Zack Kassian VI - Riding the Pine or Riding Shotgun?

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Last thread was approaching 1,000. Continue here.

Click to read more...

 

[NoShowWilly]

points last 20:

H. Sedin - 18
D. Sedin - 16
Vrbata - 11
Richardson - 10
Horvat - 10
Kassian - 9
Matthias - 9
Higgins - 9
Burrows - 8
Hansen - 8
Vey - 7
Kenins - 6
Bonino - 5
Dorsett - 4
McMillan - 0?

(didn't spend 10 minutes on that work just to have it disappear on one page)

 

[arsmaster*]

points last 20:

H. Sedin - 18
D. Sedin - 16
Vrbata - 11
Richardson - 10
Horvat - 10
Kassian - 9
Matthias - 9
Higgins - 9
Burrows - 8
Hansen - 8
Vey - 7
Kenins - 6
Bonino - 5
Dorsett - 4
McMillan - 0?

(didn't spend 10 minutes on that work just to have it disappear on one page)

I'm gonna thank you for it again.

 

[arttk]

points last 20:

H. Sedin - 18
D. Sedin - 16
Vrbata - 11
Richardson - 10
Horvat - 10
Kassian - 9
Matthias - 9
Higgins - 9
Burrows - 8
Hansen - 8
Vey - 7
Kenins - 6
Bonino - 5
Dorsett - 4
McMillan - 0?

(didn't spend 10 minutes on that work just to have it disappear on one page)

I need to quote you for all that hard work

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

“Sometimes, when the team is not playing well and you get a lot of those points at the end of year when the games are meaningless, it doesn’t really mean much,” Benning


"He was fresher too, I think that makes a difference on the back-to-back," RGW said. "He didn’t play, so he had better legs which I think helped him.

"Hopefully it gives him confidence, so that when he is in it helps him." Willie D

 

[LiquidSnake]

“Sometimes, when the team is not playing well and you get a lot of those points at the end of year when the games are meaningless, it doesn’t really mean much,†Benning


"He was fresher too, I think that makes a difference on the back-to-back," RGW said. "He didn’t play, so he had better legs which I think helped him.

"Hopefully it gives him confidence, so that when he is in it helps him." Willie D

Pretty stupid quotes.

Doesn't leave much confidence in hoping we have success going forward with these morons at the helm.

 

[TheWanderer]

being forced to play kassian due to a last minute burrows injury and having no other option isn't exactly "working relentlessly at making kassian a real NHLer."

great that vey is trying real hard and giving it 100%, same with dorsett. you know who else try real hard? ALL the players in the AHL. effort can only get you so far, at what point does result matters? kassian have been great offensively lately, helping the team outscore their opponents (which is how you win hockey games last time i check), and he get benched for a waiver wire pick up? i'm sure mcmillian works his butt off, he's not going to help the team win the way kassian can, thats for sure.

Every question you asked has been beaten to death. Do I really need to summarize this entire thread in one post?

Kassian is getting benched because the coach is sick and tired of Kassian taking days off. In any trade job, if you are lazy -most of the time- you won't be there anymore. Kassian is lucky that what he is, even when not playing, is seen as an asset. If he weren't under contract, he'd be gone for the simple reason that his indifference is frustrating and -frankly- insulting. I'll take this in the direction that arsmaster took it: I relate myself to the coach because I understand - as a worker of the trades - what accountability is. Kassian is being held accountable.

Then there's the retorts:
- Sedin makes the same mistakes. Yeah, and how many points has Henrik ****ing Sedin put up since Kassian entered the NHL?

- Vey is daddy's boy. OR... Vey has put up more points than Kassian. He's a rookie who is the same age. He makes similar mistakes. He has a different set of tools (right now, the one that matters is that he plays C), but one could hardly make a case that either of these players is better than the other at this point in time. So why is Vey's leash longer? Because he gives it his all every game, and he does what he's told. He's not the greatest at what he does, but that's fine because he is green. Most importantly, he doesn't frustrate the hell out of his coach by not giving a ****.

