Zubov vs. Hatcher

[Hobnobs]

I completely agree.

I saw someone else say Hatcher was better for his era, but Zubov would be better for any other... maybe that would be true if hockey history started in 1995 or so, but I feel like Hatcher would have been quite at home playing pre-expansion hockey, for example.

Another point in Hatcher's favor - I think that if one were ranking the all-time best penalty killing and power play defensemen, Hatcher would rank quite a bit higher on the all-time PKer list than Zubov would rank on the all-time PP pointmen list.

No I wrote that Hatchet played during his time in Dallas played in the perfect era compared to Zubov.

I didnt write that Hatcher was bad outside that era because he wasnt. Hatcher didnt have the recognition before or after the DPE though and Zubov did but this thread was strictly about their time in Dallas together.

And during their time in Dallas Id say its a wash. They were equally important to that team.

 

[tjcurrie]

Both underappreciated. Zubov is certainly HOF caliber yet not really a peep about him as summer hits and the voting is on tap. His 56 gets fanfare as the next # to be retired by the franchise, yet Hatcher's #2 not a whole lot while being equally as deserving. Had management not played chicken with him, he wouldn't have left for Detroit and therefore would still be in the front of people's minds instead of the back. All perception. His contributions to the club were just as great.

Anyways, I hate picking one here, both completely different players, yet both tremendous for the Stars and vital in the team's successes those days, both among the top 3 best defensemen this franchise has ever had, Craig Hartsburg being the other.

Edit: I'd like to add that Hatcher's heads-up & transition game get severely underrated. He wasn't Bobby Orr with his skating, but he was excellent at stopping the opposition and then getting the puck up ice whether by lugging it himself then chipping it in or making a play, or with a solid pass from his own end. He was also decent post-lockout for a bit, entering his mid-30s while playing on a destroyed knee, a knee that forced him into retirement.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I wasn't thinking of Konstantinov, since his career barely overlapped Hatcher's prime. But anyway, here we go, time to be thorough:

Since 1996*, here is everyone who made the postseason All-Star team as a 1st or 2nd Team All-Star defenseman, while scoring fewer than 40 points:

*not including the lockout-shortened 2013 season.

player|season|points|led league in +\-
Scott Stevens|1997|26|no
Derian Hatcher|2003|30|no
Scott Stevens|2001|31|no
Vladimir Konstantinov|1996|34|yes
Chris Pronger|1998|36|yes
Chris Chelios|2002|39|yes

In addition, from my Hatcher bio:

I checked which defensemen finished Top 10 in Norris voting from 96-97 to 02-03 without scoring 40 points or more.

96-97
2nd: Konstantinov (38 pts)
5th: Stevens (24 points)

97-98
3rd: Pronger (36 points)
4th: Stevens (26 points)

98-99
6th: Stevens (27 points)
7th: Hatcher (30 pts)

99-00
6th: Chelios (34 pts)
8th: MacInnis (39 pts)

00-01
3rd: Stevens (31 pts)
(Hatcher finished 13th with 23 pts, was the next in line under 40 pts after Stevens)

01-02
2nd: Chelios (39 pts)
8th: Aucoin (34 pts)

02-03
3rd: Hatcher (30 pts)
7th: Chara (39 pts)
10th: Foote (31 pts)

Stevens, Chelios and Hatcher are the only ones to appear at least twice on that list.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I completely agree.

I saw someone else say Hatcher was better for his era, but Zubov would be better for any other... maybe that would be true if hockey history started in 1995 or so, but I feel like Hatcher would have been quite at home playing pre-expansion hockey, for example.

Yeah that comment puzzled me too.Hatcher would basically be right at home in every era except after the 2005 lock-out, which is exactly when some people remember him, forgetting how dominant he was (in his own style) in the late 90s early 00s.The only environment where Hatcher would be exposed is if the era is build around speed, and when that happened, he had lost a lot of speed already due to knee injuries.In his prime, Hatcher wasn't that slow.

Another point in Hatcher's favor - I think that if one were ranking the all-time best penalty killing and power play defensemen, Hatcher would rank quite a bit higher on the all-time PKer list than Zubov would rank on the all-time PP pointmen list.

Agreed.Hatcher ticks a lot of other boxes too.For example, if you ranked the all-time nastiest/tallest/most physical defenders, he wouldn't be too far from the best, so that's another thing he's an all-time great at.

