst this group. HHOF players & I doubt the rest are.

As far as depth;

Nichuskin vs Byfuglien is the big one. Production is similar (11g 16pts in 22 for Buff / 9g 15pts in 20 for Nuke). As a Canucks fan I'm biased towards Buff as I remember what an unstoppable force he was against us & then SJ aswell. But Nuke also had that kind of impact for the Avs as a difference maker, I'd say its a wash again.

I don't know if Bolland vs Lehky is the right comparable given Bolland was a crucial C. Probably Bolland vs Compher & Versteeg vs Lehky.

Bolland >> Compher. Bolland was a matchup nightmare for teams, went against best players in every series.

Lehky >= Versteeg. 14 pts in 20 for Lehky, 14 in 22 for Versteeg. Given Lehky was a top PP guy & scored clutch goals, I'd give him the edge.

Brouwer & Ladd vs Burakovsky & Newhook. I think Newhook is a clear 4th best.

Its a different game, what Ladd & Brouwer brought was more needed then. I think you could make a case for Burakovsky over them but its closer than Newhook. And as a third line I think Chicago's was better/more important than Colorado's.

Burakovsky
Brouwer/Ladd
-
Newhook


4th line, again its a different era. Madden was a former Selke winner. But Cogliano/Helm/O'Connor are better than Burish/Eager. I'd agree & give this to Colorado.


On the backend I'd say;
Keith =< Makar
Seabrook > Toews (more clearly)

2nd pair i'd take Campbell over Girard. Hjalmarrsson vs Manson is prob a wash.
Byram is hard to rate given he took the role in relief & his play elevated to a different level by the end.


I guess it depends what we are comparing - rosters on paper vs the team's run - but I do think Chicago had a significantly tougher road.

2010 Nashville was much better than 2022 - Weber, Suter, Hamhuis, Rinne in their prime.
Vancouver had a Selke finalist (Kesler), the Hart winner (Henrik), & 3 HHOFers in the Twins + Lu.
Sharks were a top contenders in the West every year at that point with both great depth & high end players (Thornton/Marleau/Heatley/Boyle).

In the final Tampa was a tougher opponent than Philly given back-to-back champs, tho they had lost alot of depth from previous years & were going on fumes by the end, a shell of their former selves.

Philly to their credit were a great team that really lacked goaltending, look at their roster tho; Pronger, Timonen, Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Gagne. Nothing to sneeze at.

 

[ER89]

Their blueline was ridiculously stacked and they had great depth behind their big 4 forwards (Kane, Toews, Hossa, & Sharp)...but they look more stacked than they were because a lot of that depth was just depth at that time. Your Ladd's & Byfuglien's weren't yet the stars they would later go on to become.

Kinda like if Newhook goes on to become a 70+ pt player and people start talking about these avs as having stars even on their third line. Newhook could go on to become a star as soon as next season, but for this run, he was "just depth".

That's a pretty good point that I hadn't considered.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Flip a coin. Both were awesome and had leaky goaltending.

The 2022 Avs were easily one of the fastest teams in league history, the Hawks would need to adjust to that.

 

[EverTheCynic]

Delete

 

[cgf]

Starting at the top;

Toews won the Smythe that year, you could probably make a case for him having a bigger impact than MacKinnon, but MacKinnon is generally a better player relative to the league (than Toews was). Fair/Easy to say its a wash.

Kane & Hossa are the next best amongst this group. HHOF players & I doubt the rest are.

As far as depth;

Nichuskin vs Byfuglien is the big one. Production is similar (11g 16pts in 22 for Buff / 9g 15pts in 20 for Nuke). As a Canucks fan I'm biased towards Buff as I remember what an unstoppable force he was against us & then SJ aswell. But Nuke also had that kind of impact for the Avs as a difference maker, I'd say its a wash again.

I don't know if Bolland vs Lehky is the right comparable given Bolland was a crucial C. Probably Bolland vs Compher & Versteeg vs Lehky.

Bolland >> Compher. Bolland was a matchup nightmare for teams, went against best players in every series.

Lehky >= Versteeg. 14 pts in 20 for Lehky, 14 in 22 for Versteeg. Given Lehky was a top PP guy & scored clutch goals, I'd give him the edge.

Brouwer & Ladd vs Burakovsky & Newhook. I think Newhook is a clear 4th best.

Its a different game, what Ladd & Brouwer brought was more needed then. I think you could make a case for Burakovsky over them but its closer than Newhook. And as a third line I think Chicago's was better/more important than Colorado's.

