Your top 10 all time list, as of the 2022 offseason

[LightningStorm]

Hey everyone, I'd be curious to see who you guys have as your top 10 all time list as of the summer of 2022. Everyone has different things they arbitrarily consider more or less important when crafting there's. Before revealing mine, I'll describe 2 ways my thought process is different from most.

1. Championships are a TEAM award. Too many people resort to ring counting with these lists, even divorcing them from context, then wonder why people like KD take a shortcut with superteams. Playoff performance is definitely important, but that's different from merely counting rings. Every player on my list has at least 2 titles though.

2. Offense and defense are NOT 50/50. When measuring superstars, offense is more important, because a single player can take the game over on that end in ways they simply can't on defense. In fact, when people say a single player can have a bigger impact in basketball than other sports, that's only really true on offense. The better scorer isn't the end all be all, but it does carry more weight for superstars, especially once we reach the top 10 all time.

Factoring those in, without further ado, here's my list:

1. Lebron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Larry Bird
8. Steph Curry
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

How does your top 10 look as of 2022?

Click to read more...

 

[Neutrinos]

Kobe's on-court value to his team simply wasn't at a level that would warrant consideration as a top 10 player of all time

Even at his peak he had nowhere near the positive impact on the court that his reputation would lead you to believe

Look at the career highs that some of his contemporaries were able to achieve:

Harden's career highs:
30.6 PER, 16.4 Win Shares, .289 WS/48, 11 BPM, 9.3 VORP

Durant's career highs:
29.8 PER, 19.2 Win Shares, .295 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 9.6 VORP

McGrady's career highs:
30.3 PER, 16.1 Win Shares, .262 WS/48, 10.5 BPM, 9.3 VORP

Chris Paul's career highs:
30 PER, 18.3 Win Shares, .292 WS/48, 11 BPM, 9.9 VORP

Garnett's career highs:
29.4 PER< 18.3 Win Shares, .272 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 10 VORP

Shaq's career highs:
30.6 PER, 18.6 Win Shares, .283 WS/48, 9.3 BPM, 9 VORP

Jokic's career highs:
32.8 PER, 15.6 Win Shares, .301 WS/48, 13.7 BPM, 9.8 VORP

Nowitzki's career highs:
28.1 PER, 17.7 Win Shares, .278 WS/48, 8.3 BPM, 7.9 VORP

Curry's career highs:
31.5 PER, 17.9 Win Shares, .318 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 9.5 VORP

LeBron's career highs:
31.7 PER, 20.3 Win Shares, .322 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, 11.8 VORP

Kobe's career highs:
28 PER, 15.3 Win Shares, .224 WS/48, 7.6 BPM, 8.0 VORP

Kobe only comes out ahead against one player, in one category. His 8.0 VORP beats Nowitzki's mark of 7.9, however, Kobe played 188 more minutes in his season, or the equivalent of about 4.5 games

Here's a list of Kobe's contemporaries who have lead the NBA in an advanced stat at least 5 times:

McGrady
Durant
Paul
Curry
LeBron
Garnett
Harden
Giannis
Shaq
Nowitzki
Duncan

The number of times Kobe lead the league in an advanced stat = 0

For comparison sake, Shaq lead in an advanced stat 20 times, LeBron 43 times, while Jordan lead 61 times


And Kobe's reputation as an elite defender isn't based in reality either

He had 11 seasons with a negative DBPM, and his career high of 1.6 was the only time in his career that he finished a season above 1

Jordan had just one season with a negative DBPM in his career, his first year in Washington when he finished -0.1. His career high was 4.2, and he had 9 seasons where he finished above Kobe's personal best of 1.6

LeBron's career high was 3.7, and he had 13 seasons at or better than Kobe's personal best of 1.6. And the only time LeBron finished with a negative DBPM was as a rookie


Now, let's take a look at the playoff numbers of some players during their prime, shall we?

