Years where the Conn Smythe was up in the air

[Derick*]

I don't see how Pronger could have won in 2010. Versteeg and Sharp absolutely embarrassing him in Game 5 of the final was basically the turning point for the Stanley Cup. If a Flyer were to win in 2010, it's tough to argue against Briere.

It stands to reason figuring out how to counter the best player in the playoffs would be the turning point. I assure you nothing involving Kris Draper was ever the turning point for the winning team in a series!

Hextall and Giguere let in the game winning goal years they won the Conn Smythe. Do GWGs count as turning points?

Pronger, in addition to being defensively great, had the most points by a defenseman in any of the last four playoffs (I always use since 2008 as a reference because scoring was so much higher the two prior seasons).

I don't see how you can deny that Pronger should have won it in 2010 unless you think the losing team should never win it.

 

[VanIslander]

1997. Vernon won by default, the least worthy winner in the last quarter century, of that I'm sure from what I've seen.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Vernon was excellent, but the MVP was clearly Fedorov.

 

[Plural]

When it comes to the Conn Smythe Trophy, there have been years where, by the end of the playoffs and the last game, it was seen as a no-brainer (i.e. Gretzky in '85 and '88 or Tim Thomas last year).

But there have also been years where, before the Conn Smythe winner was annouced, we often thought 'There are a lot of guys who could win it- I could see this guy or that guy winning it.'

What are some years that are more of the latter (Where there were multiple guys in the running, not one stand-out)?

To me, the following years were among those I recall wide-open:

2010 (Toews, Keith, Byufglien, Niemi were all candidates down the stretch)

2007 (Niedermayer won it, but I thought Giguere had a serious shot at becoming a two-time winner, Pahlsson, and Andy MacDonald all were in the running; plus Alfredsson as the 'valiant effort on SCF runner-up' player)

2004 (Brad Richards, Khabibulin, St. Louis for Tampa; Iginla and Kipper if Calgary won game 6)

1999 (Nieuwendyk and Belfour for Dallas, possibly Hasek in a losing effort)

Would have most definetly been Kipper's smythe.

 

[Plural]

Imagine if Giguerre won it again in 2007? Might make crap a TON more interesting in terms of his all-time status.

I think 02, 99, 06, 07, 08 and 09 were all "could have".

Some of the disagreements from me:

1999-Nieuwendyk, would have voted for Hasek or Forsberg ( if that's possible ).
2006-Ward, would have voted for Pisani on the losing side or maybe Staal.
2009-Malkin, Osgood or Franzen would have been good choices.

Malkin was the only right choice. Dude got one of the most profilic post-season performances ever. If you argue Malkin not being the clear number one, then you should do the same for Tim Thomas.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

It stands to reason figuring out how to counter the best player in the playoffs would be the turning point. I assure you nothing involving Kris Draper was ever the turning point for the winning team in a series!

Hextall and Giguere let in the game winning goal years they won the Conn Smythe. Do GWGs count as turning points?

Pronger, in addition to being defensively great, had the most points by a defenseman in any of the last four playoffs (I always use since 2008 as a reference because scoring was so much higher the two prior seasons).

I don't see how you can deny that Pronger should have won it in 2010 unless you think the losing team should never win it.

Chris Pronger's Game 5 was surely one of the worst SC Final game performances of all time from a probable HOF player. On the ice or in the penalty box for every goal against in a 7-4 loss.

Basically, Joel Quenneville took four games to wake up and realise that playing speedy agile players against a big, slow-footed defenseman was a better idea than playing big, slow Dustin Byfuglien against him. As soon as Pronger had to face an unfavourable matchup, he got obliterated. It's just impossible for me to give a player on the losing team the Smythe when his god-awful performance in the final two games was ultimately the turning point.

 

[Epsilon]

I'm not sure why people think Pronger was that great in the 2010 playoffs. Yeah he had a lot of points but overall he wasn't really that amazing, especially not to the level required for a player on a losing team to win the Conn Smythe. In particular I didn't really feel like he played that big of a role in the 3-0 comeback against the Bruins. Briere was the best player on the 2010 Flyers, and as far as the Conn Smythe goes I think Keith should have won it.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Chris Pronger's Game 5 was surely one of the worst SC Final game performances of all time from a probable HOF player. On the ice or in the penalty box for every goal against in a 7-4 loss.

