You can't have too many centers, can ya? (the Sharks have TEN in the playoffs)

[VanIslander]

2016 Stanley Cup Finalist: San Jose Sharks

Thornton, C
Pavelski, C
Couture, C
Marleau, C
Wingels, C
Hertl, C
Tierney, C
Karlsson, C
Zubrus, C
Spaling, C

There are only three natural wingers with any ice time on the Sharks!

Pavs played years and years as C before going on Thornton's wing. Hertl was a C who was converted to get ice time.

Marleau was a natural C who played LW with Couture for years before DeBoer returned him to C on the 3rd line this season.

I recall that one reason often given for Team Canada's failings back in 1998 was "too many centers". That has been a theme of national team selections ever since. The San Jose organization has ignored that "wisdom" and put centers on the ice on the wing without fear or concern.

EDIT: They have four natural wingers if you include Burns whom Minnesota converted to a defenseman and who is a D this season (against my wishes, but dang, what a wise decision, given his offense from there, though he costs goals sometimes: Burns was great as Thornton's RW but Pavs is even better! Pavs is slow but has incredible decision making and shot).

Click to read more...

 

[Hynh]

This is why Dubois > Tkachuk.

 

[VanIslander]

How many Pens are "natural centers"? (that is, were centers in juniors or youth but were converted during their NHL career to wing or d).

 

[CrypTic]

How many Pens are "natural centers"? (that is, were centers in juniors or youth but were converted during their NHL career to wing or d).

I'd like to know for other teams as well, if anyone has that info.

 

[Alwalys]

It's because the answer is always C.

 

[Regal]

Team Canada agrees

 

[Laveuglette]

Flyers :

Giroux (used to be a RW though, but now listed as a center on nhl.com)
Couturier
Schenn
Gagner
White
Umberger
Cousins
Laughton
VandeVelde

are all listed as centers.

 

[stepdad gaary]

How many Pens are "natural centers"? (that is, were centers in juniors or youth but were converted during their NHL career to wing or d).

7 on the roster. 5 who are currently playing

 

[SnarkAttack]

Too many centers is a bad thing if your centers aren't intelligent and versatile.

 

[StroShow]

How many Pens are "natural centers"? (that is, were centers in juniors or youth but were converted during their NHL career to wing or d).

Crosby
Malkin
Bonino
Cullen
Fehr

 

[Dain Bramaged]

Benning disagrees.

 

[VanIslander]

Too many centers is a bad thing if your centers aren't intelligent and versatile.

Really? Which one of these below wasn't?

Rod Brind'Amour - Philadelphia Flyers
Wayne Gretzky (A) - New York Rangers
Trevor Linden - New York Islanders
Eric Lindros (C) - Philadelphia Flyers
Joe Nieuwendyk - Dallas Stars
Keith Primeau - Carolina Hurricanes
Joe Sakic - Colorado Avalanche
Steve Yzerman (A) - Detroit Red Wings
Rob Zamuner- Tampa Bay Lightning

The above is the 1998 Olympic team for Canada that was criticized for having too many centers.

Was it because they were stupid and entrenched? Or, simply because they are out of position.

 

[Headshot77]

Really? Which one of these below wasn't?


The above is the 1998 Olympic team for Canada that was criticized for having too many centers.

Was it because they were stupid and entrenched? Or, simply because they are out of position.

This is a total straw man argument; he didn't say anything about the 1998 Olympic team, lol. He is just saying it helps when you have centers who can also play wing very well.

 

[SnarkAttack]

Really? Which one of these below wasn't?

The above is the 1998 Olympic team for Canada that was criticized for having too many centers.

Was it because they were stupid and entrenched? Or, simply because they are out of position.

That lack of being able to play multiple positions would be the versatility aspect of my statement. Thanks for agreeing?

Your argument "against" my statement seems to support my opinion. At no point did I call those players unintelligent, but they clearly didn't have the right type of versatility to create a complete and cohesive lineup. That's more on the people who put the team together than the players.

It has nothing to do with too many centers, it has everything to do with too many centers that are unable to effectively play winger.

EDIT: I really wasn't referencing that team initially, as the poster above says, but explaining why the Sharks CAN do it while some teams can't. They have the right players to do this with.

 

[VanIslander]

That lack of being able to play multiple positions would be the versatility aspect of my statement.

 

[SnarkAttack]

Ability to play multiple positions can be otherwise known as versatility.

I was explaining how your response to my initial assertion that the centers need to be both intelligent and versatile didn't make sense. The players you listed were all very good, intelligent, players, but not versatile in the sense that they can effectively play wing proficiently at that point of their careers.

Taken out of context, my statement makes no sense. In the context of responding to you it makes perfect sense.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Too many centers is a bad thing if your centers aren't intelligent and versatile.

