Your personal historical hockey convictions/headcanons??

Kinnikuniverse

Registered User
Sep 11, 2021
61
16
What are your personal historical hockey convictions/headcanons? I'll start with mine:

-Jimmy Carson would've had a way better career had the kings failed to have acquired Gretzky. The Kings would've also have been just as good in the early 90s without Gretzky and a better Carson.

-The Nordiques would've won the Stanley cup had pittsburgh finished off the Isles in 1982.
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
4,981
2,363
That Pavel Bure's stylistic reputation would have been different if he was a career Soviet, and that people would play up his physical strength and occasional nastiness more.

It makes for a good story to talk about the continuity between the great Soviet forward lines, and talk about the intelligent, well-rounded centres Petrov and Larionov (Fyodorov continues their legacy well); the artistry of wings Kharlamov and Makarov (Mogilny's puck skills are up there), and the explosive, hard straight lines skated by Mikhailov and Krutov...

Now, Bure isn't necessarily all that similar to Mikhailov or Krutov, but all 9 of those players are unique animals in their own right, and the 5'9" Krutov in particular conjures a somewhat inaccurate mental picture of a Canadian-style power forward. So I don't think anyone would think, "Bure, he's their Cam Neely" or something ridiculous like that. But I think descriptions of how he fit with his linemates would focus on his more bombastic qualities.
 

MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,701
84,614
Vancouver, BC
A few of mine :

1) Mike Liut was the greatest goalie of the 1980s (or at least until the emergence of Patrick Roy) and should be a slam-dunk HHOFer, but perception of his career is destroyed by the fact that he played mostly for terrible teams and the way he was unfairly scapegoated for the 1981 Canada Cup. It was a lot easier for Canadians to tell themselves that we lost because our goalie stunk than because we were systematically dismantled by a superior USSR team in the final.

2) 2008-2013 Alex Burrows was the best defensive winger alive and on the same level - both offensively and defensively - as late '90s/early '00s Jere Lehtinen. He should have been an annual Selke finalist but was nowhere near due to a) the center monopoly on the Selke after the popularization of faceoff stats (Lehtinen was the last winger to seriously contend until Mark Stone) b) vote splitting with Ryan Kesler, who to me was the lesser defensive player of the two, and c) the fact that the voters really didn't like him and how he played.

3) Rob Blake is probably the most overrated player in the history of hockey. He was an offensive defender whose impact was probably similar to Sergei Gonchar but because he was 6'4, Canadian, and threw giant ass-checks he was projected by fans and media as being a Pronger-esque all-around stud. Benefitted massively from spending his entire career in non-hockey markets in western time zones where the criticism of his defensive play that would have come in Toronto or New York didn't exist. Took easy minutes for most of his prime while Norstrom/Foote were buried in the hard matchups. Substantially inferior player/career to Teppo Numminen.
 

Brodeur

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
26,115
15,752
San Diego
Off the top of my head, one of my delusional thoughts is whether winning the 2011 Draft Lottery prevented the Devils from winning the 2012 Stanley Cup.

New Jersey moved up from #8 to #4 in 2011 as a result of the lottery win and drafted Adam Larsson. At the time, he seemed like a perfect fit as we desperately needed a RD in the short and long term. The team wasn't sure if he'd be ready for the NHL at 18, so we had Anton Stralman in camp as a PTO. Eventually they proceeded with Larsson and Stralman wasn't signed (he'd eventually go to the Rangers).

In the second half of the season, Larsson hit the wall / got injured and ended up being a scratch for most of the playoff run. He'd have a short cameo in the ECF but saw no games against the Kings in the Finals. Instead journeyman Peter Harrold took a regular shift in his place.

So I always wonder how it might have played out differently had the Devils stayed put at #8 (and probably end up with Dougie Hamilton) and had Stralman instead of Larsson/Harrold on the 2012 team.
 

McGarnagle

Yes.
Aug 5, 2017
29,007
38,870
The one hill I always die on is that Iginla rejecting the agreed-upon trade to Boston and going to Pittsburgh cost them the 2013 cup and expedited the blowing up of that core and Chiarelli's firing.

Bruins made it to game 6 of the cup final losing 3 1-goal games without Iggy, despite the fact that Jaromir Jagr (who Chiarelli scrambled to acquire after Iggy invoked his NTC) gave the Bruins nearly nothing - no goals in 22 postseason games, the most snakebit player I've ever seen - a few big assists though, but no doubt Iggy would've given more, and Nathan Horton was playing on a separated shoulder - a shoulder he separated in a late-season game against Pittsburgh during a fight with - wait for it - Jarome Iginla.