- Dorsett gets no results and has some of the worst numbers on the team lately. Well, he was getting strong results earlier in the season and perhaps he's being rewarded for that. Objectively speaking, he has certainly been given way too many offensive opportunities lately. I think that, if we are really going to discuss Dorsett in the Kassian thread, then he is the perfect example of why Kassian is getting frequently benched and lacking opportunities. Dorsett gives beyond 100%. He is an easy guy for the coach to want to put on the ice. Him getting the offensive opportunities is - if anything - something to be said about the lack of quality forwards on this team. Kassian should be there - but that's a result of this problem between Kassian and the coach.

- McMillan is waiver fodder.. He certainly is. He also plays center, and is a defensive one to boot. We happen to have a plethora of injured defensive players right now. Burrows, Richardson, Bonino are all defensive forwards. Edler, Tanev, Corrado... defensemen. Yep. Let's see whay we have in this defensive CENTER, shall we?


Now, I'm not saying any of what is happening is best case scenario. I'm not saying Willie is right and devoid of criticism. I'm just saying that I can relate to the way he is thinking. Nobody would handle things in the exact same way, and nobody can say he is or is not getting results with his methods. Consider this:

Last game, Kassian was buzzing to begin with. Rather than keep him in the bottom 6, Willie has caught onto a trend. Kassian is trying this game because of the benching. He is playing hard because he -perhaps- feels rewarded to be playing. So Willie rewards him by playing with the Sedins - look what happens. He scored two goals.

Looking at it objectively, Kassian is responding. I'm much happier now, with Kassian, than I was before this benching sequence happened. Whether or not Kassian's elevated play is a result of the benching is something we will only ever know if we visit an alternate universe. People who make claims either way are bearing the standard of their agenda, and aren't worth regarding in any manner.

 

[TheWanderer]

MIGHT AS WELL PUT Mr.Canucklehead's POST ON THE FIRST PAGE FOR EVERYBODY TO READ.

I debated whether or not to post this in the Willie thread or the Kassian thread, and I decided on here.

Much has been made about how Kassian's benching seems to be the direct result of Willie Desjardins' (or possibly Jim Benning's) issues with Kassian's game. However, it would seem that the two of them are hardly alone in identifying issues in Kassian's game and, perhaps more importantly, Kassian's game preparation.

Brad Richardson was one such player to comment on it:

Quote:
“He’s hilarious and you want to be around him. But you need to be ready for games, too. I’m not saying that was an issue, but as you get older you learn better how to prepare and for a guy like him, he needs to learn to pull it in. It’s not like he’s doing a bad job, it’s just that you have to improve and not take a while to get into a game — you’re in the game right away.” Good stuff here from Ben Kuzma. [The Province]
Source: http://vansunsportsblogs.com/2014/11...n-hanzal-goal/

If Richardson isn't a player that holds enough clout on the team (or amongst the fanbase) to critique Kassian's game, than the team's Captain, Henrik Sedin, also offered his input on the matter.

Quote:
“We’ve all seen what Kass can do — he’s big, he’s strong,” Sedin said long after Tuesday’s game. “I compare him to Todd Bertuzzi when he was here, the size and the skill. But this is the NHL — it’s not an easy league. You have to be able to play against the best. You have to be able to play in your own end. You can’t turn the puck over in certain areas. It’s not junior. If you make a big mistake, it usually costs you a game.

“I feel bad for him because there’s a lot of pressure on him to score and be a certain type of player. But he needs to feel like he can just be good, doesn’t need to be great. Just be good and make plays. But he’s going to have to start over and show everyone that he can play.”
Source: http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/h...#ixzz3SPCbNhgy

My opinion - and interpretation - of these remarks from two veterans on the team, is that it's not as simple as Kassian puts up some points, makes some brainfarts in a game, and the coach benches him. Those brain farts - and how they could correspondingly cost the team points in the standings - catch the attention of his teammates. I don't think I would categorize either Richardson or Henrik's comments as being frustrated, but I do think that their opinions on Kassian's shortcomings might just have something to do with Willie Desjardins' treatment (re: making Kassian a healthy scratch on various nights) of Zack Kassian.