Burakovsky
Brouwer/Ladd
-
Newhook


4th line, again its a different era. Madden was a former Selke winner. But Cogliano/Helm/O'Connor are better than Burish/Eager. I'd agree & give this to Colorado.


On the backend I'd say;
Keith =< Makar
Seabrook > Toews (more clearly)

2nd pair i'd take Campbell over Girard. Hjalmarrsson vs Manson is prob a wash.
Byram is hard to rate given he took the role in relief & his play elevated to a different level by the end.


I guess it depends what we are comparing - rosters on paper vs the team's run - but I do think Chicago had a significantly tougher road.

2010 Nashville was much better than 2022 - Weber, Suter, Hamhuis, Rinne in their prime.
Vancouver had a Selke finalist (Kesler), the Hart winner (Henrik), & 3 HHOFers in the Twins + Lu.
Sharks were a top contenders in the West every year at that point with both great depth & high end players (Thornton/Marleau/Heatley/Boyle).

In the final Tampa was a tougher opponent than Philly given back-to-back champs, tho they had lost alot of depth from previous years & were going on fumes by the end, a shell of their former selves.

Philly to their credit were a great team that really lacked goaltending, look at their roster tho; Pronger, Timonen, Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Gagne. Nothing to sneeze at.

I was looking more at their impact than specific roles since the teams' talent was distributed a little differently. That's why I have Bolland ahead of Brouwer, despite not playing in their top 6, for the Hawks, but have both Lekhonen & Burakovsky ahead of Compher for the Avs...Lehky for his excellent two-way play & Burakovsky for his clutch scoring.

Nichushkin & Byfuglien lining up with one another as each team's most important non-big-4 forward, was just a happy coincidence that hammers home how similar these two teams were on the ice...at least to me...


And I just don't see meaningful gaps between any of the groupings other than the 4th line, 3rd pairing, and goaltending...with the first two being clearly in Colorado's favor and the third clearly in Chicago's. The Hawks certainly had a tougher path, but that doesn't really change how well each team was playing on the ice.


This is a good debate and depending on how you set the criteria could tip it in either team's favor, but I don't think the case is there for the hawks being deeper up front in any significant way. Maybe deeper down the middle, but the Hawks' 4th line just wasn't anywhere near as effective as Colorado's, and I struggle to make an overwhelming case either way with the top 9s.


It's certainly tricky to compare Soupy with Girard/Byram because of the injury...but if we look at what the Avs were getting from Girard in that role until he got hurt, and then what they got from Byram in that role after Girard got hurt; there's a case to be made that the Avs got even better performances out of their #3 than did Chicago.

Similarly, Keith v Makar gets very tricky, especially if we add in their awards like you did with Toews-MacKinnon...and adding in their awards would certainly muddy the Toews v Seabrook discussion as well, given Toews' Norris placement.

That's why...at least to me...the top 4s as a unit, feel like a wash/coinflip. We can bicker about how one piece compares to the corresponding piece on the other team, but on the whole, both units were just unreal and simply dominated the action for long stretches.


Additionally, I don't think it's much of a stretch to project Mikko to make the HOF. Even if neither Landeskog or Kadri ends up joining him, Rantanen is well on his way already...especially since his game should age well.

Though I wouldn't be shocked if Landy does make it into the HOF if we win another cup; youngest ever at the time he got the C, captain for (at least) 2 cup winners at that point, well respected & recognized two-way game, and he should end up with solid pt totals even though he doesn't have the kind of peak production that a Hossa did.

Also, don't tell my cousin's husband (who I love) this...he's slovakian & Hossa is still his favorite player of all time...but I'm not sure that Kadri should be behind Hossa or Sharp given the form each was in that season. Hossa was certainly better for longer; having both the better career and higher multi-year peak.

...but 2021-2022 Kadri vs 2009-2010 Hossa? That gets really close & I think the objective pick might even be career-year-Naz...though I'd probably give it to the big slovak anyway; if only because I like him more. But again this just makes me feel like there wasn't a decisive gap in the top 4s/9s, either way.

 

[cgf]

That's a pretty good point that I hadn't considered.

As an Avs fan who has spent much of his life in Chicago and used those Hawks' teams to get some of my friends into hockey, I had a lot of fun watching them...especially after our season would end

 

[wetcoast]

People forget how deep the 2010 Blackhawks were.

This was my first thought and even with Cal Makar the Black Hawks defensive depth probably made them the better blue line.

It would be a pickem IMO.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm a Hawks fan and in this matchup, the weakness of the Sopel-Boynton pairing would make me really nervous in this matchup.

The Hawks dominance also coincided with a mini DPE so I wonder how much scoring being down from 2010-2015 helped them.