Then the following summer they did sign Iginla as a UFA - but leveraged everything into it, giving him league minimum base and incentives. He scored 30 goals so those incentives were hit and they went way over the cap and were penalized on the 2014-15 cap, so they couldn't bring him back and had to trade away Boychuk as well to be cap compliant, and the team fell apart from there.

My headcanon? If Iginla takes the Boston trade at the 2013 deadline for Bartkowski, Khokhlachev, and a 1st, Boston wins the cup in 6 games. Everyone is happy with the result and Seguin isn't scapegoated so they don't make the Loui Eriksson trade (Horton still walks after they keep Seguin, obviously). Iginla finds himself comfortable in Boston and wants to extend on a multiyear deal, they move some other pieces (Peverly, Kelly, McQuaid) to make it all fit under the cap. By butterfly effect, Dennis Seidenberg doesn't tear his ACL in 2013-14, he's still effective and there for the playoffs, Bruins win the 2014 cup as well.
 

Brodeur

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
26,115
15,752
San Diego

Another random 'what if' thought that I had within the last couple of years was the 1999 Draft. Vancouver lost the final game of the regular season against Calgary when Cory Stillman scored with four seconds left in regulation. If Vancouver had gotten at least a point of the game, they would have swapped draft spots with the Islanders heading into the lottery. Assuming the same result (Chicago won to move up from #8 to #4), the order would have been:

1. Tampa Bay
2. Atlanta
3. NY Islanders
4. Chicago
5. Vancouver

Would Brian Burke have been powerless to get both Sedins? Or would he have been able to talk Mike Milbury into swapping down a couple spots? Or would Milbury have had the idea to get both twins? The Islanders also would end up with picks #8 (Palffy trade) and #10 (Linden trade). Maybe they could have convinced Chicago to trade out? In Burke's autobiography, he was trying to play coy about his interest in the Sedins and Chicago contacted him about trading out of #3 since they wanted both. But Burke refused and since he had the leverage of having the higher pick, he talked Chicago into trading #4.

TL;DR: If Stillman doesn't score, maybe the Sedins are separated or end up on the Islanders/Blackhawks together.
 

Kinnikuniverse

Registered User
Sep 11, 2021
61
16

Another random 'what if' thought that I had within the last couple of years was the 1999 Draft. Vancouver lost the final game of the regular season against Calgary when Cory Stillman scored with four seconds left in regulation. If Vancouver had gotten at least a point of the game, they would have swapped draft spots with the Islanders heading into the lottery. Assuming the same result (Chicago won to move up from #8 to #4), the order would have been:

1. Tampa Bay
2. Atlanta
3. NY Islanders
4. Chicago
5. Vancouver

Would Brian Burke have been powerless to get both Sedins? Or would he have been able to talk Mike Milbury into swapping down a couple spots? Or would Milbury have had the idea to get both twins? The Islanders also would end up with picks #8 (Palffy trade) and #10 (Linden trade). Maybe they could have convinced Chicago to trade out? In Burke's autobiography, he was trying to play coy about his interest in the Sedins and Chicago contacted him about trading out of #3 since they wanted both. But Burke refused and since he had the leverage of having the higher pick, he talked Chicago into trading #4.

TL;DR: If Stillman doesn't score, maybe the Sedins are separated or end up on the Islanders/Blackhawks together.
...but that isn't a conviction/headcannon, though...that's speculation
 

David Bruce Banner

Nude Cabdriver Ban
Mar 25, 2008
7,967
3,245
Streets Ahead
I discount a lot of the records, at least to some extent, of teams and players from '67 to '80... due to, what I believe to be the lowest LQ since WWII.

At the same time, I give Phil Esposito's play in the '72 series vs. the Soviets kudos for being some the best play over a series of games I have ever seen in 50 years of watching hockey.
 

Staniowski

Registered User
Jan 13, 2018
3,522
3,092
The Maritimes
That Pavel Bure's stylistic reputation would have been different if he was a career Soviet, and that people would play up his physical strength and occasional nastiness more.

It makes for a good story to talk about the continuity between the great Soviet forward lines, and talk about the intelligent, well-rounded centres Petrov and Larionov (Fyodorov continues their legacy well); the artistry of wings Kharlamov and Makarov (Mogilny's puck skills are up there), and the explosive, hard straight lines skated by Mikhailov and Krutov...

