Which put Punch Imlach in the hospital and King Clancy stepped in and turned the team around. Who’s todays King Clancy because now would be a good time for him to step forward.
10 years. Time is up Shanahan.
- Thread starter TMLife17
- Start date
Tanks work if you have no talent with NMCs. That ship sailed and it has nothing to do with the fans. A competent management team could rebuild this team on the fly around 8-10 players on the roster now.
Completely agree, although I think Kadri was signed for $4.5 million- even cheaper!
I meant signed at $6.5M less than Tavares at $11M.
I said it when they signed him it was a massive miscalculation. All of my friends said I was an idiot. Funny how things work out.
I don’t think signing JT was a mistake despite how I want him gone since last year.
Mistakes came after that.
1. Didnt resign Hanisy
2. Should had bridge both Willie and MM
3. Should had trade AJ after that year instead of renewing him. As Dubas could had a mid to late first for AJ that summer.
4. Should had done a better job with Kadri or Kadri’s trade
5. Fire Keefe after the Habs series
List goes on.
It tied up a huge amount of cap in a position we didn’t need filled.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
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Well, the talent vs hard work dichotomy is also supposedly a key concept instilling resiliency in children. A kid who is naturally talented can achieve great things and have results but you want to encourage their effort by emphasizing the fact that they worked hard to achieve.
Typically championship teams don’t talk about the belief in their own talent and skill level the way Toronto has. They emphasize the process, put on that faux blue collar mentality. Because ultimately the skill is the skill but working hard means you have a way to apply it consistently.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
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There are a lot of alternative scenarios where we could have managed the talent in the organization better. Anyway, backing up and continuing along as to avoid this rabbit hole.
rumman
Registered User
- Sep 10, 2008
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Hopefully your right and Pelley fires his ass, I mean the guy lives in New York City for God’s sake……..
Totally agree... I knew we were in very very big trouble when both Matthews and Marner cited Keefes very first message as their head coach "Play to your god given talent". Which interestingly, focusing on talent and less on systems, skill and experience is what this article explained was in part led to the downfall of Enron.
The Talent Myth
Malcolm Gladwell questions the correlation between I.Q. and occupational success: “The talent myth assumes that people make organizations smart. More often than not, it's the other way around.”
The broader failing of McKinsey and its acolytes at Enron is their assumption that an organization’s intelligence is simply a function of the intelligence of its employees. They believe in stars, because they don’t believe in systems. In a way, that’s understandable, because our lives are so obviously enriched by individual brilliance. Groups don’t write great novels, and a committee didn’t come up with the theory of relativity. But companies work by different rules. They don’t just create; they execute and compete and coördinate the efforts of many different people, and the organizations that are most successful at that task are the ones where the system is the star.
As you've said, leafs are always talking about their stars but rarely do they praise their system.
...Once at Enron, the top performers were rewarded inordinately, and promoted without regard for seniority or experience. Enron was a star system. “The only thing that differentiates Enron from our competitors is our people, our talent,” Lay, Enron’s former chairman and C.E.O., told the McKinsey consultants when they came to the company’s headquarters, in Houston. Or, as another senior Enron executive put it to Richard Foster, a McKinsey partner who celebrated Enron in his 2001 book, “Creative Destruction,” “We hire very smart people and we pay them more than they think they are worth.”
Marner given a contract essentially better (given the shorter term) than 27 year old, former captain, two time hart finalist, and former first overall draft pick, UFA center John Tavares. Nylander, Matthews getting contracts paid more than their comparables and without playoff results. Marner given an A before earning it.
People deemed “talented” were constantly being pushed into new jobs and given new challenges
Mitch Marner... Playing PK and even tried on Defense! Nylander now on PK.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 79,565
- 55,427
Totally agree... I knew we were in very very big trouble when both Matthews and Marner cited Keefes very first message as their head coach "Play to your god given talent". Which interestingly, focusing on talent and less on systems, skill and experience is what this article explained was in part led to the downfall of Enron.
The Talent Myth
Malcolm Gladwell questions the correlation between I.Q. and occupational success: “The talent myth assumes that people make organizations smart. More often than not, it's the other way around.”www.newyorker.com
The broader failing of McKinsey and its acolytes at Enron is their assumption that an organization’s intelligence is simply a function of the intelligence of its employees. They believe in stars, because they don’t believe in systems. In a way, that’s understandable, because our lives are so obviously enriched by individual brilliance. Groups don’t write great novels, and a committee didn’t come up with the theory of relativity. But companies work by different rules. They don’t just create; they execute and compete and coördinate the efforts of many different people, and the organizations that are most successful at that task are the ones where the system is the star.
