Wrong Award/All Star choices

[Saint Patty 33]

Sometimes the voters get it wrong? I am sure we all have opinions on players who wrongfully missed out on winning certain awards or All Star selections from over the years. Which stand out for you?


Few off the top of my mind...


1989 Hart
I understand Gretzky's impact on the Kings improvement but Mario had 85 goals, came within a hair of 200 points and took a pretty average Penguins team to within a win of the Conference final.

2003 Conn Smythe
Giguere's performance during the first three rounds was incredible but he was pretty ordinary in the Stanley Cup final, while his opponent (Brodeur) recorded 3 Shutouts in the Finals including Game 7.

Click to read more...

 

[Albatros]

A couple of committed Gretzky voters left Lemieux out completely in 1989, one even took Joe Mullen over him.

But I'll pick the 1996 Vezina vote, and GMs deciding that Jim Carey (.906) and Chris Osgood (.911) were the best goalies in the league with Dominik Hašek (.920) finishing solid 8th.

 

[Mike C]

Sometimes the voters get it wrong? I am sure we all have opinions on players who wrongfully missed out on winning certain awards or All Star selections from over the years. Which stand out for you?


Few off the top of my mind...


1989 Hart
I understand Gretzky's impact on the Kings improvement but Mario had 85 goals, came within a hair of 200 points and took a pretty average Penguins team to within a win of the Conference final.

2003 Conn Smythe
Giguere's performance during the first three rounds was incredible but he was pretty ordinary in the Stanley Cup final, while his opponent (Brodeur) recorded 3 Shutouts in the Finals including Game 7.

I've posted this elsewhere from time to time. 1981 Smythe to Goring was a travesty. That was Bossy's award. Trottier was more deserving than Goring as well

 

[Victorias]

A couple of committed Gretzky voters left Lemieux out completely in 1989, one even took Joe Mullen over him.

But I'll pick the 1996 Vezina vote, and GMs deciding that Jim Carey (.906) and Chris Osgood (.911) were the best goalies in the league with Dominik Hašek (.920) finishing solid 8th.

‘96 Vezina is definitely one of the strangest. Maybe a combination of Hasek fatigue and infatuation with an unheralded newcomer.

Re: the OP. ‘89 Hart has been discussed in at least one other thread and most would agree it should have been Mario.

‘03 Smythe went to the best and most valuable player of that year’s playoffs - the whole playoffs. Considering that’s the definition of the award I don’t see how anyone else deserved to win. Yes, Brodeur was better in the final but you could argue Stevens, Niedermayer, Langenbrunner, or Elias were equally valuable to the Devils. I don’t think you can argue anyone was as important to the Ducks as Giguere. That being said, it was a stupidly dead era and goaltending was perhaps overrated on both sides.

There are some other ones that have been discussed - like Luongo being robbed of the ‘04 Vezina - but some of the early Hart winners are really interesting and definitely “odd” by today’s (different) standards.

 

[Neutrinos]

Joseph should've won the '93 Vezina after he lead the league in the following stats:
.911 SV%, 57.4 GSAA, 77 GA%, 16.2 GPS

Joseph had just posted the 5th best single season GSAA in NHL history - a mark which stands today as the highest total since '76 - and then promptly finished a distant 3rd in voting behind the 2 goalies with the most wins that season, Belfour and Barrasso.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

2016 Smythe

Clearly the voters wanted to get Crosby a Smythe. It looks worse with the repeat Cup in 2017. If those 2 wins happened in the other order, Crosby has 1 Smythe not 2. 2016 was robbed from Kessel who led them in playoff goals and points. And both scored 4 in the Finals so it's not like that argument exists.

2013 Ovechkin

Ovechkin winning RW AS-1 and LW AS-2 in the same season because he was listed for both wings and voters are stupid is peak comedy. If a TV show did it as a joke we'd roll our eyes but it happened in real life.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Rob Blake over Lidstrom for 98 Norris.