Now, Bure isn't necessarily all that similar to Mikhailov or Krutov, but all 9 of those players are unique animals in their own right, and the 5'9" Krutov in particular conjures a somewhat inaccurate mental picture of a Canadian-style power forward. So I don't think anyone would think, "Bure, he's their Cam Neely" or something ridiculous like that. But I think descriptions of how he fit with his linemates would focus on his more bombastic qualities.
I doubt Bure - Fedorov - Mogilny would've remained a line. They were only a line during Bure's 17-year-old season, and a couple pre-tournament games of the '96 World Cup (I think that was it). I don't think they worked well enough as a line.

Fedorov and Mogilny were good together, and Slava Kozlov would've fit well together with them, I think. And Bure could create another strong line, with Zhamnov probably.

Bure - Fedorov - Mogilny is the only one of those three great lines that played together when they were young.
 

Brodeur

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
26,115
15,752
San Diego
...but that isn't a conviction/headcannon, though...that's speculation

I guess I'm unfamiliar the distinction between headcanon and speculation then.



Not sure if this is the correct usage, but one random thing I've convinced myself of is that the Flyers win the Stanley Cup if this Eric Lindros goal had beat the buzzer in Game 6 of the 2000 ECF. Flyers would have entered the third period with a 1-0 lead and Lindros would have been hailed as the hero as that was his debut.

Philadelphia would have had home ice against Dallas. The NHL schedule makers did the Western Conference a little dirty that year. Dallas advanced in Game 7 on May 27th and had to play Game 1 on May 30th. So they only got a couple days off plus a travel day. Later a few Dallas players admitted that they didn't have legs for Game 1 since they emptied the tank against the Avs. Ed Belfour got sick and had a Nyquil assisted Game 1 meltdown. Jamie Langenbrunner got hurt in WCF and Dallas was a one line team in the SCF (but were still a tough out).
 

CharlestownChiefsESC

Registered User
Sep 17, 2008
1,227
427
Laurence Harbor NJ
May 9 1992- maybe the most pivotal day in New York Rangers history.

On that day the Rangers met the Penguins in Game 4 of the Patrick Division Finals coming in with a 2-1 series lead. The Rangers came into the 3rd period of that game with a 3-2 lead and early on Mark Messier scored to make it 4-2. ( We all know what happened after that the Pens scored twice including 1 from the red line by Ron Francis and won in ot and the rest we say is history). But what if the time after the Messier goal didn't happen and the score remained 4-2 Rangers. They obviously go up 3-1 and without any real thinking or testing I guess on my part the assumption is they win Game 5 and take the series 4-1. After that many can argue what happened but me bored out of my mind put the playoff rosters of the 92 Rangers and 92 Bruins on what if sports. The result a 4 game sweep with of all people Sergei Nemchinov scoring the series clincher in triple ot in game 4. Then I took the Blackahwaks playoff roster and did the same thing. The result is a longer series and not the irl sweep of the Hawks by the Pens. The Rangers even experience a scare after winning game 1 in dominant fashion and go down 2-1 but string together 3 in a row and end the curse at 52 years off a Messier hat trick in Game 6.

This would change so much I doubt the push for Lindros at the draft is ever made, I still think they acquire Kevin Lowe in 93 along with Esa Tikkanen but Doug Weight isn't the piece heading back. While they sill take a step back that year it isn't the drastic one like IRL. I think they do make the playoffs in 93 but dont go far, probably 1 round and out. I do think the tensions between Messier and Neilson are still very real though but in this timeline Neil Smith doesn't acquise to Messier's every demand. As a result of this Neilson leaves in his own accord at the end of 93 to take the Panthers job and is reviled amongst Ranger fans. Who steps in to coach? I don't know but I highly doubt Keenan. Most likely the job is given to Colin Campbell, but where does Keenan go then on these boards its been said that Keenan was Detroit's plan A and Bowman plan B. If the Wings hire Keenan where does Bowman go St.Louis??? Maybe.

