Yzerman

[Syckle78]

Why doesn’t Yzerman get the same benefit of the doubt that some other all-time greats get when it comes to injuries? There a lot of talk about how much greater some players would have been if their careers were not cut short by injury or if they had been healthy for their entire career. Yzerman clearly does not this same treatment on this board when ranking the best players of all time. I think it is completely overlooked that he struggled with injuries the majority of his career since the time he wrecked his knee on the goalpost against buffalo.

This is not talked about though; it is like people think he was healthy from the time that happened till his epic performance in the 2002 playoffs. We hear about Mario’s back, Bure and Orr’s knees, Forsberg’s maladies etc., etc. But, through the 90s Yzerman struggled with injuries, except he played through them and remained a ppg+ player and become very good on defense. Is it overlooked because he played and didn’t miss huge time in the 90’s? Because, they didn’t cut his career short?

I bring this up because I cannot understand how he is so underrated all time. Him being ranked 36th on this forum just boggles my mind. He is ranked 6th ALL TIME in points and has every excuse every other player has had for not having more; bad linemates at his offensive peak pre-injuries, injuries, becoming a dominate defensive player, sacrificing for the team to win, and missing games due to work stoppages.

So tell me, why is he ranked so low? Because he does not have trophy case of individual awards playing behind Wayne and Mario? Because he was not lucky enough to have a dominate team early on like Crosby has had for instant success? The dude was just flat out dominant in anything he chose and was a tremendous leader and the cornerstone of a franchise that went from completely inept to being contenders year in and year out.

Yes, I am I am a huge Yzerman fan and yeah he has been talked about a lot here. I read tons of the views on him by posters in this forum and it doesn’t make sense he is ranked so low.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't why you think this forum gives Forsberg the benefit of the doubt and not Yzerman, when Yzerman is ranked 36th and Forsberg is ranked 65th, even though both probably peaked at similar levels.

Seems to me that the voters took the longevity and injury history of both players into account.

 

[canucks4ever]

I would agree that players fom the 70's tend to get a free pass for short primes like bobby clarke and bryan trottier for example, i just cant see either of them above sakic on all time lists, yet they are always above him, even though his career is better and he creams them in the playoffs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I would agree that players fom the 70's tend to get a free pass for short primes like bobby clarke and bryan trottier for example, i just cant see either of them above sakic on all time lists, yet they are always above him, even though his career is better and he creams them in the playoffs.

The argument is that they both peaked higher than Sakic.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to rank Sakic over both of them.

 

[canucks4ever]

The argument is that they both peaked higher than Sakic.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to rank Sakic over both of them.

Trottier's 1979 is better than sakic's 2001 or yzerman's 1989, i have to disagree.

Peak hart voting is one part of the argument, offense, longevity and playoffs eventually have to be factored in and sakic creams them in all 3 caegories. But i forgot, this is hfboards, we only use certain arguments if it favours the player.

I mean after all, arent we ranking howe above lemieux because of his playoffs and longevity, he certainly doesnt have the peak edge.
Jagr and sakic really should be higher on all time lists.

 

[pdd]

A lot of people forget that Yzerman's knee was absolutely wrecked in a hit BEFORE his 155 point season. Before that he had been one of the league's fastest skaters. How high does he go if his knee isn't taken out? 170? 190? How long does his prime last? Maybe he's winning the Art Ross instead of Jagr in the 90s?

Yzerman is the perfect example of a player who had an amazingly high peak, who also had a great deal of longevity, but who was not able to maintain that peak play over his career due to injuries that would have kept most other players out of games. Over the last four years of his career Yzerman averaged 52 games per season. Ten years prior his knee wasn't in much better shape. He simply played through it. What if you take off those 30 games per season from 94-95 (18 for the lockout year) through 99-00 and assume that's how many "extra" games Yzerman played that other players would have missed. 168 games. If we remove those games, assuming that games where he was hindered by injury resulted in no points, and then project his PPG over the remaining games (1346) over his actual total (1514) it results in 778 goals and 1974 points. He's 118 goals behind Gretzky, and in excellent health in our hypothetical situation. What do you think the chances are that he passes Gretzky? If he's healthy, pretty good. In fact, he likely already would have long ago as his goal scoring dramatically decreased as his knee injuries took more of a toll.