He is a heavyweight fighter too, though perhaps not a great one.But at least a good one who can go at it with basically anyone.

He has leadership abilities.

That's a lot of key skills which makes him a protective and valuable presence on your blueline.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Stevens, Chelios and Hatcher are the only ones to appear at least twice on that list.

Another point that jumps out - Stevens is the only player listed who scored less than 30 points in a season (and he has three of those years).

 

[BenchBrawl]

Another point that jumps out - Stevens is the only player listed who scored less than 30 points in a season (and he has three of those years).

Yes, though Hatcher got his votings with exactly 30 pts the two times, which isn't very far, but maybe there's an aesthetic factor in the voter's head to reaching 30.

OTOH, Hatcher is the only one between the three who never scored high numbers prior to those years.So he didn't build any of his star power with offense.

 

[BenchBrawl]

No I wrote that Hatchet played during his time in Dallas played in the perfect era compared to Zubov.

I didnt write that Hatcher was bad outside that era because he wasnt. Hatcher didnt have the recognition before or after the DPE though and Zubov did but this thread was strictly about their time in Dallas together.

And during their time in Dallas Id say its a wash. They were equally important to that team.

To be fair, Hatcher was 24 years old when the DPE started, so you wouldn't expect him to get recognition, especially considering his style which isn't suited for "extreme youth".As for after the DPE, his knee was done, he was done, and it was the worst possible era for him on top of it.Noteworthy was that he was still a strong PKer even after the DPE in Philadelphia.

As for Zubov, it's not surprising that he got recognition after the lockout.Zubov was a strong PP quarterback and he got among his best PP numbers in 05-06 and 06-07, which was a PP-friendly era.

 

[BryzyInPhilly]

Totally agree. Hatcher was good at clearing the net and in the corners, I guess, but a lot of that has to do with the referees letting more penalties go uncalled against him than against any player I've ever seen, before or since. Zubov was just good at his position, full stop. Real good.




That was 05-06 and Crosby ate him alive on the scoresheet that year to the tune of nearly 2 points per game. Lowest +/- of any regular D on the team. I remember him being a big liability, which is probably why the Red Wings bought him out in the first place.

In 07-08, Hatcher missed half the games. I can't remember how he looked in that particular season off the top of my head, but at a glance, his analytics were abominable, which doesn't suggest he turned back the clock.

Hatcher was decent in 05-06 but unremarkable by 07-08. Teams exploited his immobility and he became a liability in the final year or two of his career, although he was (or at least seemed) a good leader/team player and remained a physical presence and good shot blocker

Overall, I would've rather had Zubov during the tail end of their careers and Hatcher during the DPE. It's a tough question because they filled such different roles.

EDIT: So, to answer the OP's question, I'd rather have had Hatcher during their Stars years because he was, in that era, an ideal defensive-defenseman with the so-called "X-factors" that carry playoff runs. That, and he was a great fit for a Hitchcock team.

 

[Hobnobs]

To be fair, Hatcher was 24 years old when the DPE started, so you wouldn't expect him to get recognition, especially considering his style which isn't suited for "extreme youth".As for after the DPE, his knee was done, he was done, and it was the worst possible era for him on top of it.Noteworthy was that he was still a strong PKer even after the DPE in Philadelphia.

As for Zubov, it's not surprising that he got recognition after the lockout.Zubov was a strong PP quarterback and he got among his best PP numbers in 05-06 and 06-07, which was a PP-friendly era.

Yes but we are talking about the era in which Hatcher were more suited and he wasnt ahead of Zubov in that era even though it was tailor made for a guy like Hatcher.

 

[LightningStorm]

As a Stars fan I preferred Zubov. Defensively they were both effective, though in different ways. Zubov was a smart defender, though his play didn't make the highlights the same way Hatcher did. Hatcher did have the intimidation factor, intimidating players similar to how Stevens did. The main reason I'd choose Zubov though was because I thought he was a better foundation for a D-man unit than Hatcher. His play always brought stability to the Stars plus he was much better offensively. So even during their time as teammates during the DPE, which was perfectly suited for Hatcher, I'd still slightly prefer Zubov. As we all know once that era ended, Hatcher was ineffective due to injuries and the faster pace, while Zubov had his best season in 2006.