After all of this 94 starts the team no longer has a cup hangover. They dominate the league like irl, they still trade for Larmer like irl, but at the trade deadline are a little more reserved. Amonte and Gartner are never moved and stay in NY (no Matteau Matteau MatteaU). The only move made is MacTavish is brought in for depth. Using rosters on what if sports again I simmed lol. The Rangers beat the Islanders in round 1 in 5,sweep the Caps in round 2 in 4. In the ECF against the Devils they finally hit a road block after winning game 1, they lose the next 3 to go down 3-1 2 of the losses coming in ot. In Game 5 on home ice they go up 3-1 only to blow the lead and go to ot, in ot Adam Graves is the hero scoring in sudden death ot to keep it alive. They then win a tight Game 6 to bring it back to MSG for Game 7. In this game they go up 2-0 but again blow the lead but a goal by Alexei Kovalev with a little over 7 mins remaining puts them ahead and they win Game 7 on home ice to go back to the finals for the 2nd time in 3 years. The finals vs Vanvouver are a cake walk through the first 3 games. Game 4 is a back and forth affair with Vancouver dominating the play and after a Pavel Bure goal midway through the 3rd all signs pointed t it heading back to NY. Until the Rangers had other plans Craig MacTavish scored right after and then with just over 3 minutes left Segei Nemchinov is the hero again scoring the go ahead goal to give the Rangers a sweep, the 94 cup and thier 2nd in 3 years.

After this there's too many other factors to figure what happens with them and elsewhere. But yeah id take this headcannon over real life. The only bad part is the cups arent won at home. But I think this prevents the problems the organization has down the line yes.
 
Last edited:

Voight

#winning
Feb 8, 2012
40,705
17,089
Mulberry Street
The one hill I always die on is that Iginla rejecting the agreed-upon trade to Boston and going to Pittsburgh cost them the 2013 cup and expedited the blowing up of that core and Chiarelli's firing.

Bruins made it to game 6 of the cup final losing 3 1-goal games without Iggy, despite the fact that Jaromir Jagr (who Chiarelli scrambled to acquire after Iggy invoked his NTC) gave the Bruins nearly nothing - no goals in 22 postseason games, the most snakebit player I've ever seen - a few big assists though, but no doubt Iggy would've given more, and Nathan Horton was playing on a separated shoulder - a shoulder he separated in a late-season game against Pittsburgh during a fight with - wait for it - Jarome Iginla.

Then the following summer they did sign Iginla as a UFA - but leveraged everything into it, giving him league minimum base and incentives. He scored 30 goals so those incentives were hit and they went way over the cap and were penalized on the 2014-15 cap, so they couldn't bring him back and had to trade away Boychuk as well to be cap compliant, and the team fell apart from there.

My headcanon? If Iginla takes the Boston trade at the 2013 deadline for Bartkowski, Khokhlachev, and a 1st, Boston wins the cup in 6 games. Everyone is happy with the result and Seguin isn't scapegoated so they don't make the Loui Eriksson trade (Horton still walks after they keep Seguin, obviously). Iginla finds himself comfortable in Boston and wants to extend on a multiyear deal, they move some other pieces (Peverly, Kelly, McQuaid) to make it all fit under the cap. By butterfly effect, Dennis Seidenberg doesn't tear his ACL in 2013-14, he's still effective and there for the playoffs, Bruins win the 2014 cup as well.

Admittedly I am biased as a Hawks fan but our 2013 team was insane. Don't think we lose even if Iggy is a Bruin.

OP - Carey Price is insanely overrated and really only had a handful of elite seasons. Had he accomplished the same in a less popular/smaller market like Arizona or Florida, people on this site would not be talking about him the same way.
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,611
3,610
Grant Fuhr would be remembered far differently if he hadn't been lucky enough to spend the first half of his career on an all-star team of players in their prime

He has no business being in the Hall of Fame

From age 20 - 37, his GSAA was minus -69.8!
 
Last edited:

quietbruinfan

Salt and light
Feb 2, 2022
6,455
5,372
Land of Nod in the East of Eden
The one hill I always die on is that Iginla rejecting the agreed-upon trade to Boston and going to Pittsburgh cost them the 2013 cup and expedited the blowing up of that core and Chiarelli's firing.

Bruins made it to game 6 of the cup final losing 3 1-goal games without Iggy, despite the fact that Jaromir Jagr (who Chiarelli scrambled to acquire after Iggy invoked his NTC) gave the Bruins nearly nothing - no goals in 22 postseason games, the most snakebit player I've ever seen - a few big assists though, but no doubt Iggy would've given more, and Nathan Horton was playing on a separated shoulder - a shoulder he separated in a late-season game against Pittsburgh during a fight with - wait for it - Jarome Iginla.

Then the following summer they did sign Iginla as a UFA - but leveraged everything into it, giving him league minimum base and incentives. He scored 30 goals so those incentives were hit and they went way over the cap and were penalized on the 2014-15 cap, so they couldn't bring him back and had to trade away Boychuk as well to be cap compliant, and the team fell apart from there.