Kobe '99 - '13 (178 games)
22.8 PER, .544 TS%, 5.8 BPM, .164 WS/48 (2 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .26)
Lead the playoffs in VORP 2x, WS 1x

Shaq '95 - '04 (155 games)
28.3 PER, .568 TS%. 6.9 BPM, .212 WS/48 (7 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .26)
Lead the playoffs in PER 4x, OWS 3x, DWS 2x, WS 3x, WS/48 2x, OBPM 1x, VORP 2x

Paul '08 - '22 (142 games)
23.6 PER, .587 TS%, 6.9 BPM, .193 WS/48 (6 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .322)
Lead the playoffs in PER 3x, OWS 1x, WS/48 3x, OBPM 2x, BPM 2x

Duncan '98 - '15 (241 games)
24.6 PER, .549 TS%, 6.0 BPM, .197 WS/48 (7 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .279)
Lead the playoffs in PER 2x, OWS 2x, DWS 1x, WS/48 1x, DBPM 2x, BPM 1x, VORP 2x

Harden '13 - '21 (94 games)
24 PER, .584 TS%, 7.7 BPM, .182 WS/48 (3 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .263)
Lead the playoffs in OBPM 1x

Wade '05 - '12 (97 games)
24.9 PER, .565 TS%, 7.4 BPM, .193 WS/48 (3 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .24)
Lead the playoffs in PER 1x, TS% 1x, DWS 1x, OBPM 1x, BPM 1x, VORP 1x

Durant '11 - '21 (145 games)
24.9 PER, .604 TS%, 7.4 BPM, .205 WS/48 (7 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .28)
Never lead the playoffs in any advanced statistic

Nowitzki '01 - '12 (128 games)
24.7 PER, .584 TS%, 6.6 BPM, .205 WS/48 (6 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .291)
Lead the playoffs in PER 1x, OWS 2x, WS 1x, WS/48 3x, OBPM 1x, BPM 1x, VORP 1x

Curry '13 - '22
23.2 PER, .608 TS%, 7.1 BPM, .195 WS/48 (3 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .272)
Lead the playoffs in WS 1x, VORP 2x

Leonard '03 - '21 (121 games)
25 PER, .621 TS%, 8.5 BPM, .232 WS/48 (5 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .314)
Lead the playoffs in PER 2x, OWS 1x, DWS 1x, WS 1x, WS/48 1x, OBPM 1x, BPM 2x, VORP 1x

LeBron '06 - '20 (260 games)
28.4 PER, .584 TS%, 10.2 BPM, .245 WS/48 (10 seasons with a WS/48 above. 2, career high of .399)
Lead the playoff in PER 5x, OWS 8x, DWS 4x, WS 9x, WS/48 4x, OBPM 5x, BPM 5x, VORP 9x

Jordan '85 - '98 (179 games)
28.6 PER, .568 TS%, 11.1 BPM, .255 WS/48 (9 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .333)
Lead the playoffs in PER 6x, OWS 7x, DWS 1x, WS 7x, WS/48 5x, OBPM 8x, DBPM 1x, BPM 9x, VORP 8x

Please note that in an attempt to provide an accurate representation of a player's playoff value during their prime, their prime was considered to have ended once there was a noticeable drop in their playoff production after the age of 30. For example, despite Kobe's 2012 regular season being more or less in line with other seasons from his prime, there was a significant drop in his playoff production from the year before, so 2011 would be viewed as the final season of his prime

So, of the 12 players listed above, Kobe has the lowest PER, TS%, BPM, and WS/48 in the playoffs during their primes


If Kobe was worthy of consideration for a Top 10 All Time list, the stats would support that, but they don't

 

[Voight]

Kobe's on-court value to his team simply wasn't at a level that would warrant consideration as a top 10 player of all time

Even at his peak he had nowhere near the positive impact on the court that his reputation would lead you to believe

Look at the career highs that some of his contemporaries were able to achieve:

Harden's career highs:
30.6 PER, 16.4 Win Shares, .289 WS/48, 11 BPM, 9.3 VORP

Durant's career highs:
29.8 PER, 19.2 Win Shares, .295 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 9.6 VORP

McGrady's career highs:
30.3 PER, 16.1 Win Shares, .262 WS/48, 10.5 BPM, 9.3 VORP

Chris Paul's career highs:
30 PER, 18.3 Win Shares, .292 WS/48, 11 BPM, 9.9 VORP

Garnett's career highs:
29.4 PER< 18.3 Win Shares, .272 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 10 VORP

