100 Greatest NHL players

[Masao]

Becoming? I think we are WAY beyond that point.

Those two have been pimping guy and ragging on Gretzky for a few months now and we are STILL waiting for their first rational point. I get this mental image of these two sitting in a fort together staring at pictures of guy, b1tching about Gretzky and pining over Darla together. The Guy-man Gretzky-haters.

I'm just wondering why anyone would hate Gretzky. The guy was not only a joy to watch because of his incredible skills, but he was also one of the classiest and gentlemanly player in the game.

He may have been the best ever, or maybe a couple of players were better than him (up for huge debate of course), but instead of bashing him (or others like Mario), why can't we just appreciate what they've accomplished, the memories they gave us and the benefits they gave to the game we love? Players of that quality are a gift not only to their team but to all of hockey and its fans. Shouldn't we be thankful for having such gifts to admire for decades instead of *****ing about them and comparing them like as they were computer processors?

 

[#66]

I'm just wondering why anyone would hate Gretzky. The guy was not only a joy to watch because of his incredible skills, but he was also one of the classiest and gentlemanly player in the game.

He may have been the best ever, or maybe a couple of players were better than him (up for huge debate of course), but instead of bashing him (or others like Mario), why can't we just appreciate what they've accomplished, the memories they gave us and the benefits they gave to the game we love? Players of that quality are a gift not only to their team but to all of hockey and its fans. Shouldn't we be thankful for having such gifts to admire for decades instead of *****ing about them and comparing them like as they were computer processors?

Its about time someone has said it. Its a shame that some threads have been ruined by a fight that I don't even think is about hockey anymore. Can a Mod do something, anything???

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Yes. Wayne NEVER dominated a finals...

And the greatest hockey team ever assembled had nothing to do with Guy's cups.. He was alone...

You and Chooch are honestly becoming jokes with this crap...

Nothing new, you trying to change the subject again. Guy was the reason the habs won the cup in 77 because he was in on all of his team's goals in the final 3 games of that series. But all you have to say is he was on the greatest team ever bla bla bla and not give absolutely NOO credit to Guy. I'm not a gretzky hater... you guys are lafleur haters.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Nothing new, you trying to change the subject again. Guy was the reason the habs won the cup in 77 because he was in on all of his team's goals in the final 3 games of that series. But all you have to say is he was on the greatest team ever bla bla bla and not give absolutely NOO credit to Guy. I'm not a gretzky hater... you guys are lafleur haters.

We aren't Lafleur haters.. We like Guy. He was a great player. We dislike the fact that you try and say he was as good or better than Gretzky, that's all...

 

[JCD]

Nothing new, you trying to change the subject again. Guy was the reason the habs won the cup in 77 because he was in on all of his team's goals in the final 3 games of that series. But all you have to say is he was on the greatest team ever bla bla bla and not give absolutely NOO credit to Guy. I'm not a gretzky hater... you guys are lafleur haters.

Believe it or not, you can actually give credit to Guy without ripping on Wayne. Might be a new concept for you, but I swear it is true.

For the record, I don't see a single Guy hater here. Can't say the same about Wayne-haters. Heck, you even got Mario-lovers calling you whacked.

 

[Playmaker]

A) Who is the loon trying to prove Gretzky was a sissy because he didn't get loads of PIM's? Getting loads of PIMs is maybe a testament to being tough, but certainly not a testament to intelligence.

B) Gretzky was not so good because he had a bodyguard? Chris Simon and Peter Forsberg, anyone? With Simon as a bodyguard, Forsberg was great, and really suffered when Simon left the Avs. And who would be dumb enough to say Peter isn't/wasn't a great player because he had a bodyguard? Lots of stars have a bodyguard...

C) If anything, I think Gretzky's amount of assists says more about his claim to being the best player ever than anything else. The dude has more assists than anyone else has points!

 

[snuffelapagus]

Hart Runners Up

I did not see the list of all-time Hart Trophy runners up. Could someone kindly post it or point me to it?

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Believe it or not, you can actually give credit to Guy without ripping on Wayne. Might be a new concept for you, but I swear it is true.

For the record, I don't see a single Guy hater here. Can't say the same about Wayne-haters. Heck, you even got Mario-lovers calling you whacked.

Ok now that things have calmed down and I dont feel like arguing anymore this is what I gotta say.