My headcanon? If Iginla takes the Boston trade at the 2013 deadline for Bartkowski, Khokhlachev, and a 1st, Boston wins the cup in 6 games. Everyone is happy with the result and Seguin isn't scapegoated so they don't make the Loui Eriksson trade (Horton still walks after they keep Seguin, obviously). Iginla finds himself comfortable in Boston and wants to extend on a multiyear deal, they move some other pieces (Peverly, Kelly, McQuaid) to make it all fit under the cap. By butterfly effect, Dennis Seidenberg doesn't tear his ACL in 2013-14, he's still effective and there for the playoffs, Bruins win the 2014 cup as well.
Totally disagree. Iggy was close to washed even at that point. He would get his 20-30 dirty goals but hurt his team's d and creativity.
 

Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
31,703
4,146
Claude Lemieux scores on that two-on-one with 4 minutes left in Game 3 of the 1996 World Cup and Canada goes up 3-1. They for sure win the game and the tournament. There is no hand wringing, Canada had played a great game and Richter kept the States in there for a while, but eventually it would be too much. The USA gets a lot of respect, and I'll be honest I am not sure how things change for 1998, but the bottom line is Canada goes into 1998 as champions and maybe builds their team with a little bit less of a panic to ONLY beat the US. The 1996 World Cup team is one of those teams we look at and realize just how much talent they were missing and yet still wins. No one is asking about Canadian skill.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MarkusNaslund19

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
13,719
18,591
Las Vegas
The one hill I always die on is that Iginla rejecting the agreed-upon trade to Boston and going to Pittsburgh cost them the 2013 cup and expedited the blowing up of that core and Chiarelli's firing.

Bruins made it to game 6 of the cup final losing 3 1-goal games without Iggy, despite the fact that Jaromir Jagr (who Chiarelli scrambled to acquire after Iggy invoked his NTC) gave the Bruins nearly nothing - no goals in 22 postseason games, the most snakebit player I've ever seen - a few big assists though, but no doubt Iggy would've given more, and Nathan Horton was playing on a separated shoulder - a shoulder he separated in a late-season game against Pittsburgh during a fight with - wait for it - Jarome Iginla.

Then the following summer they did sign Iginla as a UFA - but leveraged everything into it, giving him league minimum base and incentives. He scored 30 goals so those incentives were hit and they went way over the cap and were penalized on the 2014-15 cap, so they couldn't bring him back and had to trade away Boychuk as well to be cap compliant, and the team fell apart from there.

My headcanon? If Iginla takes the Boston trade at the 2013 deadline for Bartkowski, Khokhlachev, and a 1st, Boston wins the cup in 6 games. Everyone is happy with the result and Seguin isn't scapegoated so they don't make the Loui Eriksson trade (Horton still walks after they keep Seguin, obviously). Iginla finds himself comfortable in Boston and wants to extend on a multiyear deal, they move some other pieces (Peverly, Kelly, McQuaid) to make it all fit under the cap. By butterfly effect, Dennis Seidenberg doesn't tear his ACL in 2013-14, he's still effective and there for the playoffs, Bruins win the 2014 cup as well.

1000% true.

The Bruins easily win the Cup with Iginla and a healthy Horton.

as it is 5 of the 6 games were a 1 goal game, 1 went to 3OT and 2 others went to OT. Replacing Daugavins with Iginla is more than enough to tip those scales
 

McGarnagle

Yes.
Aug 5, 2017
29,007
38,870
1000% true.

The Bruins easily win the Cup with Iginla and a healthy Horton.

as it is 5 of the 6 games were a 1 goal game, 1 went to 3OT and 2 others went to OT. Replacing Daugavins with Iginla is more than enough to tip those scales
It's replacing Jagr, really. But still, yeah. Just one goal in any of those games is the difference.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rfournier103

LightningStorm

Lightning/Mets/Vikings
Dec 19, 2008
3,094
2,097
Pacific NW, USA
One hill I've always died on here is that while the Nords/Avs won the Lindros trade by getting Forsberg and depth in return, it's overall impact is overrated and sensationalized. Mainly, the premise that it was necessary to win the 1996 and 2001 cups and that without it they couldn't have traded for Roy, Bourque and Blake. In general, I think people tend to look at every piece of a trade as being an end all be all, no matter how minor. Let's take a look at each of these 3 subsequent trades:

Roy: Whoever traded for Roy was getting a goalie back in the return, since the Habs trade partner obviously could rid themselves of one with Roy being their new starter. Serge Savard almost traded Roy to Colorado in the 1995 offseason before getting fired, and the goalie he was gonna get back was Fiset instead of Thibault. I think saying they can't trade for Roy without the Lindros trade is also based on the false premise that the Habs got fair value in return for Roy.

