Yzerman Re-Defining Approach

TBL12345

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May 19, 2015
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NY, NY
First of all, we can all agree that Kucherov's contract was insanely below market. Many projected him to receive 6.0 - 6.5 million for a 6-8 year term. On the open market, perhaps he likely would have garnered even higher value.

The important takeaway, in my opinion, is the downstream effects that some GMs will take away from SY's approach this past season, particularly with respect to his handling of Drouin, Stamkos, Hedman and Kucherov. With regard to Stamkos and Hedman, the only real lesson is that if you set up something special and you have buy in from the team, then you can create an environment -- a winning culture -- in which the players genuinely want to be part of and are willing to take a pay cut to stay. Of course this is not anything different than what has been exhaustively written about the past few months.

The critical takeaway from this offseason, however, is the leverage a GM has in a market without a true threat from offer sheets. When a GM can expect that top talent will not be poached, then the strategy is becomes quite simple: make an offer that is deemed reasonable, although below market value, and stare down the player until he obliges. I get it: some will argue that this is just SY working his magic. Yet, without the threat of an offer sheet, the player has three options: (1) accept the offer, (2) reject the offer and sit at home without earning a pay check, or (3) go play in an international league. For most North Americans, the third option is unrealistic, as most will not be willing to do this.

I have not performed the research to understand when a restricted free agent will have arbitration rights, as Kucherov will reportedly have when his next contract comes up. But still, for someone like Drouin, SY will execute the same strategy. His agent will probably ask for 6.0 - 6.5M, and SY will offer a 6-8 year term for 5M or 3 year term at 4.0M. Because of the leverage SY will have without the existence of a true threat of an offer sheet, he can sit back - truly without panic - and wait for the player - in this example, Drouin - to sign the offer. Drouin already knows what it is like to sit at home and not earn a paycheck. And we all know he is not going to go play in the KHL or elsewhere in Europe. Ultimately, SY's approach shows that GMs that try to pander to their players are losing money, resources that can be spent on other players - all that really is required when dealing with a restricted free agent without arbitration rights is patience.

The NHLPA cannot be happy with the system, as constructed and executed, which allows the fair market value of player to be suppressed. One would think that the system will have to be tweaked down the road.
 
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Hoek

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May 12, 2003
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Meh. I really think the Kucherov situation was more a function of our cap space. Yzerman would've loved to give him a bigger long term deal if he could've. I think the rumors of the death of bridge deals were greatly exaggerated and we're overreacting to a very logical deal as a result.
 

TBL12345

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May 19, 2015
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I agree, we would have preferred to sign Kucherov to a deal that made both parties happy. My post, however, was intended to put pressure on the broader landscape. The point is: if a GM's hand is forced, he can take an aggressive position because the restricted free agent has absolutely no leverage, and thus can be taken advantage of. The offer Kucherov was forced to sign was almost criminal. So with Kucherov not receiving an offer sheet, it is safe to say that the practice is dead - and, in turn, restricted free agents are exposed to a risk that they will not receive anything close to fair market value (in a restricted free agent sense).
 

The Macho King

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Jun 22, 2011
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I mean this has happened dozens of times with RFAs off of ELCs. They can't do arbitration and offer sheets are rare. So often it goes right up to the season (or results in holding out like what's happening in Anaheim) for deals that make sense cap-wise. It's the bridge deal v. lock up debate. Some teams have the space to lock up so they do - and that can often pay dividends. Some don't have that space or aren't 100% sold on the player so they go for a bridge deal.
 

TBL12345

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May 19, 2015
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I mean this has happened dozens of times with RFAs off of ELCs. They can't do arbitration and offer sheets are rare. So often it goes right up to the season (or results in holding out like what's happening in Anaheim) for deals that make sense cap-wise. It's the bridge deal v. lock up debate. Some teams have the space to lock up so they do - and that can often pay dividends. Some don't have that space or aren't 100% sold on the player so they go for a bridge deal.