Really? Which one of these below wasn't?


The above is the 1998 Olympic team for Canada that was criticized for having too many centers.

Was it because they were stupid and entrenched? Or, simply because they are out of position.

Brind'Amour - Philadelphia Flyers
Wayne Gretzky (A) - New York Rangers
Trevor Linden - New York Islanders
Eric Lindros (C) - Philadelphia Flyers
Joe Nieuwendyk - Dallas Stars
Keith Primeau - Carolina Hurricanes
Joe Sakic - Colorado Avalanche
Steve Yzerman (A) - Detroit Red Wings
Rob Zamuner- Tampa Bay Lightning

the bolded were either one, the other, or both. difficult to imagine wayne playing anything but C either, but i think he's more than smart enough to make it work if you were stupid enough to try it.

but yeah, you take brindy, linden, zamuner, guys who played full seasons at both wing and center in the NHL, all day long over dedicated wingers or centers of the same ability. like jeff carter today, or messier back in the day.

fwiw sakic was injured, wasn't he?

 

[Kcoyote3]

Could also be there's a difference between an Olympic team that is thrown together with little prior experience playing together and out of position and the lack of preparedness showed vs. a team that's been together for years and the players have adapted to their various positions on that same team.

 

[Windy River]

Makes sense. The most skilled players naturally gravitate to the C position. This starts early in player development.

 

[MrGold]

The San Jose organization has ignored that "wisdom" and put centers on the ice on the wing without fear or concern.

There isn't any "wisdom" being ignored here. The best players are generally (Notice the word "generally" here) playing center in youth hockey, because they're the ones that can skate, have a better vision, passing skills, etc. It's only at higher levels or in competitive leagues that some "centers" are moved to wings. Basically, most good forwards have likely played center for extended time at some point in their career.

Now, that's not to say centers would necessarily make better wingers because they may (or may not) be better players generally/overall. Winger, just like any other position, has it's own intricacies that take time to perfect. However, drafting centers probably leads to a greater chance of success at the NHL level, if only by a few percentage points. And in a world of parity, a few percentage points here and there is often all it takes to get an advantage.

 

[Alwalys]

The real reason is San Jose has drafted late for a long time and talent depth at center is greater because of the post above.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

There is a huge difference between "listed as a center" and actual center.

For instance, to my knowledge Wingels hasn't played a shift at center at the National Hockey League level. Hertl hasn't played any center at all this season under DeBoer. Ditto Karlsson.

They have more than most but not everybody plays center for the Sharks. In fact, other than face-offs Pavelski has been an exclusive right-winger this season.

It would be awesome if these 'lists' were updated or even eliminated, because it creates a lot of false info. Or at least lazy info.

 

[Semantics]

Makes sense. The most skilled players naturally gravitate to the C position. This starts early in player development.

This. Has nothing to do with the Sharks success. The Leafs had lots of centers too - even Komarov and Kessel were/are listed as centers. Look how far that got them.

 

[Alwalys]

There is a huge difference between "listed as a center" and actual center.

For instance, to my knowledge Wingels hasn't played a shift at center at the National Hockey League level. Hertl hasn't played any center at all this season under DeBoer. Ditto Karlsson.

Hertl played 2nd and 3rd line center for some time this year. http://www.fearthefin.com/2015/10/23/9603862/so-far-so-good-tomas-hertls-move-to-center
Believe it or not he's our best faceoff man.

 

[CrypTic]

There is a huge difference between "listed as a center" and actual center.

For instance, to my knowledge Wingels hasn't played a shift at center at the National Hockey League level. Hertl hasn't played any center at all this season under DeBoer. Ditto Karlsson.

They have more than most but not everybody plays center for the Sharks. In fact, other than face-offs Pavelski has been an exclusive right-winger this season.

It would be awesome if these 'lists' were updated or even eliminated, because it creates a lot of false info. Or at least lazy info.

The discussion was about natural centers, not how a player is listed on NHL.com

Hertl played as a center this year. He was only moved to wing bc he was dominating possession as a center but not getting many points so PDB wanted to reward him by moving him to Thornton's wing. Pavs has played wing since Brown injured Hertl's knee so I think of him as a winger but he's a natural center, which is what OP'was talking about. According to an interview with Jumbo on NHL.com IIRC, the Hertl - Thornton - Pavelski line thinks of themselves as three centers. I don't think of them that way but that's how they see themselves.

It can be hard to update in a timely manner. E.g., both Marleau (listed as a LW last i checked) and Hertl played a fair amount at both center and wing this past season so either designation is only going to be partially correct. I agree that Pavs should be updated but if he sees himself as a center, I understand why the Sharks don't change the designation.