Bourque: Saying the Lindros trade directly led to this one is a giant stretch when it's 4 trades down the line. Also, this trade was more part of the Sundin trade tree than the Lindros one, as Sundin was obviously a far bigger piece than Baumgartner in the package sent to the Leafs for Wendel Clark.

Blake: Deadmarsh was an important player on the 1996 team, but his involvement in this trade tree is more incidental than direct. He wasn't acquired with any pick from the deal, but a pick used by the Nords following a pick swap with the Isles in a trade that involved Hextall, who was part of the original trade. Plus when he was subsequently traded for Blake, the main thing LA got in return was 2 first round picks.

With that out of the way, now let's turn to Forsberg. His best postseasons came in years the Avs didn't win the cup (1999, 2000, and 2002) while Sakic and Roy were the best in 1996 and 2001. Here's my scenario if Lindros accepts being drafted by the Nords and is still with them when they move to Denver, with a minor twist thrown in:

1996: Avs still win the cup. Lindros was better than Forsberg at the time, so I think they are even more dominant with what would've been an even better top 2 center duo in 1996 than the one they already had. They still trade for Roy too, as mentioned above. I don't see anything changing without the Lindros trade here in 1996.

Now for the twist: in this scenario, I think they are more likely to win a 2nd cup by repeating in 1997 than winning it in 2001. In 1997, Lindros had his best postseason on his way to the finals. Meanwhile, Forsberg had a hot start to the postseason, but a concussion limited him in the WCF. With Lindros with the Avs this season too, they likely beat the Wings again with him being an obvious upgrade over an injured Forsberg. This gets into a different head canon of mine, which is Detroit possibly disbanding their core if they don't win it in 1997, since their RS regressed from previous years.

With Lindros having concussion issues after that, this is why I think 2001 is a question mark. Forsberg was still healthy in the RS, and played a key role in staving off a Kings upset in R2 before missing the final 2 rounds. They'd still acquire Bourque and Blake leading up to this season, so they'd have a better defense. But if Lindros misses the entire season, it would be unlikely they'd win it this season. If he did play though, he did show the following season (his first with the Rangers) that he was still a good enough center to be a #2 behind Sakic.

For a summary, the Avs still trade for Roy, Bourque and Blake in this scenario, and still win 2 Stanley Cups, with their 2nd one more likely coming in 1997 instead of 2001. The one thing all of this is still contingent on is them moving from QC to Denver.
 
Last edited:

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,128
12,800
Yzerman didn't suddenly become a good defensive player in the 90s, his usage just changed and people generally don't really know how to assess defensive play... probably myself included, despite the content of this post. I am also convinced that Lidstrom was better offensively than defensively. Zetterberg was better defensively than Datsyuk and Datsyuk's game translated poorly to the playoffs when teams had time to prepare for him.

Without getting into a longwinded explanation, there are times when a player is notably better than another, even a teammate, but their results are pretty much the same or even for seasons at a time the inferior player can attain better typical results. I have had the discussion with different people and refer to the player as MacKinnons and Drouins, based on their time in the QMJHL. The better player would do better in a better league as he is the more talented player, but for various reasons it may not show in the league they are playing in, even if it is the NHL. Hull and Mikita would be probably the biggest MacKinnon and Drouin.
 

Kinnikuniverse

Registered User
Sep 11, 2021
61
16
May 9 1992- maybe the most pivotal day in New York Rangers history.

On that day the Rangers met the Penguins in Game 4 of the Patrick Division Finals coming in with a 2-1 series lead. The Rangers came into the 3rd period of that game with a 3-2 lead and early on Mark Messier scored to make it 4-2. ( We all know what happened after that the Pens scored twice including 1 from the red line by Ron Francis and won in ot and the rest we say is history). But what if the time after the Messier goal didn't happen and the score remained 4-2 Rangers. They obviously go up 3-1 and without any real thinking or testing I guess on my part the assumption is they win Game 5 and take the series 4-1. After that many can argue what happened but me bored out of my mind put the playoff rosters of the 92 Rangers and 92 Bruins on what if sports. The result a 4 game sweep with of all people Sergei Nemchinov scoring the series clincher in triple ot in game 4. Then I took the Blackahwaks playoff roster and did the same thing. The result is a longer series and not the irl sweep of the Hawks by the Pens. The Rangers even experience a scare after winning game 1 in dominant fashion and go down 2-1 but string together 3 in a row and end the curse at 52 years off a Messier hat trick in Game 6.

