Zdeno Chara's Place in Bruins Defeseman History
- Thread starter BigBadBruins7708
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Over the volcano
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As a kid who grew up worshipping Bourque, I have Chara at #2 behind Orr. He brought the team the Cup which I honestly didn’t believe would happen and as a fan puts him over the top.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
He's #4 by a wide margin, both above and below him!
vadim sharifijanov
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- Oct 10, 2007
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so i checked brad park's numbers just to make sure of this.
eight seasons, two finals, three semi-finals (conferences finals or equivalent), two 1AST/norris runner-ups, 417 points in 501 games, 78 playoff points in 91 games and i'm like... are you sure the margin is really that wide?
then i look at chara's stat page and i'm like, jesus christ he's played 1,000 games as a bruin. sew that man's banner for the rafters and let's never speak of this again.
Stephen
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- Feb 28, 2002
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I hate Chara with a passion. But I think a robust debate could be had vis-à-vis Chara vs Bourque in terms of what you want a cornerstone franchise defenseman. Does individual greatness trump a little less individual greatness but more team success? And I think you could have the same debate between Chara vs Shore which would be more on the grounds of comparing historical eras. I could also see a Shore vs Chara vs Bourque royal rumble being loads of fun.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
It really is a whole debate and a case can be made for each depending on what you value.
On the cornerstone defender part I think Shore is safely ahead. The man won 2 Cups and 4 Harts. Was also 7x AS-1 (arguably all retro Norris wins) and a 7x Hart finalist (1,1,1,1,2,3,3)
Barnum
Registered User
MarkusKetterer
Shoulda got one game in
I can see it. Had he retired 5 years ago, he might be in the convo for 3rd best.
Orr
Bourque/Shore
Bourque/Shore/Chara (basically between the loser of the 2nd place and Chara).
Because of how long Chara lasted, he’s lost a lot of his sheen. But he’s still a top 6 D, so I wouldn’t retire either.
Orr
Bourque/Shore
Bourque/Shore/Chara (basically between the loser of the 2nd place and Chara).
Because of how long Chara lasted, he’s lost a lot of his sheen. But he’s still a top 6 D, so I wouldn’t retire either.
BenchBrawl
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- Jul 26, 2010
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Clapper is probably a better Bruins, at least reputationally, but not strictly as a defenseman.
Not sure how to evaluate Clapper in a thread like this.
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BenchBrawl
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Really? I'm bigger on cup counting than most, but this is taking it way too far. Bourque was twice the player Chara ever was.
Johnny Engine
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- Jul 29, 2009
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As all time teams with a satisfyingly clean number of obvious choices go, this group of six Bruins defensemen:
Bourque - Orr
Chara - Shore
Park - Clapper
is almost as cut and dry as this starting six for the wings:
Lindsay - Yzerman - Howe
Kelly - Lidstrom
Sawchuk
Bourque - Orr
Chara - Shore
Park - Clapper
is almost as cut and dry as this starting six for the wings:
Lindsay - Yzerman - Howe
Kelly - Lidstrom
Sawchuk
Over the volcano
Registered User
Totally different players. Bourque was better as a conventional D and set the bar in my life. But Chara could win the Norris, captain the team, fight the gooniest of the goons nd brought the Cup. IMO a great defenseman would look a lot like Bourque but we won’t ever see another Chara. Again, totally a fan point of view the day after he leaves the team but here I am
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I mean obviously Park is a better player, but is Park's bruins career better? I don't see a path to victory for Park there.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
No, that's not how it works. Those five seasons didn't make him any worse. In fact, three of those five seasons he was still the #1 defenseman of an excellent team.
BenchBrawl
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Chara's weaknesses still had to be covered for. His skating was really bad for a Norris winner.
Bourque OTOH needed no coverage of any kind, you just sent him against anyone, at anytime, with anyone on his side, and he would excel. He was a great skater and had almost all the tools.
I see your point about Chara bringing a unique physical presence, but this is Ray Bourque we're talking about.
Chara "brought the cup", but his performances in the playoffs, while OK, weren't memorable neither. He did enough, but not more. He was no Chris Pronger here.
Professor What
Registered User
I could see fourth and fifth going either way between Chara and Park, but that top three is absolutely unassailable. We're talking three of the top five defensemen in the history of the sport, all of whom built that status almost entirely in Boston.
I'm going to be very dogmatic here (something I try not to do even when I feel strongly about a subject): there is absolutely no argument whatsoever for Chara in the top three Bruins defensemen. Period. To make that case would be to make the case that he's in the conversation as a top five defenseman overall, and he's nowhere near that.
In fairness to Chara, however, being 4th/5th at defenseman in Bruins history is a much bigger deal than to be in that spot with virtually any other team. As the OP said, Boston literally has an embarrassment of riches at the position.
I'm going to be very dogmatic here (something I try not to do even when I feel strongly about a subject): there is absolutely no argument whatsoever for Chara in the top three Bruins defensemen. Period. To make that case would be to make the case that he's in the conversation as a top five defenseman overall, and he's nowhere near that.
In fairness to Chara, however, being 4th/5th at defenseman in Bruins history is a much bigger deal than to be in that spot with virtually any other team. As the OP said, Boston literally has an embarrassment of riches at the position.