Shaq's career highs:
30.6 PER, 18.6 Win Shares, .283 WS/48, 9.3 BPM, 9 VORP

Jokic's career highs:
32.8 PER, 15.6 Win Shares, .301 WS/48, 13.7 BPM, 9.8 VORP

Nowitzki's career highs:
28.1 PER, 17.7 Win Shares, .278 WS/48, 8.3 BPM, 7.9 VORP

Curry's career highs:
31.5 PER, 17.9 Win Shares, .318 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 9.5 VORP

LeBron's career highs:
31.7 PER, 20.3 Win Shares, .322 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, 11.8 VORP

Kobe's career highs:
28 PER, 15.3 Win Shares, .224 WS/48, 7.6 BPM, 8.0 VORP

Kobe only comes out ahead against one player, in one category. His 8.0 VORP beats Nowitzki's mark of 7.9, however, Kobe played 188 more minutes in his season, or the equivalent of about 4.5 games

Here's a list of Kobe's contemporaries who have lead the NBA in an advanced stat at least 5 times:

McGrady
Durant
Paul
Curry
LeBron
Garnett
Harden
Giannis
Shaq
Nowitzki
Duncan

The number of times Kobe lead the league in an advanced stat = 0

For comparison sake, Shaq lead in an advanced stat 20 times, LeBron 43 times, while Jordan lead 61 times


And Kobe's reputation as an elite defender isn't based in reality either

He had 11 seasons with a negative DBPM, and his career high of 1.6 was the only time in his career that he finished a season above 1

Jordan had just one season with a negative DBPM in his career, his first year in Washington when he finished -0.1. His career high was 4.2, and he had 9 seasons where he finished above Kobe's personal best of 1.6

LeBron's career high was 3.7, and he had 13 seasons at or better than Kobe's personal best of 1.6. And the only time LeBron finished with a negative DBPM was as a rookie


Now, let's take a look at the playoff numbers of some players during their prime, shall we?

Kobe '99 - '13 (178 games)
22.8 PER, .544 TS%, 5.8 BPM, .164 WS/48 (2 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .26)
Lead the playoffs in VORP 2x, WS 1x

Shaq '95 - '04 (155 games)
28.3 PER, .568 TS%. 6.9 BPM, .212 WS/48 (7 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .26)
Lead the playoffs in PER 4x, OWS 3x, DWS 2x, WS 3x, WS/48 2x, OBPM 1x, VORP 2x

Paul '08 - '22 (142 games)
23.6 PER, .587 TS%, 6.9 BPM, .193 WS/48 (6 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .322)
Lead the playoffs in PER 3x, OWS 1x, WS/48 3x, OBPM 2x, BPM 2x

Duncan '98 - '15 (241 games)
24.6 PER, .549 TS%, 6.0 BPM, .197 WS/48 (7 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .279)
Lead the playoffs in PER 2x, OWS 2x, DWS 1x, WS/48 1x, DBPM 2x, BPM 1x, VORP 2x

Harden '13 - '21 (94 games)
24 PER, .584 TS%, 7.7 BPM, .182 WS/48 (3 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .263)
Lead the playoffs in OBPM 1x

Wade '05 - '12 (97 games)
24.9 PER, .565 TS%, 7.4 BPM, .193 WS/48 (3 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .24)
Lead the playoffs in PER 1x, TS% 1x, DWS 1x, OBPM 1x, BPM 1x, VORP 1x

Durant '11 - '21 (145 games)
24.9 PER, .604 TS%, 7.4 BPM, .205 WS/48 (7 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .28)
Never lead the playoffs in any advanced statistic

Nowitzki '01 - '12 (128 games)
24.7 PER, .584 TS%, 6.6 BPM, .205 WS/48 (6 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .291)
Lead the playoffs in PER 1x, OWS 2x, WS 1x, WS/48 3x, OBPM 1x, BPM 1x, VORP 1x

Curry '13 - '22
23.2 PER, .608 TS%, 7.1 BPM, .195 WS/48 (3 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .272)
Lead the playoffs in WS 1x, VORP 2x

Leonard '03 - '21 (121 games)
25 PER, .621 TS%, 8.5 BPM, .232 WS/48 (5 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .314)
Lead the playoffs in PER 2x, OWS 1x, DWS 1x, WS 1x, WS/48 1x, OBPM 1x, BPM 2x, VORP 1x