Again, the point is offer sheets are rare. But if there was ever a reason to offer sheet someone because they were not receiving fair market value from the current holder of their rights, Kucherov was it. Offer sheets are officially dead. And I can assure you the NHLPA will make sure to change the framework of the system in the next negotiation, as the current system allows GMs to collude to suppress player value.
 

Hoek

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May 12, 2003
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The owners would rather give the PA just about any other concession than that one I would think. Young talent getting offer sheeted left and right would really wreak havoc on any sort of rebuilding and unfairly punish great drafting and management. RFA is RFA for a reason. Lowering the UFA age again would be a more reasonable response than letting teams raid each other. But even right now, if you want to get paid a ton of money, just don't let your team buy out any of your UFA years.
 

tjs*

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Mar 18, 2016
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Again, the point is offer sheets are rare. But if there was ever a reason to offer sheet someone because they were not receiving fair market value from the current holder of their rights, Kucherov was it. Offer sheets are officially dead. And I can assure you the NHLPA will make sure to change the framework of the system in the next negotiation, as the current system allows GMs to collude to suppress player value.

Rumor was at least one team was talking to Kucherov about an offer sheet, and if he was really unhappy with what Yzerman offered him it would have been a simple matter for him to request one from pretty much any team with the cap space to give him one. Kuch wanted to stay in Tampa more than he wanted to break the bank right now - it's that simple. Let's see what happens next year with Drouin before we declare the offer sheet dead.
 

TBL12345

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May 19, 2015
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The owners would rather give the PA just about any other concession than that one I would think. Young talent getting offer sheeted left and right would really wreak havoc on any sort of rebuilding and unfairly punish great drafting and management. RFA is RFA for a reason. Lowering the UFA age again would be a more reasonable response than letting teams raid each other. But even right now, if you want to get paid a ton of money, just don't let your team buy out any of your UFA years.

I agree. But the NHLPA currently bargained for the option. It should just be eliminated under the next CBA, as there is no reason to have a tool that is left dormant. And it underscores the underbelly of informal, ad hoc, backroom deals between the GMs.
 

BoltSTH

Registered User
Sep 4, 2008
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Tampa
Offer sheets are rare because, to get top end talent you have to offer enough so the home team does not match, and in a cap world 4 st rounders, or even 2 1st s, a second and a third are precious assets.

If the home team matches, that sets the bar for all RFA higher, screwing all the other GM.
 

TBL12345

Registered User
May 19, 2015
133
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NY, NY

In the $5,478,986 to $7,305,316 range, presumably the relevant one for purposes of discussing the Kucherov situation, the team making the offer sheet would have had to forfeit a 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. Kucherov surely is worth those assets. Of course SY would have met the offer - Kucherov likely would only have been exposed at the next tier. Even so, an offer was not made by the other GMs because they knew SY would have met the offer; and it only would have caused resentment from SY. The point, however, is that this scenario exposes a completely broken, worthless system.
 

Fro

Cheatin on CBJ w TBL
Mar 11, 2009
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but remember if its a 7 yr deal, I believe its the total of the contract divided by 5 yrs so almost any deal that a team would sign him to, becomes 4 1sts...

so a 7 yr $42m contract becomes 8.4m / yr for purposes of the offersheet...which is 4 1sts
 

tjs*

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Mar 18, 2016
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0
In the $5,478,986 to $7,305,316 range, presumably the relevant one for purposes of discussing the Kucherov situation, the team making the offer sheet would have had to forfeit a 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounder. Kucherov surely is worth those assets. Of course SY would have met the offer - Kucherov likely would only have been exposed at the next tier. Even so, an offer was not made by the other GMs because they knew SY would have met the offer; and it only would have caused resentment from SY. The point, however, is that this scenario exposes a completely broken, worthless system.

Again, how do you know that an offer wasn't made? More importantly, how do you know that Kucherov even wanted one in the first place? If he wanted more money there is no shortage of teams that would have at least given him a better deal than what he took - all he had to do was declare his interest in fielding offers either publicly or privately and he would have gotten them. The system isn't broken if Kuch turned down a better offer because he wanted to stay in Tampa, or if he never even solicited one in the first place for that reason.