I'm sorry if I made it sound like I thought Gretzky was simply great nothing more. That's not what I wanted to say. So to clear things out. I think Gretzky was an incredible player, certainly top 5. He had great vision, great anticipation, great hockey sense and earned the name the great one.

Now what I was mad about is someone (dont know if it was you) saying Lafleur is a disgrace comparing to Gretzky. How would you react if I said Gretzky is a disgrace compared to Lafleur? You wouldn't be too happy obviously. Not trying to put blame on you or anyone else just trying to clear things up.

I may have gone overboard so I apologize. Now I kindly ask you this and would love an honest answer.

1- What do you think of Guy Lafleur and how high would you rank him.

2- What if Guy Lafleur hadnt had an accident in his prime that nearly killed him, didnt smoke 2 packs a day that really slowed him down, being surrounded by great players after 81 and not had a coach like Lemaire who was playing a defensive style and rarely letting Lafleur play. What would Guy have been?

I know that the 2nd question is a what if and theres no real answer but I would love it if you at least leave a predicition of what he could have become. Thanks and again sorry for going overboard about Wayne and all.

 

[norrisnick]

1. Probably top 10.
2. What if Wayne was never traded and the Oiler dynasty was kept intact? Hypotheticals are murky things.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Ok now that things have calmed down and I dont feel like arguing anymore this is what I gotta say.

I'm sorry if I made it sound like I thought Gretzky was simply great nothing more. That's not what I wanted to say. So to clear things out. I think Gretzky was an incredible player, certainly top 5. He had great vision, great anticipation, great hockey sense and earned the name the great one.

Now what I was mad about is someone (dont know if it was you) saying Lafleur is a disgrace comparing to Gretzky. How would you react if I said Gretzky is a disgrace compared to Lafleur? You wouldn't be too happy obviously. Not trying to put blame on you or anyone else just trying to clear things up.

I may have gone overboard so I apologize. Now I kindly ask you this and would love an honest answer.

1- What do you think of Guy Lafleur and how high would you rank him.

2- What if Guy Lafleur hadnt had an accident in his prime that nearly killed him, didnt smoke 2 packs a day that really slowed him down, being surrounded by great players after 81 and not had a coach like Lemaire who was playing a defensive style and rarely letting Lafleur play. What would Guy have been?

I know that the 2nd question is a what if and theres no real answer but I would love it if you at least leave a predicition of what he could have become. Thanks and again sorry for going overboard about Wayne and all.

While I can appreciate your sentiments, I tihnk saying Gretzky is a disgrace compared to Lafleur is very different then if you said it the other way around.

As for the questions though...

1. Top 10 I would say. He's in that second bracket for me. First bracket is Orr, Gretzky and Mario while everyone else falls below... They were on another level.

2. Hard to say. That's like asking how good Wayne would have been if Suter had never cheapshotted him. To me, he's on an entirely different level and if he hadn't been hurt, nobody would ever question his position as best ever. The difference between him and everyone else is that, while they dominated the game physically, he dominated the game mentally and that is far more dangerous...

I won't make excuses for the man though. His career was what it was. Just like Guy's. Whether he smoked, drove drunk or ate pure crack cocaine before every game it doesn't matter. I things had gone PERFECT for him though, I still think he wouldn't crack the top three anyway since each of them had their own troubles too.

 

[JCD]

Ok now that things have calmed down and I dont feel like arguing anymore this is what I gotta say.

I'm sorry if I made it sound like I thought Gretzky was simply great nothing more. That's not what I wanted to say. So to clear things out. I think Gretzky was an incredible player, certainly top 5. He had great vision, great anticipation, great hockey sense and earned the name the great one.

Now what I was mad about is someone (dont know if it was you) saying Lafleur is a disgrace comparing to Gretzky. How would you react if I said Gretzky is a disgrace compared to Lafleur? You wouldn't be too happy obviously. Not trying to put blame on you or anyone else just trying to clear things up.

I may have gone overboard so I apologize. Now I kindly ask you this and would love an honest answer.

1- What do you think of Guy Lafleur and how high would you rank him.

2- What if Guy Lafleur hadnt had an accident in his prime that nearly killed him, didnt smoke 2 packs a day that really slowed him down, being surrounded by great players after 81 and not had a coach like Lemaire who was playing a defensive style and rarely letting Lafleur play. What would Guy have been?

