GDT: 160213 Coyotes @ Sharks 7:30pm CSNCA

[Alwalys]

• Two points is two points though. Same points as if they destroyed the Yotes.

I know you have an agenda, but they destroyed the Yotes. The Yotes barely threatened all night.

We're constantly worried about Marleau and Thornton falling off completely just due to their ages but Pavelski's kind of one of those guys who has always had a pretty limited set of physical tools. Wouldn't be a total shocker if he fell off early and hard.

Any concern can't be based on what we are seeing from Pavs. He's just missing on these plays, but he's still in position, making the right play, and getting the opportunities. He's just fanning on passes, whiffing on bounces, etc. That stuff isn't as concerning as if he stopped being able to make the right plays.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

We're constantly worried about Marleau and Thornton falling off completely just due to their ages but Pavelski's kind of one of those guys who has always had a pretty limited set of physical tools. Wouldn't be a total shocker if he fell off early and hard.

I don't think a lot of people are worried about Thornton. Marleau may become largely ineffective when he slows down, but he'll still be elite on the PP.

Pavs skillset should keep him in the NHL in some capacity until he is 35-36. After that it's a crap shoot because he will be by far the slowest player in the NHL if he is still there (he's semi-close to it now, there are still a few "defensive defensemen" around that can't skate or make the first pass)

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Pavelski will get hot again.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Marleau's struggling, but it isn't the typical physical deterioration I would have expected. He's still very fast.

But his shot has become less dangerous, and his hockey IQ has tanked. Part of that is the move to center, but he was showing signs last year. Reminds me a lot of his 2008 season.

 

[hockeyball]

Marleau's struggling, but it isn't the typical physical deterioration I would have expected. He's still very fast.

But his shot has become less dangerous, and his hockey IQ has tanked. Part of that is the move to center, but he was showing signs last year. Reminds me a lot of his 2008 season.

Honestly, I think his head simply isn't in the game. I think he doesn't want to be here anymore and is irritated he hasn't been traded yet.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Marleau has been playing really good hockey tge past week. He set up Ward like 5 times against Calgary, and scored a goal.

He struggled for a while, but seems on track now.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

He's streaky, but he certainly isn't using his speed as much as the past.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Honestly, I think his head simply isn't in the game. I think he doesn't want to be here anymore and is irritated he hasn't been traded yet.

I don't know where you get that when he's scored twice in the past three games and has set up plenty of opportunities to score. He's just not in a situation at even strength to produce well. His linemates aren't great for that and they're given difficult minutes. His game is fine.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I don't know where you get that when he's scored twice in the past three games and has set up plenty of opportunities to score. He's just not in a situation at even strength to produce well. His linemates aren't great for that and they're given difficult minutes. His game is fine.

Therein lies the problem with Marleau. Considering the money, ice time, and position he has commanded, he's never been a player who can carry a line by himself.

 

[Timos Death Stare]

Therein lies the problem with Marleau. Considering the money, ice time, and position he has commanded, he's never been a player who can carry a line by himself.

Put Nieto and Ward on jts line and I don't think JT does much different than Marleau. I'd venture he does worse actually.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Put Nieto and Ward on jts line and I don't think JT does much different than Marleau. I'd venture he does worse actually.

Maybe, but you'd also have to give Thornton third-line competition, and have two other lines above him clearing a path forwards.

In any case, even with good, complimentary linemates, Thornton has always been the straw that stirs the drink of his line (and the first PP)...much to the detriment of the team come the playoffs. Marleau, since having Michalek and Bernier on his wings for a brief stretch in 2006, can't claim the same.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Put Nieto and Ward on jts line and I don't think JT does much different than Marleau. I'd venture he does worse actually.

That's ridiculous. Thornton would find a way to put up a lot of points with those guys. Ward would probably score 25-30 goals honestly, lol.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Maybe, but you'd also have to give Thornton third-line competition, and have two other lines above him clearing a path forwards.

In any case, even with good, complimentary linemates, Thornton has always been the straw that stirs the drink of his line (and the first PP)...much to the detriment of the team come the playoffs. Marleau, since having Michalek and Bernier on his wings for a brief stretch in 2006, can't claim the same.

Which defeats the purpose of the comparison. Thornton generally has gotten the benefit of having a manager attempt to build around him. Marleau, not so much.

 

[Limekiller]

Which defeats the purpose of the comparison. Thornton generally has gotten the benefit of having a manager attempt to build around him. Marleau, not so much.

That could be something as simple as the coaching staff not thinking he has the right skillset to build around him, and that he's much better as a complimentary piece instead. Much as I like Marleau, I think I tend to agree with that point of view.

 

[do0glas]

Which defeats the purpose of the comparison. Thornton generally has gotten the benefit of having a manager attempt to build around him. Marleau, not so much.

Thornton got the benefit because he earned it. To suggest otherwise would be extremely biased. You don't build around a 70 point forward.

 

[Timos Death Stare]

That's ridiculous. Thornton would find a way to put up a lot of points with those guys. Ward would probably score 25-30 goals honestly, lol.

You kidding me? Thornton relies on people who can finish. Ward is more of a "clean up the garbage" scorer and a grinder, and Nieto has yet to show he is a consistent scorer.

Thornton is great, but he still relies on good players. It's far from a ridiculous statement - every time Thornton has been paired with mediocre linemates he's done predictably mediocre. Do you know why? Because they're mediocre!

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Thornton got the benefit because he earned it. To suggest otherwise would be extremely biased. You don't build around a 70 point forward.