And again, wait until next summer. If Drouin actually accepts a bridge then you might have a point. That's a guy who unlike Kucherov I don't see turning down a better deal out of loyalty to his team.
 

TBL12345

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May 19, 2015
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NY, NY
I think all of the media insiders would have known if one was made, as I recall hearing that someone - I seem to recall Montreal, maybe - was sniffing around. Listen, I am very happy that the situation worked out as it did. And I also agree that Kucherov would not have accepted one, as he clearly has made it known that he wanted to be in Tampa. All of this does not discount the fact that the system is rigged and not working as intended because the GMs would prefer to retain young talent without encroachment. This is great for us, a team that drafts very well. But there have been seven offer sheets made since 2000, and only one was accepted - the last one being in 2007. Those are some crazy stats. It is safe to say that the practice is effectively dormant, and that smart GMs should factor this into their negotiation strategy - SY clearly has and will continue to do so.

Regarding Drouin, I still do not envision any increased exposure of risk concerning his situation. He may not have the same allegiance that Kucherov does. But I envision the same scenario playing out with him: SY will be willing to match to a significant degree. The only way that he wouldn't match is if the offer crosses the $7.5 million threshold (1st (2), 2nd, and 3rd). If the situation was not rigged, a team would submit an offer at the $7.4 million mark, which would put SY in a precarious situation. That undoubtedly would be higher than SY is willing to pay for Drouin, but the draft compensation (1st, 2nd and 3rd) would not be enough for his projected future impact on the team. Again, however, no GM in their right mind is going to screw with SY like that.
 

Todd1a

Kucherov or prospect
Jun 19, 2014
16,505
2,803
orlando, fl
Kucherov was a perfect person to get a offer sheet and yet nobody made him a good enough offer. In a cap world draft picks are gold these days you need guys on elc contracts.
 

ultra63

Registered User
Feb 27, 2008
1,237
140
USA Today ranks top 50 people in hockey

" Steve Yzerman, Tampa Bay Lightning general manager: Although Yzerman has not won a Stanley Cup as a GM with the Lightning, he has built one of the league’s model organizations. He manages the way he played — with a calculating, determined, intelligent approach. Everyone in the sport pays attention to what Yzerman does."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...-50-most-important-people-2016-2017/91822036/
 

PaulGG

Registered User
May 15, 2011
1,872
313
Have any offer sheets happened under the current CBA? If so, how many have resulted in a RFA leaving their team? It could happen but the CBA horribly favors teams over the RFA.
 

HoseEmDown

Registered User
Mar 25, 2012
17,470
3,690
First of all, we can all agree that Kucherov's contract was insanely below market. Many projected him to receive 6.0 - 6.5 million for a 6-8 year term. On the open market, perhaps he likely would have garnered even higher value.

The important takeaway, in my opinion, is the downstream effects that some GMs will take away from SY's approach this past season, particularly with respect to his handling of Drouin, Stamkos, Hedman and Kucherov. With regard to Stamkos and Hedman, who were unrestricted free agents, the only real lesson is that if you set up something special and you have buy in from the team, then you can create an environment -- a winning culture -- in which the players genuinely want to be part of and are willing to take a pay cut to stay. Of course this is not anything different than what has been exhaustively written about the past few months.

The critical takeaway from this offseason, however, is the leverage a GM has in a market without a true threat from offer sheets. When a GM can expect that top talent will not be poached, then the strategy is becomes quite simple: make an offer that is deemed reasonable, although below market value, and stare down the player until he obliges. I get it: some will argue that this is just SY working his magic. Yet, without the threat of an offer sheet, the player has three options: (1) accept the offer, (2) reject the offer and sit at home without earning a pay check, or (3) go play in an international league. For most North Americans, the third option is unrealistic, as most will not be willing to do this.