If I'm making an All-Star team with three forward slots, two defense positions, and one goaltender slot to represent the period from 1980 to 2005, do you know who I'd choose?

Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Nicklas Lidstrom, Raymond Bourque, and Dominik Hasek

 

[Hardyvan123]

A lot of people forget that Yzerman's knee was absolutely wrecked in a hit BEFORE his 155 point season. Before that he had been one of the league's fastest skaters. How high does he go if his knee isn't taken out? 170? 190? How long does his prime last? Maybe he's winning the Art Ross instead of Jagr in the 90s?

Yzerman is the perfect example of a player who had an amazingly high peak, who also had a great deal of longevity, but who was not able to maintain that peak play over his career due to injuries that would have kept most other players out of games. Over the last four years of his career Yzerman averaged 52 games per season. Ten years prior his knee wasn't in much better shape. He simply played through it. What if you take off those 30 games per season from 94-95 (18 for the lockout year) through 99-00 and assume that's how many "extra" games Yzerman played that other players would have missed. 168 games. If we remove those games, assuming that games where he was hindered by injury resulted in no points, and then project his PPG over the remaining games (1346) over his actual total (1514) it results in 778 goals and 1974 points. He's 118 goals behind Gretzky, and in excellent health in our hypothetical situation. What do you think the chances are that he passes Gretzky? If he's healthy, pretty good. In fact, he likely already would have long ago as his goal scoring dramatically decreased as his knee injuries took more of a toll.

If I'm making an All-Star team with three forward slots, two defense positions, and one goaltender slot to represent the period from 1980 to 2005, do you know who I'd choose?

Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Steve Yzerman, Nicklas Lidstrom, Raymond Bourque, and Dominik Hasek

Sure that's your opinion but you are also forgetting that Yzerman wasn't anything special defensively to start his career and if you want to play the injury card I would take Forsberg at his peak other Yzerman and maybe Lindros as well.

 

[pdd]

Sure that's your opinion but you are also forgetting that Yzerman wasn't anything special defensively to start his career and if you want to play the injury card I would take Forsberg at his peak other Yzerman and maybe Lindros as well.

Yzerman was not a star defensively, but he was a good defensive forward.

People often refer to "Yzerman changing his game" in the 90s. What they don't know about that is that Bowman wanted Yzerman to change his game and become an elite defensive forward as part of his changes in the style the team played; the idea being that Yzerman's style would affect the whole team. Yzerman actually played more conservatively than Bowman wanted at first; this resulted in terrible offensive numbers during the 94-95 season.

But he was always solid defensively. As for Forsberg or Lindros... or I know Trottier and Sakic were mentioned earlier. How many of them peaked high enough that they were considered as good or better than prime Gretzky and Lemieux? Yzerman did. He won the Pearson because other players considered him the best player in Lemieux's most productive season. He's one of only three players to hit 155. I'll give you one guess as to who the other two are.

Only three times in NHL history has a player cleared 140 without another 100+ point player on the team. Wayne Gretzky (164) in 1980-81, Mario Lemieux (141) in 1985-86, and Steve Yzerman (155) in 1988-89.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Sure that's your opinion but you are also forgetting that Yzerman wasn't anything special defensively to start his career and if you want to play the injury card I would take Forsberg at his peak other Yzerman and maybe Lindros as well.

I would never take a peak Forsberg over a peak Yzerman. Excluding Mario and Wayne, Yzerman was a full 20% above the rest of the NHL in offense - something Forsberg never approached in his best year.

For the times, Yzerman was a very good all-around player. He played unbelievably high minutes, killed penalties, fought, had a lot of grit and was double-shifted on checking lines against opposing teams best forwards.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I would never take a peak Forsberg over a peak Yzerman. Excluding Mario and Wayne, Yzerman was a full 20% above the rest of the NHL in offense - something Forsberg never approached in his best year.