Which isn't really relevant to the comparison and in any case, we are building around a 70 point forward. lol

 

[do0glas]

Which isn't really relevant to the comparison and in any case, we are building around a 70 point forward. lol

In what way? Hertl couldn't score with marleau, neither can pavs but they can with jumbo. So he gets them. Pavs wasn't drafted to be with jumbo. Only heatley was traded for with jumbo in mind really. Just so happened that a lot of players play well with jumbo. Elite players typically do that, marleau doesn't. Not to mention that marleau spent a ton of time with jumbo and had his best offensive output 5v5 there as well.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

In what way? Hertl couldn't score with marleau, neither can pavs but they can with jumbo. So he gets them. Pavs wasn't drafted to be with jumbo. Only heatley was traded for with jumbo in mind really. Just so happened that a lot of players play well with jumbo. Elite players typically do that, marleau doesn't. Not to mention that marleau spent a ton of time with jumbo and had his best offensive output 5v5 there as well.

Hertl and Pavs with Marleau is a fairly small sample size to make such a definitive statement. Pavs may not have been drafted to be with Thornton but roster decisions are made to make it where he is put up there since that is the intention of the manager anyway. However, putting two players around one guy doesn't mean that you can't do the same for another on your team. It's just something that didn't happen this year because Couture went down and they changed plans to have a 2nd line built around Marleau mid-season over Couture. But still, those things aren't really relevant to the comparison.

Thornton is the straw that stirs the drink on his line that is built to his skills and given mostly secondary level competition. Marleau is obviously not in the same situation because he is facing top competition, he isn't getting ideal linemates based on his skills, and there wasn't really any thought to doing that because of Couture's injury and the change in plans. People should already by now that Marleau isn't some great playmaker so why is he up to that standard?

Oh, and Thornton is still a 70 point forward so we're still building around that anyway so I don't know why you bothered to say something like that.

 

[do0glas]

Hertl and Pavs with Marleau is a fairly small sample size to make such a definitive statement. Pavs may not have been drafted to be with Thornton but roster decisions are made to make it where he is put up there since that is the intention of the manager anyway. However, putting two players around one guy doesn't mean that you can't do the same for another on your team. It's just something that didn't happen this year because Couture went down and they changed plans to have a 2nd line built around Marleau mid-season over Couture. But still, those things aren't really relevant to the comparison.

Thornton is the straw that stirs the drink on his line that is built to his skills and given mostly secondary level competition. Marleau is obviously not in the same situation because he is facing top competition, he isn't getting ideal linemates based on his skills, and there wasn't really any thought to doing that because of Couture's injury and the change in plans. People should already by now that Marleau isn't some great playmaker so why is he up to that standard?

Oh, and Thornton is still a 70 point forward so we're still building around that anyway so I don't know why you bothered to say something like that.

In what way this year are we "building" around jumbo? Just because a couple of players score more with him doesn't mean we are building around him. You could say we built marleau a defensive line because the offensive payoff doesn't touch a jumbo line. Goes both ways.

If you want to say we are STILL building around jumbo that's both an indictment of marleau and our drafting over the past 8 years

You could give marleau a playmaker and it probably wouldn't touch a jumbo built line. So who do you build around lol. Also you'd be surprised at how little the qoc between the two differs. It's a weak argument. Jumbo is a franchise player marleau isn't. He is and was always just a complement on his line.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

In what way this year are we "building" around jumbo? Just because a couple of players score more with him doesn't mean we are building around him. You could say we built marleau a defensive line because the offensive payoff doesn't touch a jumbo line. Goes both ways.

If you want to say we are STILL building around jumbo that's both an indictment of marleau and our drafting over the past 8 years

You could give marleau a playmaker and it probably wouldn't touch a jumbo built line. So who do you build around lol. Also you'd be surprised at how little the qoc between the two differs. It's a weak argument. Jumbo is a franchise player marleau isn't. He is and was always just a complement on his line.

The team is still built around Thornton. That doesn't change whether or not they made any moves this past off-season towards that end. At a certain point, they made moves to basically keep Pavs at Jumbo's wing. On three different occasions, they did something with Burns to mostly play with Jumbo. Hell, Hertl's move to their wing is at the very least delaying his development to improve Jumbo and his line.

There is absolutely no way you could really say that they were building around Marleau. The second line was built around Couture and Marleau happened to be the complimentary piece to begin with. You give Couture and Marleau a playmaker that is a player of similar quality to them and given the same level of competition and zone starts, I'm sure they'd have similar production. A big part of the difference is how the two lines are used and I don't think people take that into account very much.

Hell, the argument is about who to build around. And that argument is silly because you should be able to build around two forwards on two different lines fairly easily. The argument is how they'd work if given the same type of assignments. Jumbo would suffer significantly centering what Marleau centers in the minutes and zone starts he's given.

 

[Barrie22]

Quality of competition stats i always can never figure out. What is the meaning behind the pluses and minuses?

Is it if someone has a plus they face easier competition? Or is it if someone has a minus they face easier competition?

 

[hohosaregood]

Quality of competition stats i always can never figure out. What is the meaning behind the pluses and minuses?

Is it if someone has a plus they face easier competition? Or is it if someone has a minus they face easier competition?

Higher the number means the tougher the competition but apparently quality of competition is kind of an obsolete statistic.

 

[Barrie22]

Higher the number means the tougher the competition but apparently quality of competition is kind of an obsolete statistic.

So thornton faces the tougher competition.