MadLuke
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Bourque played about 1,500 RS games as a bruins at a ppg average, was +500 has a bruins, he had 180 playoff games and 161 points and the only year he was in the playoff and they recorded ice time was playing 32 minutes a night at 37, won 5 Norris has a bruins got really close to the Hart 2 times losing to Gretzky and Messier. For all but 2 Bruins full season (20) Bourque was Top 4 in Norris vote and on the first or second all star team.
Never won the cup obviously but it is not by a personal lack of Conn Smythe type of runs.
Sure Chara is even more unique by is size, but I am not sure how much has a factor that would have went ranking Bruins.
Never won the cup obviously but it is not by a personal lack of Conn Smythe type of runs.
Sure Chara is even more unique by is size, but I am not sure how much has a factor that would have went ranking Bruins.
habsrule4eva3089
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- Nov 22, 2008
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MarkusKetterer
Shoulda got one game in
He was #1 on his team, but not seen as a potential #1 league wide. So I can see that taking a sheen off him. I personally don’t care that he’s still playing, but you know there’s people who think he’s now just a compiler, and therefore not as good as he was.
Understandable because he’s not a #1 anymore but with some people that final impression is all that matters.
Professor What
Registered User
And while those two Finals appearances didn't go very well, we do have to remember that the Bruins ran into the buzz saw of the Oilers dynasty twice. And, as you say, Bourque's play wasn't at fault. Both years that the Bruins made the Finals with Bourque, he was at or near a point per game in the playoffs, which isn't half bad for a defenseman. Looking at the Bruins rosters during that time, they weren't exactly stacked top to bottom during that time either. I'd dare say that two Finals appearances in three seasons just might have been overachieving. Boston wouldn't have come within a mile of winning the Cup during that time without Bourque.
You also mention the 1990 Hart race. Well, I almost picked that Hart as the one I would have changed in my trophy changing thread. Messier had a strong season that year, but I've long felt that Bourque should have won it. And to think that he was ahead on first and second place votes.
MadLuke
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Will see, part of is persona pedigree, is being a physical specimen and very durable and a late bloomer, considering those aspect and what he gave during is old age, I am not sure it will have any Paul Coffey effect to him, he never became a liability. He was pretty much leading the Bruins in +/- the 3 last seasons. Low point season is not something that could hurt him either I feel like, unlike an offensive forward/D
Stephen
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- Feb 28, 2002
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Stripping away all specific Bruins lore for a moment, the litmus test I'd use in a Bourque vs Chara debate might boil down to something like this: if my franchise were at a historical inflexion point and about to add a future Hall of Fame caliber defenseman who will define the next 15-20 years, would it mean more for the franchise to possess the individual greatness of a top 3-5 defenseman of all-time, repeat Norris Trophies but come short of ultimate playoff success, or would it mean more for the franchise to win a championship along with a handful of runs to the finals, in addition to Norris caliber peak?
On the surface the absolute superiority of Bourque as an individual is a no brainer, but it did come with a futility record. If I'm thinking about a Bruins Valhalla, that Stanley Cup is really tipping the scales.
On the surface the absolute superiority of Bourque as an individual is a no brainer, but it did come with a futility record. If I'm thinking about a Bruins Valhalla, that Stanley Cup is really tipping the scales.
Barnum
Registered User
Gotcha, your comment makes more sense to me, now. Obviously, Park’s very best “peak” years were in NY but I do find it odd that alot of people blow off Park’s years in Boston. He was still dynamite in Boston, played slightly more games and recorded more points up there on Boston than as a Ranger. Those were some amazing Boston teams back then that had the unfortunate circumstance to run up against one of the best teams that ever skated, in Montreal. And Park led the defense of those Boston teams.
To me, Park had one of the most unfortunate careers, first he was up against “you know who” for the Norris and came up short 5 times, then later in his career had to fight those incredible Hab teams. His hardware should be alot bigger.
Does this not speak more to the players around them though? I think no doubt the last 10-15 years have been better in terms of the Bruins franchise than the whole of Bourque's term, but that also includes much better surrounding players generally, including Thomas being much better than Chara in the cup win (and several others having cases), and even Bergeron being arguably more valuable during this period for the team in general.
I could understand this thinking if, as mentioned earlier, Chara had put a decent team on his back a la '06 Pronger and had won the cup as the clear best player on the team, and if the only reason why Bourque was considered the better player was his consistency and length of prime rather than also having a better and longer peak in both the regular season and playoffs. Or if Bourque had questions about his leadership and commitment and wasn't also a captain forever. As it stands though it basically comes down to Chara is a better Bruin because he had better teammates and didn't play in the time of dynasties.
Professor What
Registered User
Please, no Bruins fans take offense to this, because it's not meant as a dig at your team, except for maybe the folks in the front office while he was there. Ray Bourque was wasted on the Bruins, in my opinion. I don't feel that they ever made the moves to build a team around him that actually gave him the best chance to win. If they had, I suspect we never would have seen him in any other jersey, because I think it's likely he would have gotten a Cup in Boston. The franchise has been much better about that in recent years, building real teams that won a Cup and played in two other hard fought Finals. Imagine Bourque on a franchise with that mentality. I doubt we'd be talking about just one Cup, and a Conn Smythe seems like a distinct possibility too.