This would change so much I doubt the push for Lindros at the draft is ever made, I still think they acquire Kevin Lowe in 93 along with Esa Tikkanen but Doug Weight isn't the piece heading back. While they sill take a step back that year it isn't the drastic one like IRL. I think they do make the playoffs in 93 but dont go far, probably 1 round and out. I do think the tensions between Messier and Neilson are still very real though but in this timeline Neil Smith doesn't acquise to Messier's every demand. As a result of this Neilson leaves in his own accord at the end of 93 to take the Panthers job and is reviled amongst Ranger fans. Who steps in to coach? I don't know but I highly doubt Keenan. Most likely the job is given to Colin Campbell, but where does Keenan go then on these boards its been said that Keenan was Detroit's plan A and Bowman plan B. If the Wings hire Keenan where does Bowman go St.Louis??? Maybe.

After all of this 94 starts the team no longer has a cup hangover. They dominate the league like irl, they still trade for Larmer like irl, but at the trade deadline are a little more reserved. Amonte and Gartner are never moved and stay in NY (no Matteau Matteau MatteaU). The only move made is MacTavish is brought in for depth. Using rostwrs on what if sports again I simmed lol. The Rangers beat the Islanders in round 1 in 5,sweep the Caps in round 2 in 4. In the ECF against the Devils they finally hit a road block after winning game 1, they lose the next 3 to go down 3-1 2 of the losses coming in ot. In Game 5 on home ice they go up 31 only to blow the lead and go to ot, in ot Adam Graves is the hero scoring in sudden death ot to keep it alive.= They then win a tight Game 6 to bring it back to MSG for Game 7. In this game they go up 2-0 but again blow the lead but a goal by Alexei Kovalev with a little over 7 mins remaining puts them ahead and the win Game 7 on home ice to go back to the finals for the 2nd time in 3 years. The finals vs Vanvouver are a cake walk through the first 3 games. Game 4 is a back and forth affair with Vancouver dominating the play and after a Pavel Bure goal midway through the 3rd all signs pointed t it heading back to NY. Until the Rangers had other plans Craig MacTavish scored right after and then with just over 3 minutes left Segei Nemchinov is the hero again scoring the go ahead goal to give the Rangers a sweep, the 94 cup and thier 2nd in 3 years.

After this there's too many other factors to figure what happens with them and elsewhere. But yeah id take this headcannon over real life. The only bad part is the cups arent won at home. But I think this prevents the problems the organization has down the line yes.
Jesus christ, that 3-1 comeback beats out the guarantee out of the water. Hell, i'd like to imagine Messier still does his guarantee!

For tikkanen still coming in, i'd like to imagine that its darren turcotte going the other way, but that Larmer might not come to New York, since if turcotte goes to edmonton for tikkanen instead of chicago for larmer, then the trade is void... not like the rags needed him, since on the right wing, they'd already have Gartner, Eddie Olczyk and Amonte, so no need for larmer, really. Kovalev could just play on the left wing on Weight and Amonte's line.




But yeah, the rags would've been a powerhouse in the east in the 90s, easily competing with philly, the devils and pittsburgh. Not only that, in the late 90s-early 00s, you could have a core of:

Graves-Weight-Amonte
Nedved-Savard-Kovalev
Knuble-Marchant-Sundstrom



Leetch
Zubov
Norstrom
Kim jonsson
McCabe (IRL, Leafs acquired him for Karpovtsev because the latter wanted to be paid as the highest paid defenseman on the team. If the rags still have Karpovtsev, they could trade him for McCabe instead?)

Jean-Sebastien Giguere


Damn, they really dropped the ball for that one cup whe it could have been more...
 

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,128
12,800
Also Yzerman was a better player than Sakic was, Sakic just ended up being healthier over the course of their careers.
 

Kinnikuniverse

Registered User
Sep 11, 2021
61
16
One hill I've always died on here is that while the Nords/Avs won the Lindros trade by getting Forsberg and depth in return, it's overall impact is overrated and sensationalized. Mainly, the premise that it was necessary to win the 1996 and 2001 cups and that without it they couldn't have traded for Roy, Bourque and Blake. In general, I think people tend to look at every piece of a trade as being an end all be all, no matter how minor. Let's take a look at each of these 3 subsequent trades:

Roy: Whoever traded for Roy was getting a goalie back in the return, since the Habs trade partner obviously could rid themselves of one with Roy being their new starter. Serge Savard almost traded Roy to Colorado in the 1995 offseason before getting fired, and the goalie he was gonna get back was Fiset instead of Thibault. I think saying they can't trade for Roy without the Lindros trade is also based on the false premise that the Habs got fair value in return for Roy.