Now, what does this mean for Zack going forward? There are two divergent theories as to what the team's plans for Kassian are, and they are pretty apparent. 1) They plan to retain and develop Kassian, or 2) They plan to deal Kassian at the soonest opportunity. If the plan was Option 2, I - like many Canuck fans - would be pretty frustrated at how this has all played out, as they have damaged Kassian's value both as an on-ice and off-ice product with this treatment.

If, however, the plan is to proceed with Option 1, then I think that perhaps some patience is required as the Canucks continue to develop Kassian. He's a fan favorite and rightfully so; Todd Bertuzzi was a ridiculously frustrating player before he broke out, because you would see flashes of what he could do when he wanted to, but those games would be sandwiched between bunches of games where his play was defined by indifferent play.

Kassian has had a similar tenure as a Canuck. We've been treated to glimpses of his puckhandling skill, fluid skating, crushing checks and the rare ability to intimidate the opposition and scrap some tough customers. It's a rare combination of talent he possesses, and the fanbase recognizes that. But (again, assuming Option 1 is the plan) it is the job of the Canucks' brain trust to enhance those strengths by ironing out the weaknesses in his game. Namely the defensive brain farts and periodic indifferent play. Each time Desjardins' has scratched Kassian, he has come back into the lineup and hit the score sheet immediately. Is it a coincidence that Kassian seems to play harder when he feels like he has to prove something?

Comparisons are going to be made to Linden Vey and Desjardins' treatment of him. I will admit some frustration in the standards being applied here, but consideration does need to be given to the fact that the two play different positions and showcase different strengths and weaknesses. There are criticisms to be made of Vey, but his effort level - IMO - isn't one of them, and that seems to be one of the biggest issue that the Canucks' management, coaching staff, and even players have with Kassian.

It also bears mentioning that Vey hasn't escaped watching games from the pressbox either. The "what have you done for me lately" version of this, however, has seen Kassian sitting more often - this again could be due to the players' positions. The Canucks are missing two centers in Bonino and Richardson, and can scarcely afford to bench another. Kassian, on the other hand, is an easier victim of a numbers game when it comes to wingers.

In summary - Kassian's treatment, IMO, is not just the byproduct of Willie Desjardins disliking him as a player, or him playing favorites. Clearly some of Kassian's blemishes have been noted by his teammates, and those teammates are going to talk with both each other and the coaching staff. If the plan is to retain Kassian, then it makes sense to work with him on fixing those shortcomings to make him a better player in the eyes of both the coaches and his teammates. One of the biggest accolades that Willie Desjardins had as a coach when he was hired here was his ability to work with and develop younger players. Some benefit of the doubt may be needed here while he works with Kassian.

 

[absolute garbage]

points last 20:

H. Sedin - 18
D. Sedin - 16
Vrbata - 11
Richardson - 10
Horvat - 10
Kassian - 9
Matthias - 9
Higgins - 9
Burrows - 8
Hansen - 8
Vey - 7
Kenins - 6
Bonino - 5
Dorsett - 4
McMillan - 0?

(didn't spend 10 minutes on that work just to have it disappear on one page)

I assume Kassian has not played all these 20 games? EDIT oh I see now. Never mind. Also his minutes are at the bottom with no PP time of course.

And yeah, those comments are just a joke. Haven't seen a player treated like this in a long time. Hoping he is traded so he can get into a fair organization and have a fresh start.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Been discussed.

Was discussed when he was healthy to play and scratched in late December.

It's no coincidence the apologists gravitate to this when we're talking about 2 months ago. Things change.

Preach it.

Begging your pardon, arsmaster, but I don't fall entirely into either a favorable position of the treatment of Kassian nor an overly negative one. Attempting to paint me as an apologist while offering little insight of your own isn't going to do anything constructive for the conversation.

You guys actually think McMillan being in the lineup ahead of Kass makes sense? Please respond to this question if it's the only thing you respond to.

I would take Kassian in the lineup over McMillan every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays.

Making the team worse to teach lessons is crap coaching. I'm shocked so many people excuse it.

This is a different point, and one that I don't particularly agree on. To send a message to a player, sometimes that player will need to be benched. On some occasions, that will result in a lesser player dressing. Kassian is hardly the first (nor will he be the last) example of a talented player getting scratched in favour of a lesser one, and Willie Desjardins is not the worst (not the best) coach to make such a decision.

Would've been relevant two months ago.

Would you care to elaborate on why my point would have been relevant at that time, and not relevant now?

Good post.

You're also going to have to consider another possibility. Ever wonder why pregame interviews all sound very similar? Or post game for that matter? Most of the time the players are just echoing the sentiments of the coaching staff, the game plan if you will.

If Willy is constantly on Kassians case about his defensive play ( nothing wrong with that ) and tells Zack he won't see time unless he corrects it ( or his work ethic etc ) it wouldn't be hard to see why the players would adopt that as the reason he isn't playing.

It'd very natural and most likely the case here. I think the players want him to do well and are frustrated with the situation too. I'm sure they feel for him, and even if they don't agree, I'm sure they try and preach to him the same stuff the coach does to get him in their good book.

That's an interesting point, but one that I would counter with the fact that Richardson and Henrik have broken script from typical answers by voicing their thoughts on Kassian's ongoing struggles to stay on the roster. If they were following the usual modus operandi, they wouldn't have uttered a peep about a teammate. That's a job usually reserved for the coach or GM. But they both chose to do so in this situation, leading me to believe that they have arrived at some of the same conclusions the coaching staff and management have, and - like them - are trying to determine the best way to get that through to Kassian.

I've heard enough of what Benning and Desjardins want him to become and I think they are brutally wasting an asset. If It's McMillan sure, tell him to run around aimlessly like Dorsett. He should be emulating that kind of player.

If I'm working with kassian I'd rather they stress him to keep his feet moving, stay close to the Puck and engaged in the play. Use your skill when you get it downlow ( example - I'd tell him to take an extra split second to lift the puck or bring it back to your forehand on wrap arounds, because he creates separation and has time ) and go hard to the net. This guy has a ton of potential and they are completely wasting it chaining him to the 3rd/4th line and telling him to emulate Dorsett. I'm all for hard work but I'd rather they work to his strengths, not turn him into something far less valuable.

I'd be inclined to agree with your assessment here (let offensive prospects focus on offensive hockey), because nothing builds confidence for a player more than scoring goals and contributing on the scoresheet. Blocking shots, finishing checks, safely clearing pucks, etc - ask any player and my opinion is that they would feel that contributing to a goal is a more rewarding and confidence-inspiring action.

However, we aren't NHL coaches. It's easy to sit here and say what I would do, but I could be completely off base.

He didn't mention 3 coaches though.

Would have to edit the 3 coaches in there somewhere.

I didn't mention 3 coaches because I don't think that's a relevant point at this time. Again, I would question whether or not you intend to add something constructive to this conversation?

 

[LiquidSnake]

Those comments from Richardson are hilarious. Ya, follow Richardsons path of not being a impact player.

Henriks bs about responsibility in his own end and not making bad giveaways is equally laughable. They make some of the riskiest and stupid passes that lead to odd man rushes. Almost every game this occurs.

They've almost always had a def responsible winger with them to compensate for their defensive games. More so since they became the first line.

In regards to Vey, there's no rationale of trotting him out on the Pp1 aside from the fact he's Willies boy and a Jimbo acquisition. Had they acquired Kassian, he'd be getting every opportunity to succeed. To a nauseating degree such as what we're seeing with Vey.

 

[y2kcanucks]

points last 20:

H. Sedin - 18
D. Sedin - 16
Vrbata - 11
Richardson - 10
Horvat - 10
Kassian - 9
Matthias - 9
Higgins - 9
Burrows - 8
Hansen - 8
Vey - 7
Kenins - 6
Bonino - 5
Dorsett - 4
McMillan - 0?

(didn't spend 10 minutes on that work just to have it disappear on one page)

Very misleading, especially considering some players (like Kenins) haven't even played 20 games. PPG in the past 20 games might be more valid, although I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve.

 

[LiquidSnake]

In the final 5 minutes of the game, you had Kass, Sedins and Vrbata on the ice.

They applied some great pressure and Kass def did not look out of place or like a deer in the headlights. He was calm, collected and making good plays in the O zone.

So I'm not sure why that didn't warrant him being out there afterwards.

 

[TheWanderer]

Very misleading, especially considering some players (like Kenins) haven't even played 20 games. PPG in the past 20 games might be more valid, although I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve.

Kenins and McMillan are the only cases, so it's not really a big deal. Just put *'s beside their names.

 

[I in the Eye]

"He was fresher too, I think that makes a difference on the back-to-back," RGW said. "He didn’t play, so he had better legs which I think helped him.

"Hopefully it gives him confidence, so that when he is in it helps him." Willie D

What I don't get, Willie is saying post-game that a reason that Kassian helped the team is that he had better legs. And yet, it wasn't his coaching decision to start Kassian in the game, anticipating that he would have better legs in the back-to-back. Hungry, fresh legged Kassian. Someone who I was discussing with before (who is firmly on side with Willie's decisions, and firmly not on side with Kassian (getting the short end of the stick), said that he would dress Kassian vs. NJ, because of his fresh legs... This poster came to this conclusion before the game. Makes sense. I disagreed though, because I felt that Kassian would be benched against NJ regardless of what makes sense (I didn't anticipate the Burrows injury). If Willie feels that having better legs would have helped Kassian perform (and the Canucks), why not schedule him into the line-up, and not be forced to dress him due to a last minute accident?

Or did Willie just realize that Kassian had better legs after seeing him perform so well? He performed well, so after the fact, he sees that the better legs helped. It either doesn't help build much confidence in the coach, only seeing this after the fact, or doesn't help thinking that something more is going on here than just Kassain's play. Either/or, Kassian should have been scheduled in NJ to play, and not have only played because of Burrow's injury. In a way, Willie is admitting as much. The fresher legs helped.

 

[NoShowWilly]

Very misleading, especially considering some players (like Kenins) haven't even played 20 games. PPG in the past 20 games might be more valid, although I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve.

Kenins and Mcmillan were just included as they are on the team right now. Kenins was included as a bit of a low blow to those behind him. McMillan i didn't even check. People asked for everyone's point totals over the past 20 games so i took the time to count them.

 

[arsmaster*]

Mr C. Mostly referring to the replies. "Preach it", "bang on", and "well said" are typical statements of the apologists.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. When all one side does it defend Willie at every turn it gets tiring. Did not mean to lump you in.

 

[arsmaster*]

Very misleading, especially considering some players (like Kenins) haven't even played 20 games. PPG in the past 20 games might be more valid, although I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve.

Read the last thread.

People were trying to use points in 20 to knock Kassian's inconsistency.

The poster felt the the need to point out 8 points in 9 but added points in 20 to knock him.

When his points in 20 put him 6th on the team and most definitely higher in points/60 in that frame.

 

[TheWanderer]

Mr C. Mostly referring to the replies. "Preach it", "bang on", and "well said" are typical statements of the apologists.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. When all one side does it defend Willie at every turn it gets tiring. Did not mean to lump you in.

You're responding to people who agree with him and calling them apologists. It's not a matter of clarity, it is still a failure to add to the conversation.

 

[NoShowWilly]

Read the last thread.

People were trying to use points in 20 to knock Kassian's inconsistency.

The poster felt the the need to point out 8 points in 9 but added points in 20 to knock him.

When his points in 20 put him 6th on the team and most definitely higher in points/60 in that frame.

that wasn't actually the reason i included the 9 in 20. I showed it to give a better sample size then 10 games. 8 points in 10 games shows a 64 point pace on the season. 8 points in 10 games and people believe Shawn Matthias is worth 4m a year.

 

[TheWanderer]

Read the last thread.

People were trying to use points in 20 to knock Kassian's inconsistency.

The poster felt the the need to point out 8 points in 9 but added points in 20 to knock him.

When his points in 20 put him 6th on the team and most definitely higher in points/60 in that frame.

You can take points over an entire 82 game season and it says absolutely nothing about consistency - and same goes for points per 60.

You have to go a lot more into depth - defining streaks and slumps - to be able to talk about consistency. 8 in 9 and 1 in the 11 prior is a small sample that directly outlines a lack of consistency by definition.

I don't think there should be any question that Kassian is a streaky producer. I don't think being streaky is the knock against him either. Higgins is streaky, but he hasn't been benched. I wonder why.

 

[iceburg]

So, let me get this right...guys who have managed to build solid NHL careers, some to dominance, have no insight into what it takes to go from being an immature young player who makes tonnes of mistakes to being a veteran who has developed an overall game that helps the team win.....and, management is only interested is stoking their own egos whether or not the team wins or loses...

OK...Got it...Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[JuniorNelson]

Kassian already has elite passing skills. He is scrappy and big. He has decent hands around the net. These are hard to teach.

He is close to becoming an elite playmaker. His decision process is almost there. He is learning from the Sedins. This is evident. When he reaches his potential in this area he will be among the best in the game. This is why the coaches are taking so much time with him, his upside is far and away above plumbers that hustle.

Desjardins might be the ideal guy for this. If he has Kassian breathing fire entering the playoffs, everybody will call him a genius. This could happen!

 

[arsmaster*]

You can take points over an entire 82 game season and it says absolutely nothing about consistency - and same goes for points per 60.

You have to go a lot more into depth - defining streaks and slumps - to be able to talk about consistency. 8 in 9 and 1 in the 11 prior is a small sample that directly outlines a lack of consistency by definition.

I don't think there should be any question that Kassian is a streaky producer. I don't think being streaky is the knock against him either. Higgins is streaky, but he hasn't been benched. I wonder why.

Because production doesn't matter for these coaches.

People on this board love it. I love it. But his game has hardly changed yet he's been a positive contributor to the team.

Play the kid. Points will come. He's going to give the puck away just like everyone else on the team. Take the good with the bad. Work on the bad so it gets better.

These things are impossible to improve on in the press box and the coach opens his mouth and sounds like a total idiot.

Zombo was going on an on about his education and degrees. He doesn't appear to be as intelligent as his education would suggest.

Too many people take education as intelligence. Desjardins seems to have little tact when discussing kassian.

It's why many people jump on his stupid quotes knocking the kid for scoring the teams only two goals. No praise. Just excuses. It's pathetic.

 

[iceburg]

You can take points over an entire 82 game season and it says absolutely nothing about consistency - and same goes for points per 60.

You have to go a lot more into depth - defining streaks and slumps - to be able to talk about consistency. 8 in 9 and 1 in the 11 prior is a small sample that directly outlines a lack of consistency by definition.

I don't think there should be any question that Kassian is a streaky producer. I don't think being streaky is the knock against him either. Higgins is streaky, but he hasn't been benched. I wonder why.

Because there is never any question what Higgins is going to deliver from a work ethic standpoint. Work ethic is one of the only things a player has direct control over. Confidence is less tangible. Skill - you either have it or you don't - you can build on it but it can't be taught. You can argue the strategy but it shouldn't make you wonder...