Basically, Joel Quenneville took four games to wake up and realise that playing speedy agile players against a big, slow-footed defenseman was a better idea than playing big, slow Dustin Byfuglien against him. As soon as Pronger had to face an unfavourable matchup, he got obliterated. It's just impossible for me to give a player on the losing team the Smythe when his god-awful performance in the final two games was ultimately the turning point.

He was a plus-player in Game 6, and he still outscored Toews in the Final.

I'm not sure why people think Pronger was that great in the 2010 playoffs. Yeah he had a lot of points but overall he wasn't really that amazing, especially not to the level required for a player on a losing team to win the Conn Smythe.

I heard a rumor that in addition to scoring a lot of points, he played a little bit of defense too. Can't confirm it just yet.

 

[jkrx]

I don't think the loser is picked often enough.

Would have picked Hasek in 1999 and Pronger in both 2006 and 2010.

Timonen was much better than Pronger in 2010.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If the answer is that the people who believe Niedermayer deserved it (you are one of those people, unless you've changed your mind recently) didn't watch Giguere in three-quarters of the playoffs, then exactly how controversial is it (they didn't watch him!)? We might as well say that every year is in controversy, because the opposing team's fans have only watched their team's games.

And no one should ever confuse a .992 SPCT in a Western Conference Final with being "relatively easy." His team still only registered two goals-per-game in the series. Had he played anything below a .927, his team would've been in serious trouble.



Yeah, I really doubt the vote was split all that much. Obviously, there are some people that don't like losers to win the Conn Smythe, but other than that, there's really no way to justify saying any one player on the Devils was more responsible for his team's success (16 Wins) than Giguere was for his team's success (15 Wins).

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=24616

First off, you know not even Conn Smythe voters watch every came in the first two rounds, at least not closely.

You can recite save percentages until you are blue in the face; Giguere was barely tested against Minnesota. And yes; he was still excellent in that series in his limited work, which is what te save percentage shows.

I though Niedermayer was clearly the best player through the final two rounds and to me that was more important. I've come to begrudgingly admit Giguere was A (not THE) deserving choice by the number of fans who swear up and down that he was godlike against Detroit and Dallas.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Timonen was much better than Pronger in 2010.

I don't think Peonger should have won it either, but he outscored Timonen while getting the tougher defensive assignments.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't see how Pronger could have won in 2010. Versteeg and Sharp absolutely embarrassing him in Game 5 of the final was basically the turning point for the Stanley Cup. If a Flyer were to win in 2010, it's tough to argue against Briere.

Come on Kyle, don't you know? The finals are the least important series

(I do get the point about Toews though. He didn't do anything in the finals himself. I would have voted Keith first, Kane second)

 

[jkrx]

I don't think Peonger should have won it either, but he outscored Timonen while getting the tougher defensive assignments.

I dodnt watch them the whole playoff so maybe you are right but in the finals it was Timonen all the way compared to Pronger.

 

[quoipourquoi]

First off, you know not even Conn Smythe voters watch every came in the first two rounds, at least not closely.

You can recite save percentages until you are blue in the face; Giguere was barely tested against Minnesota. And yes; he was still excellent in that series in his limited work, which is what te save percentage shows.

I though Niedermayer was clearly the best player through the final two rounds and to me that was more important. I've come to begrudgingly admit Giguere was A (not THE) deserving choice by the number of fans who swear up and down that he was godlike against Detroit and Dallas.

I just don't think you're giving him nearly enough credit for Minnesota (who were about as good offensively as Anaheim, but you're giving full marks to the Devils for beating Anaheim in a series twice as long). It was 270 minutes and 123 shots against in the series with the Wild - who had just averaged 3 goals-per-game against Colorado and Vancouver - and he was beaten once. If it's only "limited work," it's because letting in one goal on 123 shots in 270 minutes means that the other team is getting swept.

This is not something you should have to "come to begrudgingly admit." And even if you didn't watch three rounds, it's not that difficult just to catch SportsCenter. Or CNN; he was on there too.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Come on Kyle, don't you know? The finals are the least important series

You can joke about it, but you're basically saying in regard to Giguere that while you've heard that he was "God like," you didn't watch those series, but you feel you can offer a credible opinion that he didn't deserve to be MVP anyway, because only what you have seen counts towards the Conn Smythe. And God forbid someone shows you the Save Percentage until he's "blue in the face;" you didn't see the 99.2%, so Niedermayer was probably more valuable to his team.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I dodnt watch them the whole playoff so maybe you are right but in the finals it was Timonen all the way compared to Pronger.