LeBron '06 - '20 (260 games)
28.4 PER, .584 TS%, 10.2 BPM, .245 WS/48 (10 seasons with a WS/48 above. 2, career high of .399)
Lead the playoff in PER 5x, OWS 8x, DWS 4x, WS 9x, WS/48 4x, OBPM 5x, BPM 5x, VORP 9x

Jordan '85 - '98 (179 games)
28.6 PER, .568 TS%, 11.1 BPM, .255 WS/48 (9 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .333)
Lead the playoffs in PER 6x, OWS 7x, DWS 1x, WS 7x, WS/48 5x, OBPM 8x, DBPM 1x, BPM 9x, VORP 8x

Please note that in an attempt to provide an accurate representation of a player's playoff value during their prime, their prime was considered to have ended once there was a noticeable drop in their playoff production after the age of 30. For example, despite Kobe's 2012 regular season being more or less in line with other seasons from his prime, there was a significant drop in his playoff production from the year before, so 2011 would be viewed as the final season of his prime

So, of the 12 players listed above, Kobe has the lowest PER, TS%, BPM, and WS/48 in the playoffs during their primes


If Kobe was worthy of consideration for a Top 10 All Time list, the stats would support that, but they don't

 

[LightningStorm]

Hoping this thread doesn't go sideways and is just about Kobe. Anyways, do you have a top 10 list?

 

[Neutrinos]

Hoping this thread doesn't go sideways and is just about Kobe. Anyways, do you have a top 10 list?

You could put the matter to rest here and now by stating a convincing case for why Kobe is a top 10 player of all time

Or, admit you erred by including him on your list, and replace him with a more deserving player


What's the rationale for having Kobe and Curry in your top 10, but not Paul, when Paul is closer to Curry, than Kobe is to Paul?

Curry's career highs:
31.5 PER, 17.9 Win Shares, .318 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 9.5 VORP

Chris Paul's career highs:
30 PER, 18.3 Win Shares, .292 WS/48, 11 BPM, 9.9 VORP

Kobe's career highs:
28 PER, 15.3 Win Shares, .224 WS/48, 7.6 BPM, 8.0 VORP


Playoff primes:

Curry '13 - '22 (134 games)
23.2 PER, .608 TS%, 7.1 BPM, .195 WS/48 (3 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .272)
Lead the playoffs in WS 1x, VORP 2x

Paul '08 - '22 (142 games)
23.6 PER, .587 TS%, 6.9 BPM, .193 WS/48 (6 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .322)
Lead the playoffs in PER 3x, OWS 1x, WS/48 3x, OBPM 2x, BPM 2x

Kobe '99 - '13 (178 games)
22.8 PER, .544 TS%, 5.8 BPM, .164 WS/48 (2 playoffs with a WS/48 above .2, career high of .26)
Lead the playoffs in VORP 2x, WS 1x

 

[Jack Straw]

Not in any particular order:

Wilt
Kareem
Jordan
Oscar Robertson
LeBron
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Magic
Bird

HM: Bill Russell, Steph Curry

 

[Voight]

Hoping this thread doesn't go sideways and is just about Kobe. Anyways, do you have a top 10 list?

In no particular order

Wilt/Kareem/Jordan/Olajuwon/LeBron/Kobe/Shaq/Duncan/Magic/Bird

HM - Robertson, KD, Jerry West, Dirk

 

[Neutrinos]

Putting Kobe in your top 10 list is akin to insisting that a nickel is worth more than a dime

 

[DaaaaB's]

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Robertson
10. Duncan

HM: Hakeem, West, Curry

 

[Neutrinos]

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Robertson
10. Duncan

HM: Hakeem, West, Curry

Hakeem is better than Russell

Don't make me pull up the stats!

 

[LightningStorm]

1. Lebron
2. Jordan
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Robertson
10. Duncan

HM: Hakeem, West, Curry

Pretty respectable list. Oscar is an underrated guard, and I have no problem when I see him placed in the top 10.

Hakeem is better than Russell

Don't make me pull up the stats!

I actually agree with Hakeem being better than Russell. The Dream was an underrated big. To me he is in the same tier as Shaq, though I do rank Shaq higher. But I'd take Hakeem over Ewing, Robinson and Duncan without much contemplation.