Boyton played 3 games and averaged 8:25 MPG and Sopel was actually decent in the playoffs that year.

 

[CanadienShark]

A decade in the NHL is like 45 years of advances in telecommunications.

Look how slow a 1999 team like the champion contender Buffalo sabres were. Half their players fall down trying to skate backwards and their goalie flops around like a fish.

That's the same era difference as the Hawks to the Aves.

Half the Hawks players probably didn't own smart phones to watch replays. The ipad wasn't even invented until 2016. And the Hawks had no vaccines so covid would have put them all out of action for 4 months at a time.

Advanced stats back in 2010 were limited to AE/60 and plus minus so the Aves pro scouting has a significant advantage. Not to mention MacKinnon has a the highest confirmed AE/60 of the salary cap era.

iPad was 2010. Are you thinking Apple Watch? That was 2015.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

What a thread

 

[HockeyWooot]

This a great poll.

In terms of roster relevant to the period I’d give it to the Hawks, but unadjusted for the skill/speed component of the game 10 years later I think it’s gotta be the Avs?

2010 Hawks were absolutely stacked, but I don’t think it’s a greater advantage to the broader changes in the speed of the current game let alone the fastest team of todays bunch.

That it’s a close debate is a huge testament to that Hawks team.

 

[HockeyWooot]

Were they deeper?

Big 4:
MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, Kadri
vs
Kane, Toews, Hossa, Sharp

Rest of Top 9:
Nichushkin, Lehkonen, Burakovsky, Compher, Newhook
vs
Byfuglien, Bolland, Versteeg, Brouwer, Ladd.

4th lines:
Cogliano - Helm - O'Connor
vs
Eager - Madden - Burish


I'd give us the clear win on the 4th line.

While Nuke & Lehky v Buff & Bolland feels like a wash; I'd take Bura, JTC & Newhook over Versteeg, Brouwer, & Ladd.

The top 4 forwards feel like more of a wash/coinflip to me than a clear win for either team.

Not so sure I'd take Keith-Seabrook & Soupy-Hammer over Toews-Makar & Girard/Byram-Manson, either...

Just looking at the rosters, I think Niemi might be the Hawks' only clear advantage.

Good assessment.

I think Top 4 forwards is a wash. Kane imo is the best game breaker of the bunch he’d routinely take over games, whereas the Avs have a greater amount of skill combined with physicality/grit.

Rest of top 9 is even. I would take Avs crew collectively by a hair, but Byfuglien is the best of the bunch. He was a force all playoffs and teams had no answer for him, in an era more physical than the current one. Not a knock on Nuke and the Avs group who were great, would not have won the cup without them stepping up.

In terms of D corps personnel wise it’s pretty even. Slight edge to the Hawks top 4 collective, whereas Avs easily have better depth. However the mobility and transition game of the Avs dcorps is a huge advantage.

Also Makar is not only a Norris caliber but is a game breaker from the back end, and arguably their best player. Edge Avs.

Goalies are a wash, maybe slight edge to Niemi.

Xfactors: Kane, Byfuglien, deep ELC talent
XFactors: Makar, mobile D, transition/team speed

I guess it comes down to which team can neutralize the other teams Xfactors more than the other?

 

[mapleleafslaughssame]

Their blueline was ridiculously stacked and they had great depth behind their big 4 forwards (Kane, Toews, Hossa, & Sharp)...but they look more stacked than they were because a lot of that depth was just depth at that time. Your Ladd's & Byfuglien's weren't yet the stars they would later go on to become.

Kinda like if Newhook goes on to become a 70+ pt player and people start talking about these avs as having stars even on their third line. Newhook could go on to become a star as soon as next season, but for this run, he was "just depth".

Ya but even before a player breaks out they can still be solid contributors and show flashes of their potential often it’s just playing time and a bigger role why they breakout and most of those players were in a perfect role like Bolland, Versteeg etc.

It’s a tough choice but I think I would take Chicago by a lil bit. I feel they had a slightly better team.

 

[keglu]

Starting at the top;

Toews won the Smythe that year, you could probably make a case for him having a bigger impact than MacKinnon, but MacKinnon is generally a better player relative to the league (than Toews was). Fair/Easy to say its a wash.

Kane & Hossa are the next best amongst this group. HHOF players & I doubt the rest are.

Players carrer achievements are not important when we are comparing specific year performance.

PPG among players wiith minimum 50 games played
Kane -14
Toews - 28
Hossa - 29
Sharp - 51

Avs
Mackinnon - 6
Rantanen - 14
Kadri - 15
Landeskog - 22