For the times, Yzerman was a very good all-around player. He played unbelievably high minutes, killed penalties, fought, had a lot of grit and was double-shifted on checking lines against opposing teams best forwards.

Forsbergs regular season stats never showed it but I would take a peak Forsberg over Yzerman and I like Stevie Y alot.

Forsberg's goal scoring increase and total play in the playoffs was simply amazing and he was very difficult to play against and was a sandpaper type of player.

It's not like the difference between the 2 is huge or anything it's just a personal preference and the same would go for Trottier for me (strictly talking peak here).

 

[pdd]

Forsbergs regular season stats never showed it but I would take a peak Forsberg over Yzerman and I like Stevie Y alot.

Forsberg's goal scoring increase and total play in the playoffs was simply amazing and he was very difficult to play against and was a sandpaper type of player.

It's not like the difference between the 2 is huge or anything it's just a personal preference and the same would go for Trottier for me (strictly talking peak here).

I wonder if you ever saw a peak Yzerman. Because towards the end of the 90s, Fedorov, Forsberg, Sakic, and Yzerman were all high end centers on the Wings and Avs. It was hard to say in any given year on any given day who was #1, #2, #3, #4. But one big difference? Forsberg, Sakic, and Fedorov were playing at their peak. Yzerman was not. Yzerman had passed his peak, and was playing through injuries and fighting to win. But he was still as good; or almost as good, depending on how you view it, as a prime Forsberg.

Arguing that Forsberg's prime was better than Yzerman's is like saying Chelios' prime is as good as Bourque's prime.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I wonder if you ever saw a peak Yzerman. Because towards the end of the 90s, Fedorov, Forsberg, Sakic, and Yzerman were all high end centers on the Wings and Avs. It was hard to say in any given year on any given day who was #1, #2, #3, #4. But one big difference? Forsberg, Sakic, and Fedorov were playing at their peak. Yzerman was not. Yzerman had passed his peak, and was playing through injuries and fighting to win. But he was still as good; or almost as good, depending on how you view it, as a prime Forsberg.

Arguing that Forsberg's prime was better than Yzerman's is like saying Chelios' prime is as good as Bourque's prime.

This simply isn't true, Yzerman's peak offense came before he became a good 2 way player, Forsberg was clearly a better player than Yzerman from 95 on (Forsberg entered the league that year and Yzerman was 29)

 

[canucks4ever]

Yzerman was cut from team canada because keenan didnt consider him as a two hundred foot player.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Stevie always takes a lot of heat because of his early defense which, was not nearly as bad as some like to make out.

The thing of it was not that Stevie didn't want to play D, it's that he was asked to score...a lot.
That was his role with those late 80's/early 90's Wings.
As his team got better, he no longer had to carry the offense on his own and his change in focus reflected this.

Personally, I have Yzerman ranked just ahead of Sakic and both are quite a bit up on Forsberg overall.
I always find it funny how Sakic seems to get a pass for only being a scorer in the beginning but Yzerman doesn't.
Especially considering that when both players were playing predominantly offense only roles early in their careers, Yzerman was clearly the better.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Stevie always takes a lot of heat because of his early defense which, was not nearly as bad as some like to make out.

The thing of it was not that Stevie didn't want to play D, it's that he was asked to score...a lot.
That was his role with those late 80's/early 90's Wings.
As his team got better, he no longer had to carry the offense on his own and his change in focus reflected this.

Personally, I have Yzerman ranked just ahead of Sakic and both are quite a bit up on Forsberg overall.
I always find it funny how Sakic seems to get a pass for only being a scorer in the beginning but Yzerman doesn't.
Especially considering that when both players were playing predominantly offense only roles early in their careers, Yzerman was clearly the better.

I have them ranked this way overall, my above post were specifically referring to peak and yes Sakic grew into his defensive reputation and really benefited form the emergence of Forsberg as well.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yzerman was cut from team canada because keenan didnt consider him as a two hundred foot player.

That's pretty damning evidence against the position that Yzerman was always good defensively.

 

[pdd]

That's pretty damning evidence against the position that Yzerman was always good defensively.

Yzerman being left off the 87 Canada Cup team could be considered a snub by some, but he scored 90 points in the 86-87 season and was supposed to play the scoring-line role. That team had Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Gilmour, and Hawerchuk among centers who finished in the top ten in scoring. Yzerman's chances were slim to begin with.

 

[Rhiessan71]

That's pretty damning evidence against the position that Yzerman was always good defensively.

Not really, Stevie just wasn't good enough or not known to be good enough defensively at that time to play the role Iron Mike was looking for.
Take a real good look at that team and you see pretty quickly that offensive centers were already accounted for in spades.
If we're talking about '87, Stevie was just on the cusp of really breaking out. '91 was a bit different and it's kinda sad Stevie wasn't there but again, the role Keenan needed was not the kind Yzerman had played to this point.

It's never been about Yzerman not being good defensively, it's about what his team needed of him. Pick any year and you see that Yzerman did what he was asked. If they needed him to score, he did, if they needed him to check, he did and the biggest thing is that he did either as well or better than almost anyone else.
Anyone who remembers Yzerman vs Gretzky and Oilers in the playoffs, will remember Stevie being one of the best players for either team.
He went head to head with Wayne and out performed him and even kept him in check.
Unfortunately, the rest of his team was not even close to the rest of the Oilers.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not really, Stevie just wasn't good enough or not known to be good enough defensively at that time to play the role Iron Mike was looking for.
Take a real good look at that team and you see pretty quickly that offensive centers were already accounted for in spades.
If we're talking about '87, Stevie was just on the cusp of really breaking out. '91 was a bit different and it's kinda sad Stevie wasn't there but again, the role Keenan needed was not the kind Yzerman had played to this point.

It's never been about Yzerman not being good defensively, it's about what his team needed of him. Pick any year and you see that Yzerman did what he was asked. If they needed him to score, he did, if they needed him to check, he did and the biggest thing is that he did either as well or better than almost anyone else.
Anyone who remembers Yzerman vs Gretzky and Oilers in the playoffs, will remember Stevie being one of the best players for either team.
He went head to head with Wayne and out performed him and even kept him in check.
Unfortunately, the rest of his team was not even close to the rest of the Oilers.

But Keenan selected Dale Hawerchuk for the very same role that he turned Yzerman down for, and Hawerchuk never played that role in the NHL, right?

 

[pdd]

But Keenan selected Dale Hawerchuk for the very same role that he turned Yzerman down for, and Hawerchuk never played that role in the NHL, right?

Hawerchuk played right wing with Lemieux and Gretzky. There was no defense involved. Hawerchuk was an established 40-50 goal, 100+ point player who was only a year or two removed from a 130-point season. Perfectly reasonable pick.

As has been said before; it was a numbers game. Yzerman lost because he was a scoring line player without the high numbers.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

But Keenan selected Dale Hawerchuk for the very same role that he turned Yzerman down for, and Hawerchuk never played that role in the NHL, right?

It's also possible Keenan is not omniscient.

Yzerman had a checking line role for Team Canada in 1985, and was praised by Larionov for helping Team Canada win 3-1 and shutting down the KLM line.

 

[Big Phil]

Just so we're clear, I take a prime Yzerman over a prime Forsberg. Forsberg wouldn't have won the Art Ross against Gretzky or Lemieux either, but he wouldn't have come as close as Yzerman did in 1989. Or 1990. You have to remember, Yzerman was something to behold at his peak. From 1987-'93 he had at least 100 points and for the most part at least 50 goals. He was spectacular on the ice and while he wasn't anything special defensively he was such a target and the central focus when he was on the ice that you can argue he didn't need to be.

I can see why he was cut from the Canada Cup in 1987. Not a hard decision. He was a 90 point guy in 1987. And while he was a surprise pick in the 1984 Canada Cup, I personally wouldn't have picked him in 1987 over a prime Denis Savard. No way. And Savard wasn't on that team either. If you are going to take a high scoring machine you may as well take one that does it better.

By 1991 Yzerman was well established as a perennial superstar and it was a poor decision for Keenan to leave him off the team. Win or not, he still should have been on that team.

But I really don't think anyone underrates Yzerman here. I don't think his injuries held him back either. Saying he was playing hurt doesn't hold a lot of weight because every player played hurt. You think Trottier didn't play hurt as well? Was he always 100%? No way. So Yzerman had a full career and wasn't the victim of very many partial seasons. He belongs where he belongs

 

[canucks4ever]

Just so we're clear, I take a prime Yzerman over a prime Forsberg. Forsberg wouldn't have won the Art Ross against Gretzky or Lemieux either, but he wouldn't have come as close as Yzerman did in 1989. Or 1990. You have to remember, Yzerman was something to behold at his peak. From 1987-'93 he had at least 100 points and for the most part at least 50 goals. He was spectacular on the ice and while he wasn't anything special defensively he was such a target and the central focus when he was on the ice that you can argue he didn't need to be.

By 1991 Yzerman was well established as a perennial superstar and it was a poor decision for Keenan to leave him off the team. Win or not, he still should have been on that team.

Are you trying to say that Yzerman in 1990 was better than forsberg ever was? I would have to disagree with that entirely. I'll take the 2003 forsberg over 1990 yzerman any day of the week. A 116 point scoring pace mixed with selke caliber game in the deadpuck era, easily beats out 127 points of 1 dimensional offense in a run n gun season. I would take forsberg's 2nd and 3rd best season over Yzerman's too. Yzerman's numbers are a product of the era.

Forsberg is also better in the playoffs, Yzerman deserves to rank higher because he was healthier, but its a myth to say his peak was on another level. This is yzerman we are talking about, not jagr and crosby.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Are you trying to say that Yzerman in 1990 was better than forsberg ever was? I would have to disagree with that entirely. I'll take the 2003 forsberg over 1990 yzerman any day of the week. A 116 point scoring pace mixed with selke caliber game in the deadpuck era, easily beats out 127 points of 1 dimensional offense in a run n gun season. I would take forsberg's 2nd and 3rd best season over Yzerman's too. Yzerman's numbers are a product of the era.

Forsberg is also better in the playoffs, Yzerman deserves to rank higher because he was healthier, but its a myth to say his peak was on another level. This is yzerman we are talking about, not jagr and crosby.

If Yzerman's numbers truly are a product of his era, then how is it that once he was past his prime AND playing defense first hockey later on in the DPE, he was still a point per game player?
Sorry, something doesn't jive with that statement.
That and the eye test, before he had his second knee surgery, he was one of the most dynamic players in the league. Only Savard and Lemieux rivaled him for getting fans out of their seats.

And better in the playoffs? Have to disagree. There's a 3 year stretch in the 80's where he had 32 points in 25 games on Detroit teams that were only in the playoffs because of Yzerman. That's including the previously mentioned '87 where he carried them to the Conf final and went head to head with #99.
Then, at age 37, playing on a knee with little to no cartilage, he once again chips in with 23 points in 23 games and prolly should of taken a second Conn Smythe home over Lidstrom to boot.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Are you trying to say that Yzerman in 1990 was better than forsberg ever was? I would have to disagree with that entirely. I'll take the 2003 forsberg over 1990 yzerman any day of the week. A 116 point scoring pace mixed with selke caliber game in the deadpuck era, easily beats out 127 points of 1 dimensional offense in a run n gun season. I would take forsberg's 2nd and 3rd best season over Yzerman's too. Yzerman's numbers are a product of the era.

Forsberg is also better in the playoffs, Yzerman deserves to rank higher because he was healthier, but its a myth to say his peak was on another level. This is yzerman we are talking about, not jagr and crosby.

I agree here, Yzerman still had better offensive stats when you adjust for season but Peter brought more to his total game than Stevie did back in his high scoring days. and while plus/minus can be misleading at times Forsbergs career playoff plus minus is truly indicative of his greatness in the post season. Yzerman is close but he is behind Peter in this regard IMO.