As for Russell, the notion that he was better than Chamberlain was a joke. I don't even think that comparison was particularly close.

 

[hockey20000]

1:Michael Jordan
-Big gap-
2: Wilt Chamberlain
3:Lebron James
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Kobe Bryant
7:Shaq
8. Larry Bird
9. Steph Curry
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

 

[LightningStorm]

For my OP, I think my top 4 (Lebron, Michael, Wilt, Kareem) are the players one could make a reasonable case for when it comes to being the GOAT.

 

[Neutrinos]

Pretty respectable list. Oscar is an underrated guard, and I have no problem when I see him placed in the top 10.

I actually agree with Hakeem being better than Russell. The Dream was an underrated big. To me he is in the same tier as Shaq, though I do rank Shaq higher. But I'd take Hakeem over Ewing, Robinson and Duncan without much contemplation.

As for Russell, the notion that he was better than Chamberlain was a joke. I don't even think that comparison was particularly close.

1:Michael Jordan
-Big gap-
2: Wilt Chamberlain
3:Lebron James
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Kobe Bryant
7:Shaq
8. Larry Bird
9. Steph Curry
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

I also would've thought Hakeem was ahead of Duncan, but after looking at his stats, I was surprised to see The Dream's peak wasn't as impressive as I would have thought

His on-court value during certain playoffs, however, was certainly noteworthy

 

[Terry Yake]

MJ
Bron
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Shaq
Bird
Kobe
Duncan
Curry

 

[Neutrinos]

Well, if we're just making a list of players that we wish were top 10 all time regardless of merit, here's mine:

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Bronny James
Jim Halpert
Isiah Thomas
Isaiah Thomas
Jim Thorpe
The Morris Twins
Sidney Deane

Honourable mention: Len Bias, Keon Clark, Teen Wolf

 

[mrmovies779]

Between Russell's time at the University of San Francisco, the Olympics and with the Celtics, he played in 21 different winner-take-all games: single-elimination games in either the NCAA tournament or the Olympics, or a series-deciding Game 5 or 7 during the NBA playoffs. Russell's record in those games? A cool 21-0.

WiltJordan,Russell,Shaq,LeBron,Duncan,Robertson,Kareem,Hakeem,Bird is my list

 

[Neutrinos]

Between Russell's time at the University of San Francisco, the Olympics and with the Celtics, he played in 21 different winner-take-all games: single-elimination games in either the NCAA tournament or the Olympics, or a series-deciding Game 5 or 7 during the NBA playoffs. Russell's record in those games? A cool 21-0.

WiltJordan,Russell,Shaq,LeBron,Duncan,Robertson,Kareem,Hakeem,Bird is my list

So, regardless of how he performed in those 21 games, your justification for having him in the top 10 is because his teams won?

 

[LightningStorm]

So, regardless of how he performed in those 21 games, your justification for having him in the top 10 is because his teams won?

That's why I don't have Russell in my top 10, despite many having him top 5. Too much of his legacy is about him as a "winner." Basically point #1 I said in my OP. Worth pointing out that he had 7 HOF players, which is disproportionately high for a 13 year career.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Been watchin since 69.

Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Wilt, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe​

 

[mrmovies779]

So, regardless of how he performed in those 21 games, your justification for having him in the top 10 is because his teams won?

If you don't think he was a huge reason his teams won those 21 games,I'm not sure what else to tell you.

 

[Neutrinos]

If you don't think he was a huge reason his teams won those 21 games,I'm not sure what else to tell you.

How about starting with how he performed in those 21 games?

 

[mrmovies779]

How about starting with how he performed in those 21 games?

Bill Russell Elimination Game Stats | StatMuse

Bill Russell averaged 26.6 rebounds and 14.9 points in 19 games in elimination games in his career.

www.statmuse.com

Crazy

Bill Russell

4/18/1962

BOS

vs

LAL

53

30

40

4

8

18

44.4

30 points and 40 rebounds lol

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Jordan averaged 31.3 points, 7.9 rebounds and 7.0 assists in 13 games in elimination games in his career.

 

[frisco]

1) LeBron
2) Jabbar
3) Jordan
4) Chamberlain
5) Russell
6) Kobe
7) Magic
8) Duncan
9) Shaq
10) Hakeem

My Best-Carey