I know that the 2nd question is a what if and theres no real answer but I would love it if you at least leave a predicition of what he could have become. Thanks and again sorry for going overboard about Wayne and all.

1) Top-10, though it is a bit grey. He was a dominant player. Just not at the plateau that Orr, Howe, Gretzky and Mario were.

2) You can play the 'what if' games for anybody, so I really give them no weight. What if Wayne were 6'2 and 210 pounds? What if Wayne didn't get cheapshotted by Suter? What if the Oilers never sold Wayne? What if Mario treated hockey like a passion and not a job? What if Mario stayed healthy? What if Orr had perfect knees? What if Lafleur didn't play on the most dominant team in NHL history? What if lafleur was traded to the Kings in his prime?

When calling Wayne the best, you don't need to conditionalize it with "what if's". Had he stayed healthy, I still don't think he can close the gap. What Wayne did was mindboggling. On and off the ice.

 

[chooch*]

1) Top-10, though it is a bit grey. He was a dominant player. Just not at the plateau that Orr, Howe, Gretzky and Mario were.

2) You can play the 'what if' games for anybody, so I really give them no weight. What if Wayne were 6'2 and 210 pounds? What if Wayne didn't get cheapshotted by Suter? What if the Oilers never sold Wayne? What if Mario treated hockey like a passion and not a job? What if Mario stayed healthy? What if Orr had perfect knees? What if Lafleur didn't play on the most dominant team in NHL history? What if lafleur was traded to the Kings in his prime?

When calling Wayne the best, you don't need to conditionalize it with "what if's". Had he stayed healthy, I still don't think he can close the gap. What Wayne did was mindboggling. On and off the ice.

Let me say I think 99 was the 2nd best offensive player of his generation. And thats saying something given that Mario was around. And he was just as classy as Mario or Guy or Bobby Orr.

99's career was played in a run and gun division that was very weak. No one was allowed to slash or hit him (remember Billy Smith tried and what happened?) It wasnt the tough slogging East where men are men. Thats perhaps why Shutts 428 goals get him an HoF and Andersons 498 are going to keep him out.

These aren't what-ifs: Its the Truth as many people see it. And its ok to criticize 99 as its ok to do the same thing with Lafleur who in my mind was a more clutch and dangerous player (the most "goal dangerous player I ever saw" according to Sinden who had Orr). I shudder to think what numbers Lafleur would have put up if he had been a King for his career and had no defensive responsibilities like Dionne and didnt play many playoff games like Dionne.

ps. Without protection, Suters hit would have happened in 1979 and with protection Boutette never would have hit Flower in 1980.

Not trying to rile u guys up so dont attack the poster.

 

[mcphee]

Do situations make the player or do players make the situation ? Did Lemaire shorten Lafleur's effective career thru whatever or was it time for reasons that only Guy is aware of. I think that if we already have opinions, no posters going to change them here. Of all the things I've seen watching hockey, Lafleur's development and excellence ranks right up there. I'll argue that he was the key player in making what I think was the best team of all time what they were. I just can't put him on par with the 3 who I think were the best ever. #'s 99,66, and 4 lapped the field. I know I've said it this way before, but those 3 just took things to another level. Take any of what you'd consider the top 10 and with the exception of Howe, you could create circumstances for how they could have accomplished more, whether it be health,coaching linemates, it doesn't matter.

 

[JCD]

Let me say I think 99 was the 2nd best offensive player of his generation...

When you open up with a statement like that, everything else becomes pointless.

99 WAS the best offensive player of his generation. Period. End of story.

Who has more points? More goals? More assists? Career or single season?

 

[chooch*]

When you open up with a statement like that, everything else becomes pointless.

99 WAS the best offensive player of his generation. Period. End of story.

Who has more points? More goals? More assists? Career or single season?

Gartner has 700 goals and Dino 600.

Stats are just that especially for 80's players.

You'll always rely purely on stats so there's no point and you'll miss the compliment in being called the second best offensive player of his generation after Mario, from someone who actually saw all of the 1980's. I could have said third after Bossy also. Bossy played in a tougher division night after night and against tough checking that ultimatley ended his career.

So consider 2nd best a compliment.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

Gartner has 700 goals and Dino 600.

Stats are just that especially for 80's players.