Bourque: Saying the Lindros trade directly led to this one is a giant stretch when it's 4 trades down the line. Also, this trade was more part of the Sundin trade tree than the Lindros one, as Sundin was obviously a far bigger piece than Baumgartner in the package sent to the Leafs for Wendel Clark.

Blake: Deadmarsh was an important player on the 1996 team, but his involvement in this trade tree is more incidental than direct. He wasn't acquired with any pick from the deal, but a pick used by the Nords following a pick swap with the Isles in a trade that involved Hextall, who was part of the original trade. Plus when he was subsequently traded for Blake, the main thing LA got in return was 2 first round picks.

With that out of the way, now let's turn to Forsberg. His best postseasons came in years the Avs didn't win the cup (1999, 2000, and 2002) while Sakic and Roy were the best in 1996 and 2001. Here's my scenario if Lindros accepts being drafted by the Habs and is still with them when they move to Denver, with a minor twist thrown in:

1996: Avs still win the cup. Lindros was better than Forsberg at the time, so I think they are even more dominant with what would've been an even better top 2 center duo in 1996 than the one they already had. They still trade for Roy too, as mentioned above. I don't see anything changing without the Lindros trade here in 1996.

Now for the twist: in this scenario, I think they are more likely to win a 2nd cup by repeating in 1997 than winning it in 2001. In 1997, Lindros had his best postseason on his way to the finals. Meanwhile, Forsberg had a hot start to the postseason, but a concussion limited him in the WCF. With Lindros with the Avs this season too, they likely beat the Wings again with him being an obvious upgrade over an injured Forsberg. This gets into a different head canon of mine, which is Detroit possibly disbanding their core if they don't win it in 1997, since their RS regressed from previous years.

With Lindros having concussion issues after that, this is why I think 2001 is a question mark. Forsberg was still healthy in the RS, and played a key role in staving off a Kings upset in R2 before missing the final 2 rounds. They'd still acquire Bourque and Blake leading up to this season, so they'd have a better defense. But if Lindros misses the entire season, it would be unlikely they'd win it this season. If he did play though, he did show the following season (his first with the Rangers) that he was still a good enough center to be a #2 behind Sakic.

For a summary, the Avs still trade for Roy, Bourque and Blake in this scenario, and still win 2 Stanley Cups, with their 2nd one more likely coming in 1997 instead of 2001. The one thing all of this is still contingent on is them moving from QC to Denver.

If forsberg stays in philly, the flyers would have retained the depth and 1st round pick they gave to the nords. Think about i: you'd have a core of:

-Forsberg, Brind'amour and Ricci as your first 3 centers, with Brind'amour able to play left wing if needed.

-Mark Recchi and Mikael Renberg as your main wingers

-Chris Simon, a very useful bottom 6 grinder.

-Steve duchesne, a power play quarterback, which means terry carkner doesn't get traded for another PP QB in Yves Racine. For this scenario Dmitri Yushkevich stays in philly instead of being traded to toronto for their 1st, so philly drafts Briere.

-the 1993 1st round pick, which could either turn into Jocelyn Thibault or Kenny Johnsson. Lets say they pick Jonsson.

-Hextall never leaving in the first place.

so you'll have:

Forsberg
Brind'amour
Ricci
Recchi
Renberg
Simon

Duchesne
Johnsson
Yushkevich
Carkner
Therien

Hextall

That is already decent enough. If they still trade for leclair and deskardins, though...

Forsberg
Brind'amour
Ricci
Leclair
Renberg
Simon
Martin gelinas, maybe? I know IRL, there never was anything that suggested the flyers were interested in claiming him on waivers in 1993...still, they kinda need a top 6 winger in both scenarios (recchi staying, recchi being traded for leclair and desjardins )...

Their defense is incredible, though

Johnsson
Desjardins
Duchesne
Yushkevich
Carkner
Niinima
Therien
Svoboda

Holy crap, that defense, man...
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,611
3,610
Owen Nolan would be in the Hall of Fame if the Avs hadn't traded him to San Jose

What a kick in the teeth that must've been for him. Drafted 1st overall in '90, he's one of the first foundational pieces of their rebuild, goes through the growing pains that rebuilding teams experience, and just as the team is ready to emerge from that rebuild as one of the league's top contenders, BOOM! He's traded 9 games into the '95 season to the goddamn San Jose Sharks, a team that will win just 20 games

8 months after being dealt, his former teammates were hoisting the Cup
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad