Your opinion of the much polarized Mike Keenan

[LightningStorm]

Mike Keenan is among the most polarizing figures in NHL history. Some fans liked his abrasive approach to coaching since he did coach some successful teams, while others pointed out this often lead to his short tenures with teams.

My view of him is he was good in the first half of his coaching career in his 4 year stints in both Philadelphia and Chicago. He got a lot out of teams that consistently had deep playoff runs, and 5 of those 8 seasons they lost to the eventual champs. I can see why Roenick holds Keenan in high regard for when he played for him during this time.

But his single season in New York was where he really started going off the deep end. I've heard Ranger fans say they think they won the cup more in spite of Keenan than because of him, and that seems accurate. Heck, he even once benched Leetch while he was in the middle of his Conn Smythe playoff year. His feud with Neil Smith is well known, to the point where they couldn't even coexist after winning a cup together in their first season. Keenan secretly talking to other teams during the finals wasn't acceptable under any circumstance.

After his lone season in NY, it was as if he became a caricature of himself the rest of his career. Feuds with Gretzky, Hull and Linden during his next 2 stops in St. Louis and Vancouver. Hull told a story about Keenan scratching Dale Hawerchuk when he had the final chance to play in front of his dying Grandma, and that was gutless. Gretzky left St. Louis in large part because of him.

All in all I viewed him as a good coach with the Flyers and Blackhawks before becoming an abrasive caricature of himself the rest of his career. What's your opinion of him?

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[The Panther]

You summarized it well. He was a very old-school coach at a time when player-coach relations were changing, so after the mid-90s or so, he seemed a man out of time. That said, he was an innovator in terms of the short-shift game.

It's fine to be idiosyncratic if it serves a higher purpose, but Keenan seemed to pointlessly be weird for no reason (hatred of Yzerman, running star players down, pulling goalies multiple times in a game, etc.).

After a while, people had simply had enough of him, but in the mid-/late-80s, he got a lot out of those Flyers.

Had some success with Calgary in the 2000s, as well.

My friend once said that Keenan liked to go around all the time quoting passages from The Great Gatsby. Can anyone confirm or deny?

 

[sr edler]

I haven't actually read The Great Gatsby but from trying to watch the film and reading reviews of it it comes across a bit empty and shallow, so I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Keenan found it (or still finds it) profoundly interesting and deep in thought. Unless he just did it to annoy people. Or unless Fitzgerald himself brought a lot of meta stuff to it, to annoy people.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You summarized it well. He was a very old-school coach at a time when player-coach relations were changing, so after the mid-90s or so, he seemed a man out of time. That said, he was an innovator in terms of the short-shift game.

It's fine to be idiosyncratic if it serves a higher purpose, but Keenan seemed to pointlessly be weird for no reason (hatred of Yzerman, running star players down, pulling goalies multiple times in a game, etc.).

After a while, people had simply had enough of him, but in the mid-/late-80s, he got a lot out of those Flyers.

Had some success with Calgary in the 2000s, as well.

My friend once said that Keenan liked to go around all the time quoting passages from The Great Gatsby. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Bolded is an oxymoron.

Mike Keenan was a one-trick pony when it came to coaching. Counter his one trick - the short shift game and he was lost. Evidence the goalie manipulations. Happened in games when Keenan was outprepared by the opposing coach. Needed time to adjust. Switching goalies accomplished this while deflecting the problem away from his shortcomings as a coach.

 

[The Panther]

Bolded is an oxymoron.

It seems you missed, or don't understand the function of, the term "That said" in my sentence, between the two parts you bolded. It functions as a concession. In other words, I am conceding that while Keenan was generally an 'old-school' coach (particularly in terms of player-coach relations), he was admittedly an innovator in terms of the short shifts.

Mike Keenan was a one-trick pony when it came to coaching. Counter his one trick - the short shift game and he was lost. Evidence the goalie manipulations. Happened in games when Keenan was outprepared by the opposing coach. Needed time to adjust. Switching goalies accomplished this while deflecting the problem away from his shortcomings as a coach.

I mean, he was known as "Captain Hook" by the very early-90s if not late-80s. As an NHL coach from 1984 through 1994, his regular season record was 395-252-77 (.599), he finished 1st overall with all three teams he had coached, and he went to the Finals with all three (and won the Cup, of course, in '94). So, I'm not sure why he would have felt he had shortcomings.

 

[The Panther]

My comment above makes me wonder: Bowman aside (Montreal, Pittsburgh, Detroit), has any other coach led three different franchises to 1st overall? Or been to the Finals with three franchises?

 

[sr edler]

Didn't Alain Vigneault win three Presidents' Trophies?

 

[The Panther]

Didn't Alain Vigneault win three Presidents' Trophies?

He's won it with two franchises -- NYR and Vancouver.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Or been to the Finals with three franchises?

Dick Irvin and Peter Laviolette...

 

[Voight]

My comment above makes me wonder: Bowman aside (Montreal, Pittsburgh, Detroit), has any other coach led three different franchises to 1st overall? Or been to the Finals with three franchises?

Laviolette is a recent example.

Pat Quinn, Pat Burns, Fred Shero & Mike Babcock are a couple guys who went to the finals with two different teams.

Burns came within an uncalled Gretzky high stick of making it to 3.

 

[sr edler]

He's won it with two franchises -- NYR and Vancouver.

Who cares. NYR had already won the Presidents in 91–92, just two seasons prior and with more or less the exact same core as in 93–94, perhaps even a worse core, so it's not exactly like Michael Edward came in and propelled an unexperienced nobody team to unprecedented regular seasons heights right out of the dimmest nowhere.

Celebrating a coach for his short shell life, you should also celebrate star players who gets traded each third or fourth year.

 

[JackSlater]

Good motivator but with a short shelf life. Innovated with the emphasis on short shifts but didn't keep evolving. Tried to emulate Bowman but it was an act that players saw through before long.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Good motivator but with a short shelf life. Innovated with the emphasis on short shifts but didn't keep evolving. Tried to emulate Bowman but it was an act that players saw through before long.

Bowman had the ability to coach any type of NHL game. Keenan did not.

Short shifts go back to at least the 1925 SC finals and Lester Patrick, 20+ years before Keenan was even born. The short shift game was used regularly to level the ice in scheduling mismatches - team playing three games in four nights playing a rested team - six days rest.

Keenan was the first to use it all the time. Worked in Canadian University hockey, the minors, against the Soviets. In the NHL against teams and players who could adjust, Keenan never had a Plan B, C,..... So he had to stall and reset.

 

[JackSlater]

Bowman had the ability to coach any type of NHL game. Keenan did not.

Short shifts go back to at least the 1925 SC finals and Lester Patrick, 20+ years before Keenan was even born. The short shift game was used regularly to level the ice in scheduling mismatches - team playing three games in four nights playing a rested team - six days rest.

Keenan was the first to use it all the time. Worked in Canadian University hockey, the minors, against the Soviets. In the NHL against teams and players who could adjust, Keenan never had a Plan B, C,..... So he had to stall and reset.

Yes, that's why I said the emphasis on short shifts and not the invention of short shifts.

 

[DickSmehlik]

- I remember Hull blasting him publicly when he was with the Blues. Always thought it wasn't a good situation to have the face of your franchise alienated so much.

-If I recall correctly, he did not like to practice the power play, which pi$$ed off some of his star players.

-One of the first, if not the first, to institute the "death skate". 2 hour practices without pucks and sticks, just players skating lapses.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

if we're giving keenan credit for helping to popularize short shifts, does he also deserve recognition for being the one of the first guys to systematically work his goalie to the bone in the 80+ game era?

in keenan's first year, pelle lindbergh led the league in games with 65, then went all the way to the finals. lindbergh wins the vezina, the flyers win the presidents trophy.

in year two, the year of lindbergh's death, he kept bob froese to a reasonable number of games because bob froese was not that kind of star goalie.

in '87 he rides rookie hextall, who led the league with 66 games, back to the finals. hextall is 3rd in games in '88, 2nd in '89. hextall won the vezina in '87.

in 1990, he goes to chicago but doesn't have the horses. when he finds that horse, rookie belfour, he plays him a league leading 74 games in '91, taking the vezina while chicago wins the presidents trophy. then belfour has an uneven '92 regular season after he missed training camp and the first month of the season. they did make the finals that year, though.

keenan jumps ship to new york in '94, where richter is "only" 6th with 68 games. obviously the rest of the league has caught up with workhorses by this point. presidents trophy, cup.

jumps ship again to st louis, where for some reason he doesn't believe in cujo so he doesn't ride him, but then picks up an aging grant fuhr and plays him a then-record 79 games in '96 and 29 out of 33 games in '97 before getting fired (fuhr finished one game behind felix potvin for league lead that year).

then he goes to vancouver, where he loses the plot, playing the mediocre garth snow 39 out of 45 games before he gets fired. at that pace, he was on pace for finishing ahead of brodeur for #1 in the league over the full 82.

later he turns luongo into a workhorse and plays kiprusoff 76 games in back-to-back years.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

also, maybe he also deserves credit as a guy who went out of his way to import other organizations' cultures by acquiring their guys?

in chicago, he started hoarding islanders. then of course all of the oilers he brought to new york.

in the decade after the new york oilers won the cup, the cup was passed back and forth between new jersey, colorado, detroit, and dallas all importing habs alumni. detroit just brought in bowman, but they leaned heavily on former red army guys.

odd also that keenan for his canada cup teams went to the islanders and oilers well, sometimes almost to the exclusion of the habs guys you'd expect him to take, while literally the entire decade after the rangers cup was led by ex-habs.

 

[GMR]

- I remember Hull blasting him publicly when he was with the Blues. Always thought it wasn't a good situation to have the face of your franchise alienated so much.

-If I recall correctly, he did not like to practice the power play, which pi$$ed off some of his star players.

-One of the first, if not the first, to institute the "death skate". 2 hour practices without pucks and sticks, just players skating lapses.

I still can't wrap my head around Shayne Corson being named captain.

The nicest thing I can say about Keenan is that I enjoy hearing players' stories of him and some of his quirks.

 

[scott clam]

Seems like he was a good coach for contending teams but he also burned teams out really fast.

As a GM in St. Louis he was absolutely brutal. Is anyone more hated over there?

Edit: he definitely deserves a TON of credit for spearheading the fitness revolution in the '80s Philly as well as the '90s with Chicago. He made sure his athletes ate properly and he pulled ashtrays out of the chicago stadium dressing room.

During the 87 Canada Cup the Oiler dynasty guys were shocked by the prepared meals of lean chicken with vegetables and rice. Fhey were used to steaks and ice cream!

 

[The Panther]

Laviolette is a recent example.

It seems he and Keenan are the only examples since Dick Irvin in 1944. (besides Bowman, of course)

 

[Zippgunn]

...and let's not forget his KHL championship. He was a weird one alright. As a Canuck fan I hated him but he did have his successes here and there. NYR fans dissing him while he won them a very rare (for them) Cup is odd to me. Not a "warm" man by most accounts.

 

[member 83027]

Seems like he was a good coach for contending teams but he also burned teams out really fast.

As a GM in St. Louis he was absolutely brutal. Is anyone more hated over there?

What made him brutal as a GM in St Louis?

Pronger?
Demitra?
Turgeon?

Can't stand him and hated when they hired him. Couldn't believe they went after him a 2nd time after losing out to Chicago when he went there.

There were many folks who were loving it when they hired him. Keenan didn't change, he was exactly the same. The person people should be pissed at for Keenan (if they are) is Jack Quinn.

 

[scott clam]

What made him brutal as a GM in St Louis?

Pronger?
Demitra?
Turgeon?

Can't stand him and hated when they hired him. Couldn't believe they went after him a 2nd time after losing out to Chicago when he went there.

There were many folks who were loving it when they hired him. Keenan didn't change, he was exactly the same. The person people should be pissed at for Keenan (if they are) is Jack Quinn.

Well Gretzky refused to sign because of him. He ran Cujo out of town, if I am not mistaken. He was always clashing with Brett Hull and eventually lost his job over it.

Some of these may be more criticisms of him as a coach then as a GM, but the guy was constantly pulling trades, and was a dividing force in the dressing room. If you take Brett Hull's word for it anyway, which I do.

He really lived up to the "Captain Hook" nickname with the Blues.

 

[Big Phil]

I always thought that Keenan outside of hockey and just one on one is likely a good man to talk to. Just my experience seeing him as an analyst at different times. There isn't the "Iron Mike"-ness in him as when he was a coach.

Look, there are lots of things to like about him as a coach even if he wore out his welcome at times. The 1987 Canada Cup he had a closed door meeting with the big names. Bottom line, according to Keenan, it was all about working the team too hard and it came down to whether or not they loved their country. I guess the meeting ended well so something good must of come out of it. And we won, so.............

But there was that stubbornness about him too. I thought he was a smart hockey man, but sometimes these guys can read their own press clippings. It is true we won in 1987 and 1991 but how on earth do you cut Yzerman by 1991? You have to go beyond that "I am the smartest guy in the room" thing. I don't buy into the fact that we won because of Keenan's moves in 1991. Maybe in 1987 in part, but not 1991. I always felt Bowman had this personality about him too. Great coach, smart coach, but was capable of holding a grudge at times too, like with Coffey.

I think Keenan's style worked in the 1980s and part of the 1990s. It would have been perfect in the original 6 era, he'd have blended in quite well I think. But once the players starting making the money they were making it changed and if you can run to your agent and demand a trade or if you know you are making several million more than your coach it can change how you react to his toughness on you.

Mike Babcock is still of the old school and there are some that hate that and just can't wait until he leaves Toronto because they figure he can't relate to the modern athlete. I don't know, I think that can still work where you aren't "buddy/buddy" with the coach.

 

[JianYang]

The one thing I remember similar about bowman and Keenan is that they would both munch on ice behind the bench.

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