You'll always rely purely on stats so there's no point and you'll miss the compliment in being called the second best offensive player of his generation after Mario, from someone who actually saw all of the 1980's. I could have said third after Bossy also. Bossy played in a tougher division night after night and against tough checking that ultimatley ended his career.

So consider 2nd best a compliment.

Wayne also owns the greatest PPG of all-time... Even more impressive is the fact that he played far more games than Mario past his prime which should have dwindled his PPG number yet he's still on top...

Tough checking East? The Penguins played in hockey's worst division. THat being said Mario was a great player. Consider 2nd best a compliment for him as well.

 

[Trottier]

Stats are just that especially for 80's players.

You know, I agree with that statement. And the extent to which numbers are relied upon by many of today's modern sports fan's is unnerving. For example, evaluating a HOF candidate strictly on his numbers. Very superficial (and lazy, for that matter).

That said, on infrequent occasions, numbers do help tell a story about an individual. As in, when his numbers are so ridiculously above and beyond that of his peers.

Babe Ruth hitting 60 home runs in a time in baseball when guys weren't hitting 20 in a season is one example. Tiger Woods winning the '97 Masters by 12 strokes(!) told us something about that player's special ability, which has since been validated repeatedly.

Gretzky essentially lapped the field with regard to virtually all modern offensive records. Was he the most natural goal scorer of his time? No, Mike Bossy was and #99 will tell you so himself. Was he the single most skilled player of his time? You'll get a good argument (including from me) that Robert Orr and #66 surpass him.

But there is no questioning his utter dominance. None whatsoever. For a single decade (the 1980s) he transcended his sport unlike any other athlete in any professional sports league ever, IMO. And 10 years is a long time in professional sports. So what if he was a mere mortal the second half of his career? Had he retired in 1990 he would still be legendary. As is, his output in the '90s was nothing to be ashamed of; a vast majority of NHLers would take it in a nanosecond.

And, to be honest, the "what ifs" sound silly, at least here. What if Guy Lafluer didn't smoke two packs a day? What if Bossy's career didn't end after 10 seasons? Same with Bobby Orr. And Mario, for that matter. Ultimately, all one can go by is reality, what has actually transpired.

The truly "great" ones are so few. ("Great" being the most overused and abused word in sports lexicon.) Ruth, Jordan and Montana in other sports come to mind. And in hockey over the last three decades, #99, #66 and #4 tower above all others, by a considerable margin. It is futile to attempt to diminish any of their accomplishments in any way whatsoever, IMO.

Wayne was able to score 8,000,000 points because he played in a weaker conference?

C'mon!

 

[JCD]

Gartner has 700 goals and Dino 600.

Stats are just that especially for 80's players.

You'll always rely purely on stats so there's no point and you'll miss the compliment in being called the second best offensive player of his generation after Mario, from someone who actually saw all of the 1980's. I could have said third after Bossy also. Bossy played in a tougher division night after night and against tough checking that ultimatley ended his career.

So consider 2nd best a compliment.

I might consider your point for a nanosecond if Wayne didn't have more assists than anybody else does points. We are not comparing a 120 point scorer to a 130 point scorer.

We are talking about a guy who would routinely win the Art Ross trophy on assists alone. Over a teammate he was setting up. Stats only reinforce a point, they don't make it. I saw Gretzky do unfathomable things. That conclusion is backed up total statistical domination. He didn't get 2800+ points because the West allowed 2% more goals than the East. He didn't get 2800 points because he was lucky. Even playing during the exact same run-and-gun era, Mario only approached Wayne's level of play during a handful of seasons. Wayne did it for nearly a decade.

See that is the difference between us. We back up our opinion with facts and statistics. You back up yours with insults and conjecture while ignoring objective criteria like facts and statistics. We might give you an once of respect if you just said you hated Gretzky instead of this sham.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

I might consider your point for a nanosecond if Wayne didn't have more assists than anybody else does points. We are not comparing a 120 point scorer to a 130 point scorer.

We are talking about a guy who would routinely win the Art Ross trophy on assists alone. Over a teammate he was setting up. Stats only reinforce a point, they don't make it. I saw Gretzky do unfathomable things. That conclusion is backed up total statistical domination. He didn't get 2800+ points because the West allowed 2% more goals than the East. He didn't get 2800 points because he was lucky. Even playing during the exact same run-and-gun era, Mario only approached Wayne's level of play during a handful of seasons. Wayne did it for nearly a decade.