I have not performed the research to understand when a restricted free agent will have arbitration rights, as Kucherov will reportedly have when his next contract comes up. But still, for someone like Drouin, SY will execute the same strategy. His agent will probably ask for 6.0 - 6.5M, and SY will offer a 6-8 year term for 5M or 3 year term at 4.0M. Because of the leverage SY will have without the existence of a true threat of an offer sheet, he can sit back - truly without panic - and wait for the player - in this example, Drouin - to sign the offer. Drouin already knows what it is like to sit at home and not earn a paycheck. And we all know he is not going to go play in the KHL or elsewhere in Europe. Ultimately, SY's approach shows that GMs that try to pander to their players are losing money, resources that can be spent on other players - all that really is required when dealing with a restricted free agent without arbitration rights is patience.

The NHLPA cannot be happy with the system, as constructed and executed, which allows the fair market value of player to be suppressed. One would think that the system will have to be tweaked down the road.

[MOD] You did very little research before you even began writing it. Hedman wasn't an unrestricted free agent like Stamkos was. A simple Google search will tell you a player gets arbitration rights after 4 seasons if they sign their first standard player contract at 18-20, 3 years if they sign at 21, 2 at 22-23 and 1 at 24 or older.

Why does the system with regards to offersheets need to be fixed? They don't happen because there's a lot of factors that are involved in one, not just there being a good young unsigned player out there so let's just offersheet him. The simple one is does the team have the proper draft picks available to make an offersheet? You need to have your own picks available before you can extend an offersheet, a lot your contending teams have moved future picks for immediate help so don't have the proper picks, the contenders most likely also have a capped out team so they can't afford to offersheet a player. The crap teams probably have the room and picks but the player needs to decide if an extra million or so is worth losing a lot for.

Your looking at our signings the wrong way too. The fear of offersheets isn't why we are getting players in cheap, it's the use of bridge deals that is. You can't sign every kid who did good on their ELC to big 6-8 year deals, maybe your top picks who are already playing at the highest level, your Crosby and McDavid, who you know you'll get full value from. Kucherov and Drouin aren't in that tier so shouldn't get those kind of deals. They get a bridge with good value and a big raise, Kucherov went from 750k to making 4mil more than that a year, it's a good deal for him. If you look at how SY works he's not bullying these kids into signing for less he's sticking to his pattern of making everyone who's come through our system sign a bridge after their ELC expires. Some are big raises with good value, Kucherov and some are lesser value show me, Namestnikov. Drouin should be expecting one in the 3-4mil range for 2-3 years , unless he goes ppg then a little higher AAV, and Koekkoek should get a 2 year 1.5 type deal. It's nothing to do with Yzerman suppressing the system and skirting the rules, it's just being a smarter negotiator who knows how he wants his deals constructed.
 
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TBL12345

Registered User
May 19, 2015
133
0
NY, NY
[MOD] You did very little research before you even began writing it. Hedman wasn't an unrestricted free agent like Stamkos was. A simple Google search will tell you a player gets arbitration rights after 4 seasons if they sign their first standard player contract at 18-20, 3 years if they sign at 21, 2 at 22-23 and 1 at 24 or older.

Why does the system with regards to offersheets need to be fixed? They don't happen because there's a lot of factors that are involved in one, not just there being a good young unsigned player out there so let's just offersheet him. The simple one is does the team have the proper draft picks available to make an offersheet? You need to have your own picks available before you can extend an offersheet, a lot your contending teams have moved future picks for immediate help so don't have the proper picks, the contenders most likely also have a capped out team so they can't afford to offersheet a player. The crap teams probably have the room and picks but the player needs to decide if an extra million or so is worth losing a lot for.

