livewell68
Registered User
- Jul 20, 2007
- 8,680
- 52
Messier was never close to Lemieux's level. In 1990 Lemieux was injured and missed 21 games, but scored six fewer points than Messier and 24 fewer than Gretzky. In 1992, Lemieux missed 16 games, but led the league in scoring with 131 points, 8 points ahead of Kevin Stevens, and he was ten points ahead of Gretzky. Fourth place was Brett Hull at 109. How Messier ended up with a Hart or Pearson in his career I don't know.
Comparing Messier and Yzerman... Yzerman was 2 behind Messier in 90 and 4 behind Messier in 92. Those were the only two years from 87-88 through 93-94 where Yzerman didn't have a better (usually FAR better) points per game number. I say points per game because Yzerman posted 82 in 58 games compared to Messier's 84 in 76 in the 93-94 season. The 6-point difference is accounted for simply by the 90-91 season alone; everything else there is a bonus.
People rank Messier above Yzerman because he has six Cup rings and captained two franchises. There are even people out there who rank him as the fourth (or even third) best center of all-time. Some of those people rank him above Gordie Howe on All-Time lists. Seriously. No joke. Messier is so loved because he's the "ideal" Canadian player. He's big and strong, tough and gritty, he can play an offensive game, he's defensively responsible (but over-rated), and he's a fighter. He's also considered some kind of super-leader that takes bottom-level teams and makes them Cup winners, when the only teams he ever played on that came anywhere close to the finals were among the league's top teams.
Yzerman had the best raw statistical offensive EVER not had by someone other than Gretzky or Lemieux. That's not "potential", as you put it. He won the Pearson over Lemieux's 199 points, and was the Hart favorite most of the year until the Wings dropped out of the playoffs at the end of the year.
There were only nine 100-point scorers. They played for five teams. One of them was a defenseman (Paul Coffey) and all of the forwards on the same team were linemates. Guess which 100-point forwards didn't have a linemate in that group? Steve Yzerman and Joe Mullen. Mario Lemieux had Rob Brown, Wayne Gretzky had Bernie Nicholls, Jimmy Carson had Jari Kurri. Beyond that, Luc Robitaille scored 98, Mark Messier scored 94, and Dan Quinn scored 94. So both Lemieux and Gretzky had both their linemates outscore both of Yzerman's linemates (Gallant with 93 and MacLean with 71). Beyond that, there's Coffey in Pittsburgh with 115 and Duchesne in LA with 75. The highest scoring Detroit defenseman? Steve Chiasson with 47 points.
Also, with regards to Jagr's 1999 season... have you taken a look at his ice time? He played a RIDICULOUS amount of time that season. Comparing him to a defense-first Yzerman from that season, Jagr scored 82 ES points, 44 PP points, and 1 SH point; Yzerman had 47, 24, and 3. If Yzerman had played Jagr's ice time at his per-minute rates, he'd have posted 62 ES, 27 PP, and 1 SH. A total of 90 points, plus Selke-level defense; he was fourth in voting. If he scored 90 points, he probably wins it.
But Jagr was playing on the PP with Mario Lemieux, and he was spending a lot of time on a line with Lemieux and Francis that year, or on the second line where he wasn't seeing top defense pairings. Yzerman saw a far more difficult environment than Jagr, Lemieux, Gretzky, Esposito, or Orr in their respective peak offensive stretches.
With the argument that Yzerman was left off the '87 Canada Cup team? Or the argument that Keenan wanted Eric Lindros and Mark Messier instead in 1991? Yzerman being left off in 1991 was ridiculous, even if he was the worst defensive forward in the world. He was the most productive Canadian goal-scorer over the previous three seasons, and was second in points. He had no help in doing this; it was all him. His skills were not limited to playing center, and he could play scoring line or checking line (he played checking center very well in '84) so ultimately it's the fact that Yzerman was left off because Keenan didn't like him. And Keenan absolutely plays favorites.
Jagr was double-shifted on SCORING lines. Yzerman was playing on both scoring and CHECKING lines. If he was double-shifted on scoring lines playing the same amount of time, he'd have been close to 200 points.
More than average? Yep. Point per game Selke contender in a low-scoring era. I guess that's a more-than-average two-way player.
How long is this list? Jagr was a pretty good skater and had some serious top-end speed at his best... but Fedorov, Bure, the Courtnalls, Coffey, Orr, Perreault, LaFontaine, Mogilny, Gartner, and even some more recent guys like Niedermayer, Cogliano, etc.
Wrong.
No. Just plain no.
Goalies were outright afraid of Yzerman's shooting ability when he was on the ice, even though he rarely had anyone to work with and they could focus on him.
Jagr might have more raw skill, but he wasn't a better player.
Again, this is incorrect. Lemieux/Francis/Jagr played a good chunk together at ES.
Best player? Or best scorer?
Yep, it speaks it the fact he had a great offensive season and nearly won what has effectively become the "best forward" award, except when there are truly outstanding (or hyped) goalies or defensemen.
I personally rank Jagr fourth, behind Lemieux, Konstantinov, and Fedorov.
Although I may be biased towards Jagr, all I wrote is fact. You on the other hand are showing the biggest Red Wings homerism I have ever seen.
Konstantinov better than Jagr? That's a joke.
THN (The Hockey News) ranked Lemieux no. 1 in 1995-96 and guess who was number 2? Jagr. not Fedorov or Konstantinov.
Do you know what the 1995-96 Red Wings team will always be remembered for? The biggest choke job in NHL history. To win 60 games and not win the Cup.
BTW you keep calling Yzerman defense first. Yzerman wasn't defense first at all until Bowman showed up. Two-way and Yzerman did not mix in the 80's. Stop with your revisionist history.
Jagr had 149 Pts and was + 31 in 1995-96. Fedorov had 107 Pts and was +49 playing on the best regular season team in the NHL.
The difference in scoring is way too great no matter how well Fedorov was defensively. If Fedorov was so great, he would have been nominated for the Hart.
Let' say Fedorov had won the Selke award and scored 120 Pts then it would be closer in scoring to say maybe Fedorov's two-way game makes up for the scoring gap. Jagr outscored Fedorov by 42 Pts, too big a difference.
From 1994-95 to 2000-01, Jagr was either the best or second best forward in the NHL quite easily.
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