As you've said, leafs are always talking about their stars but rarely do they praise their system.
...Once at Enron, the top performers were rewarded inordinately, and promoted without regard for seniority or experience. Enron was a star system. “The only thing that differentiates Enron from our competitors is our people, our talent,” Lay, Enron’s former chairman and C.E.O., told the McKinsey consultants when they came to the company’s headquarters, in Houston. Or, as another senior Enron executive put it to Richard Foster, a McKinsey partner who celebrated Enron in his 2001 book, “Creative Destruction,” “We hire very smart people and we pay them more than they think they are worth.”
Marner given a contract essentially better (given the shorter term) than 27 year old, former captain, two time hart finalist, and former first overall draft pick, UFA center John Tavares. Nylander, Matthews getting contracts paid more than their comparables and without playoff results. Marner given an A before earning it.
People deemed “talented” were constantly being pushed into new jobs and given new challenges
Mitch Marner... Playing PK and even tried on Defense! Nylander now on PK.
Oh yeah that’s right, Malcolm Gladwell.
Relating to hockey, ultimate success comes when you take those talents and you put them into a system that can get more juice through repetitive and replicable processes. For example you don’t need to completely improvise every powerplay and have an uncoordinated ballet of sublime talent when your stars hit their marks and just crank out scoring chances. Just one example.
Well, it was a good gamble. Like I said, it was the right decision at that time but it doesn’t mean I don’t hate it now.
That’s why I don’t really like what if….
We could go back to the year where the Leafs tanked but somehow Bozak had that 3-4games stretch where he was amazing and scored a 1st period hat trick. If he didn’t done that, Leafs would lose more points thus finishing lower than Oilers and getting McD.
Dubas crippled this team for its entire window with his godawful contract negotiations on guys who were RFA’s and Shanahan signed off on it. They’ve been doubling down for more than half a decade with zero results and at this point, I want them to crash and burn so they try something new because this is not working. It’s literally the definition of insanity to keep trying.
Racer88
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2020
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The biggest mistake has been running the same failed mistakes over and over every year and they are still doing it
rumman
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- Sep 10, 2008
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Steamy Ray Vaughn
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- Mar 14, 2022
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I 100% agree it's time for Shanahan to hit the bricks. He was only hired because of who he was as a player, he had no real experience in an NHL club to warrant running hockey operations. If you want to hire him in a ceremonial role and have him do PR, fine.
I would say I liked, but didn't love Dubas. I'd give him a B. Pretty good but nowhere near great. I understand the Tavares signing at the time it was done. Here was a top UFA that was willing to come to Toronto and was not over the hill. Dubas' biggest mistake by far was the Kadri trade. Not because he traded Kadri, but because of what he got in return. Kerfoot never really panned out as a center, and it was never going to work for Barrie. He was not what the Leafs needed at the time. The Tavares signing ended up hurting the Leafs big time in retrospect for sure but you can't force them to sign a contract.
Dubas did some good moves like getting Campbell and Muzzin. I think taking a bet on Murray was a good move given they got him for literally nothing and didn't commit to the 5x5 Edmonton ended up giving Campbell. Murray was a bust but he's gone at the end of the year. Samsonov had a good year and although he fell off this season, it's not like he's signed long term.
As for the contract extensions, I think there's only so much GMs can do even with RFA. Yes, you can always hold out and make them sweat but then you're risking pissing them off and losing them. So all in all, Dubas was OK. When Shanahan announced the he wasn't giving Dubas a new contract, I wasn't opposed. It made sense, Dubas' tenure had been marked by failure and he wasn't able to get the team past the hump. He gave up way too many picks for not enough success.
But to me if you're letting your GM go, then you want a new vision and you bring in someone to give them a chance to make the team over. Sheldon Keefe was in his last year of his contract, a new GM just got hired, wouldn't it make sense to let the season play out and see how it goes? Refusing to even consider trading one of the Core 4 and announcing it the world was also dumb. I love Nylander and I think the deal he got was fair value, but the problem is, the Leafs couldn't afford it. There are no goalies, the defense is extremely shallow and there's no secondary scoring.