I thought Pronger was awesome at the beginning of the finals, but once he did y have Big Buff to push around anymore, he was exposed

 

[Derick*]

Timonen was much better than Pronger in 2010.

False

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I just don't think you're giving him nearly enough credit for Minnesota (who were about as good offensively as Anaheim, but you're giving full marks to the Devils for beating Anaheim in a series twice as long). It was 270 minutes and 123 shots against in the series with the Wild - who had just averaged 3 goals-per-game against Colorado and Vancouver - and he was beaten once. If it's only "limited work," it's because letting in one goal on 123 shots in 270 minutes means that the other team is getting swept.

This is not something you should have to "come to begrudgingly admit." And even if you didn't watch three rounds, it's not that difficult just to catch SportsCenter. Or CNN; he was on there too.

Come on, did we watch the same WCF? Minnesota clearly overachieved against Colorado and Vancouver (two offensive minded teams) and still needed an epic choke by Vancouver to advance. They had practically nothing left against Anaheim and looked like they were skating in mud against Anaheim's trap... I mean defensive system.

Giguere broke all kinds of records in that series but I view it as similar to Hasek's shutout record in 2002 and Brodeur breaking it in 2003 - the goalie had to play very well but his team sure made it easy on him.

I think you out an average goalie in net and Anaheim still wins the WCF, just not nearly as easily (this is a fictional world where they are in the WCF without Giguere, who obviously carried them through two rounds).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You can joke about it, but you're basically saying in regard to Giguere that while you've heard that he was "God like," you didn't watch those series, but you feel you can offer a credible opinion that he didn't deserve to be MVP anyway, because only what you have seen counts towards the Conn Smythe. And God forbid someone shows you the Save Percentage until he's "blue in the face;" you didn't see the 99.2%, so Niedermayer was probably more valuable to his team.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I followed the earlier rounds in the west, but not as closely as the East. (Did you watch every Devils game of the first two rounds? I doubt it).

Unlike a lot of people, I do put stock in the eyes of others.

As for the .992 it was your response to my statement that Giguere had an easy time in the WCF, which was an argument that made no sense

 

[quoipourquoi]

I think you out an average goalie in net and Anaheim still wins the WCF, just not nearly as easily (this is a fictional world where they are in the WCF without Giguere, who obviously carried them through two rounds).

Anaheim only scored two goals-per-game against Minnesota. With the shots they allowed, Anaheim probably needs a goalie with at least a .927 to keep things even in terms of goal differential. Does an average goalie post a .927? In 2002-03, an average goalie was good for .909.

But are you seriously weighting the first and second rounds less? That's highly prejudicial against players on low-seeds. Anaheim was a 7th Seed - they needed all the help they could get against the 1st and 2nd Seeds.

 

[quoipourquoi]

As for the .992 it was your response to my statement that Giguere had an easy time in the WCF, which was an argument that made no sense

Because saying that it was easy competition (but not saying the same thing about the Devils' series against the Mighty Ducks) is dismissing the fact that posting a 99.2% in any series in never an "easy time."

You might as well be dismissing Jari Kurri because he didn't need all 12 of those goals against Chicago in 1985.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Anaheim only scored two goals-per-game against Minnesota. With the shots they allowed, Anaheim probably needs a goalie with at least a .927 to keep things even in terms of goal differential. Does an average goalie post a .927? In 2002-03, an average goalie was good for .909.

Against a spent Minnesota team that was getting off very few decent scoring chances? Quite possible

But are you seriously weighting the first and second rounds less? That's highly prejudicial against players on low-seeds. Anaheim was a 7th Seed - they needed all the help they could get against the 1st and 2nd Seeds.

Yes, I think it's reasonable to weigh the later rounds more. Actual Smythe voters obviously disagree. By the time the finals start, they usually seem to have made up their minds already (see Toews 2010)

 

[quoipourquoi]

Yes, I think it's reasonable to weigh the later rounds more.

So you think Giguere was somehow less valuable because the playoff seeding dictated that he play the two best teams in his Conference first and the "easy" team third?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So you think Giguere was somehow less valuable because the playoff seeding dictated that he play the two best teams in his Conference first and the "easy" team third?

No, I think the case against him winning the Smythe is he didn't play particularly well in the finals and that he didn't steal a single game for his team in the final two rounds

 

[quoipourquoi]

No, I think the case against him winning the Smythe is he didn't play particularly well in the finals and that he didn't steal a single game for his team in the final two rounds

Because Sykora was really doing him a favor in waiting 90 minutes to score the opening goal of Game 1 against Minnesota?