Your looking at our signings the wrong way too. The fear of offersheets isn't why we are getting players in cheap, it's the use of bridge deals that is. You can't sign every kid who did good on their ELC to big 6-8 year deals, maybe your top picks who are already playing at the highest level, your Crosby and McDavid, who you know you'll get full value from. Kucherov and Drouin aren't in that tier so shouldn't get those kind of deals. They get a bridge with good value and a big raise, Kucherov went from 750k to making 4mil more than that a year, it's a good deal for him. If you look at how SY works he's not bullying these kids into signing for less he's sticking to his pattern of making everyone who's come through our system sign a bridge after their ELC expires. Some are big raises with good value, Kucherov and some are lesser value show me, Namestnikov. Drouin should be expecting one in the 3-4mil range for 2-3 years , unless he goes ppg then a little higher AAV, and Koekkoek should get a 2 year 1.5 type deal. It's nothing to do with Yzerman suppressing the system and skirting the rules, it's just being a smarter negotiator who knows how he wants his deals constructed.

I am not too sure what you're arguing about. Not once did I say SY was personally suppressing the system or circumventing the rules - perhaps a re-review is in order. Your entire last paragraph wholly echoes my original point. It is the framework of the system, which has proven time and time again to not have teeth when it comes to offer sheets, that has given SY confidence in his rigid approach. I would be executing the exact same strategy if I were in his shoes. Other GMs are too quick to doll out contracts and not stick to their guns, allowing negotiations to chip away at their available resources. His methodical, calculated and well-informed approach is something that others should, and have, taken note of throughout the league. SY's level of discipline is quite astonishing - even despite his impeccable reputation - given his formal training as a player. I am very grateful and thankful we have him as our own.
 
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Leonardo87

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As much as Hose and I bunk heads he is right on the money here. Even if Drouin has an elite season he will still be bridged and should. How much determines how well he does this year. It was still an arguemet about Drouin getting a bridge but after Kuch signing one it is pretty much inevitable. Unless Drouin wants to walk.
 

TBL12345

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May 19, 2015
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As much as Hose and I bunk heads he is right on the money here. Even if Drouin has an elite season he will still be bridged and should. How much determines how well he does this year. It was still an arguemet about Drouin getting a bridge but after Kuch signing one it is pretty much inevitable. Unless Drouin wants to walk.

And where would he walk? He has no realistic options. Drouin will either sign a long term deal with an AAV that SY is satisfied with (highly unlikely). Or he will sign bridge deal that is around 3-4M and wait until free agency when he will be the one with leverage.
 

Leonardo87

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And where would he walk? He has no realistic options. Drouin will either sign a long term deal with an AAV that SY is satisfied with (highly unlikely). Or he will sign bridge deal that is around 3-4M and wait until free agency when he will be the one with leverage.

Walk back home to his parents house? Lol. I mean more like request a trade again or something, but doubt that happens. It will be a bridge deal. You know will take a long time to get done but then Drouin agrees. A bridge can only award him greater in the future, which is what Kucherov is doing. If Drouin re-signs a bridge deal of around 3 to 4 million similar to Johnson and Palat, that is about 4 million of extra cap not anticipated from this forum because of that and the Kucherov deal. If the cap even goes up just a little, there is going to be a nice amount to work with here. These guys will get their pay day but not just yet.
 

PaulGG

Registered User
May 15, 2011
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As much as Hose and I bunk heads he is right on the money here. Even if Drouin has an elite season he will still be bridged and should. How much determines how well he does this year. It was still an arguemet about Drouin getting a bridge but after Kuch signing one it is pretty much inevitable. Unless Drouin wants to walk.

Bridge is inevitable for Drouin. His beef with the team was about playing time, what line he was on and the AHL send down. Never was about money and unless something very unexpected happens he will be with us for a long time.
 

xteesy

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Jun 19, 2014
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Tampa
If Drouin requests another trade there isn't a team in the league that will touch that kid. It'll be out of mutual respect for Yzerman and setting a precedence to all the other players.

You can pull that stunt once as a 19 year old dumb-headed kid. You can't pull it twice.
 

kuch

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Sep 27, 2016
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The way Yzerman handled the Kuch contract imo will bite the lightning in the arse when his contract is up. Basically he told Kuch you are the least important player on this team, even though he has arguably been the best player the past 2 years.
 

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