There's a lot of talk about how the Leafs don't win because they're too soft. I don't think that's the main issue. The fact is that in the playoffs, the opposition has more leeway to defend against the Core 4 aggressively. There's no threat from the bottom 6 of lighting up the lamp. Just adding goons won't fix that problem. The new deal for Matthews shows that it doesn't matter who the GM is, the players hold all the card. Auston got exactly what he wanted and didn't have to make any concessions this time either. JT can't be bought out (no cap savings) and can't be traded unless he waives his NTC and even then, what are you going to get for him?
Lou is gone, Babcock is gone, Dubas is gone, the only one left who has been there since the beginning of the "rebuild" is Shanahan. If the Leafs fail again, he's the one whose head's got to roll. With Nylander's new deal, the Leafs are stuck in cap hell for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately the only thing they can do is keep their draft picks and try to find a pearl in the draft. They can't sell, they can't buy and at the end of the day, everything that happened was signed off by Shanahan. Even if you want to blame Dubas (which isn't unfair), now Shanahan has fired his last bullet. He just extended the coach, firing him would just reflect extremely badly on him.
I would say I liked, but didn't love Dubas. I'd give him a B. Pretty good but nowhere near great. I understand the Tavares signing at the time it was done. Here was a top UFA that was willing to come to Toronto and was not over the hill. Dubas' biggest mistake by far was the Kadri trade. Not because he traded Kadri, but because of what he got in return. Kerfoot never really panned out as a center, and it was never going to work for Barrie. He was not what the Leafs needed at the time. The Tavares signing ended up hurting the Leafs big time in retrospect for sure but you can't force them to sign a contract.
Dubas did some good moves like getting Campbell and Muzzin. I think taking a bet on Murray was a good move given they got him for literally nothing and didn't commit to the 5x5 Edmonton ended up giving Campbell. Murray was a bust but he's gone at the end of the year. Samsonov had a good year and although he fell off this season, it's not like he's signed long term.
As for the contract extensions, I think there's only so much GMs can do even with RFA. Yes, you can always hold out and make them sweat but then you're risking pissing them off and losing them. So all in all, Dubas was OK. When Shanahan announced the he wasn't giving Dubas a new contract, I wasn't opposed. It made sense, Dubas' tenure had been marked by failure and he wasn't able to get the team past the hump. He gave up way too many picks for not enough success.
But to me if you're letting your GM go, then you want a new vision and you bring in someone to give them a chance to make the team over. Sheldon Keefe was in his last year of his contract, a new GM just got hired, wouldn't it make sense to let the season play out and see how it goes? Refusing to even consider trading one of the Core 4 and announcing it the world was also dumb. I love Nylander and I think the deal he got was fair value, but the problem is, the Leafs couldn't afford it. There are no goalies, the defense is extremely shallow and there's no secondary scoring.
There's a lot of talk about how the Leafs don't win because they're too soft. I don't think that's the main issue. The fact is that in the playoffs, the opposition has more leeway to defend against the Core 4 aggressively. There's no threat from the bottom 6 of lighting up the lamp. Just adding goons won't fix that problem. The new deal for Matthews shows that it doesn't matter who the GM is, the players hold all the card. Auston got exactly what he wanted and didn't have to make any concessions this time either. JT can't be bought out (no cap savings) and can't be traded unless he waives his NTC and even then, what are you going to get for him?
Lou is gone, Babcock is gone, Dubas is gone, the only one left who has been there since the beginning of the "rebuild" is Shanahan. If the Leafs fail again, he's the one whose head's got to roll. With Nylander's new deal, the Leafs are stuck in cap hell for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately the only thing they can do is keep their draft picks and try to find a pearl in the draft. They can't sell, they can't buy and at the end of the day, everything that happened was signed off by Shanahan. Even if you want to blame Dubas (which isn't unfair), now Shanahan has fired his last bullet. He just extended the coach, firing him would just reflect extremely badly on him.
PromisedLand
I need more FOOD
Haven't we established by now that Sid knows absolutely nothing? You would be better off quoting Steve Simmons...
thewave
Registered User
- Jun 17, 2011
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He said the obvious and you are questioning how much he knows? He knows more than you most likely for starts so there is that. Obviously you can feel free to tell us of your connections in the business. I imagine he is saying this because connected people are saying the same.
Pretty safe to say most people in here now agree with Sid.
The Shadow
Registered User
- Feb 9, 2013
- 1,103
- 823
If you watched any of the games recently
You knew this team was not a real contender
They are far too inconsistent and give up endless high scoring chances to the opposition.
You knew this team was not a real contender
They are far too inconsistent and give up endless high scoring chances to the opposition.
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