See that is the difference between us. We back up our opinion with facts and statistics. You back up yours with insults and conjecture while ignoring objective criteria like facts and statistics. We might give you an once of respect if you just said you hated Gretzky instead of this sham.

Not trying to start an argument again but dont you think Chooch has a point somewhat? I mean when Mike Gartner who is a good goal scorer, no more no less gets more then 700 goals and Gretzky gets like only 150 more that the era Gretz played in really help his totals? I'm not arguing about assists because that would be stupid because I admit he was the best playmaker ever.

 

[JCD]

Not trying to start an argument again but dont you think Chooch has a point somewhat? I mean when Mike Gartner who is a good goal scorer, no more no less gets more then 700 goals and Gretzky gets like only 150 more that the era Gretz played in really help his totals? I'm not arguing about assists because that would be stupid because I admit he was the best playmaker ever.

No, I don't. He didn't call Gretzky the the 2nd best goalscorer of his generation. HE called him the second best offensive player. Offense is goals and assists.

Being the offensive player is a pretty easy thing to check on. Offense has easy statistical measures to look at: points, goals, assits. Per game, career or single-season, Gretzky sweeps the board. Regular season and play-offs. Now, if somebody was a greater offensive player during Gretzky's generation, shouldn't he has scored more? If not overall, then at least per season? Or per game? Even the best Mario has to offer falls short of what Gretzky did during the exact same era.

 

[chooch*]

No, I don't. He didn't call Gretzky the the 2nd best goalscorer of his generation. HE called him the second best offensive player. Offense is goals and assists.

Being the offensive player is a pretty easy thing to check on. Offense has easy statistical measures to look at: points, goals, assits. Per game, career or single-season, Gretzky sweeps the board. Regular season and play-offs. Now, if somebody was a greater offensive player during Gretzky's generation, shouldn't he has scored more? If not overall, then at least per season? Or per game? Even the best Mario has to offer falls short of what Gretzky did during the exact same era.

Its obvious to anyone who saw Edmonton games in the 80's - Gretzky has more assist than Mario because 99 wasnt allowed to be hit. You know why. He'd park behind the net and only Billy Smith would take a swipe at him. Mario, Neely, Espo, Orr, Guy were all getting hammered. But they also drew a lot of penalties. Orr and Guy would routinely draw a bunch of penalities from players trying to slow him and slash him etc. On the oilers Glenn Anderson was good at that.

Kovvy10 is the only one who gets it - I mean Mike Gartner!

I think stats are just that and anyone who compares Tiger or Jordan or Senna or god sakes Ruth to 99 is stretching badly.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

One more thing. Lafleur actually was a winger and from the top 20 players with more assists, only 2 are right wingers. 1 is Gordie Howe and the other one is Lafleur. Lafleur actually was getting 75-80 assists a year playing with a semi defensive center in Lemaire. Shutt was nothing but a 30 goal scorer and Guy turned him into a 60 goal one. And to prove it was no fluke he made Shutt score 49 goals the next year. 45 the year before that. I mean Guy is like the only right winger to make his teammates score a lot more goals then they are capable of. Only 1 winger has a higher assists per game and thats Mike Bossy and by a very little difference and that's because he played only 9 years. Aint that impressive?

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

One more thing. Lafleur actually was a winger and from the top 20 players with more assists, only 2 are right wingers. 1 is Gordie Howe and the other one is Lafleur. Lafleur actually was getting 75-80 assists a year playing with a semi defensive center in Lemaire. Shutt was nothing but a 30 goal scorer and Guy turned him into a 60 goal one. And to prove it was no fluke he made Shutt score 49 goals the next year. 45 the year before that. I mean Guy is like the only right winger to make his teammates score a lot more goals then they are capable of. Only 1 winger has a higher assists per game and thats Mike Bossy and by a very little difference and that's because he played only 9 years. Aint that impressive?

Yes, even more impressive since Bossy was really just an 8 goal a year winger who owes it all to Trottier.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Yes, even more impressive since Bossy was really just an 8 goal a year winger who owes it all to Trottier.

What's that suppose to mean?

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

What's that suppose to mean?

Just what it says, my friend, just what it says.