Might not be the worst. But not a good choice.

 

[The Panther]

A couple of committed Gretzky voters left Lemieux out completely in 1989, one even took Joe Mullen over him.

Is there any way of knowing who these voters were?

(Presumably not the one who voted Brian Sutter over Gretzky for the Hart in 1985.)

 

[The Panther]

Rob Blake over Lidstrom for 98 Norris.

Might not be the worst. But not a good choice.

I agree. Rob Blake was great, but he got a bit overrated in the "size-fetish era".

In Lidstrom's favor, he did get that late-career (2011) Norris which was probably a bit of a career reward, so it all kind of evened out.

2016 Smythe

Clearly the voters wanted to get Crosby a Smythe. It looks worse with the repeat Cup in 2017. If those 2 wins happened in the other order, Crosby has 1 Smythe not 2. 2016 was robbed from Kessel who led them in playoff goals and points. And both scored 4 in the Finals so it's not like that argument exists.

I wouldn't say Kessel was "robbed". It was one of those playoffs where there wasn't one obvious, outstanding candidate. In the past, in these situations, it would go to the goalie. But in recent times and today, it goes to the captain / legend.

 

[Hockeyholic]

I agree. Rob Blake was great, but he got a bit overrated in the "size-fetish era".

In Lidstrom's favor, he did get that late-career (2011) Norris which was probably a bit of a career reward, so it all kind of evened out.

Agreed on the 2011 Norris. Weber isn't a slam dunk when it comes to HF talk. With that win, there is no question. He's in.

FTR, I do believe he will get in. I don't think it will be a super long wait.

 

[Aladyyn]

Agreed on the 2011 Norris. Weber isn't a slam dunk when it comes to HF talk. With that win, there is no question. He's in.

FTR, I do believe he will get in. I don't think it will be a super long wait.

I personally do think he's a slam dunk. Yeah he hasn't won the Norris but he has 2 of the closest 2nd place finishes and 3 more top 5s, with 4 post-season All-Star selections. His old-school playstyle will also likely buy him favor with the voters.

 

[norrisnick]

I agree. Rob Blake was great, but he got a bit overrated in the "size-fetish era".

In Lidstrom's favor, he did get that late-career (2011) Norris which was probably a bit of a career reward, so it all kind of evened out.

'11 was for the much more recent '09 voter fatigue blunder. Offensively Lidstrom had an iffy November and the writers were tripping over themselves the rest of the season "reporting" that "the Lidstrom era is over!"

It's even more amusing when you consider that Weber's hot start first 2-3 months is what "dethroned" Lidstrom and then he fell off a cliff and finished a distant 4th. At no point that season should Chara have been placed ahead of Lidstrom. Ditto Green, but voters could at least squint and look at offense with him.

So '11 can make up one of those two seasons, but not both.

 

[daver]

2016 Smythe

Clearly the voters wanted to get Crosby a Smythe. It looks worse with the repeat Cup in 2017. If those 2 wins happened in the other order, Crosby has 1 Smythe not 2. 2016 was robbed from Kessel who led them in playoff goals and points. And both scored 4 in the Finals so it's not like that argument exists.

Not all voters since 7 voted for Kessel and 2 voted for LeTang. And of those who "clearly" wanted him to win, they didn't help their cause by voting for the other candidate, Kessel, at #2. Your theory is full of holes.

2016 Conn Smythe Voting Results from TSN - NHL confimred - LetsGoPens.com

www.letsgopens.com

Crosby outplayed Kessel in three of their four series. Full marks to Kessel for putting up points on the PP (he was outscored by B and H at ES) and for exploiting 2nd/3rd lines and d-man pairings as Crosby took on the hardest matchups to free up the HBK line.

Do you think he puts up those PP points if the other team isn't focused on Crosby and Malkin?

Are you questioning that Crosby wasn't the centerpiece for one of the best puck possession Cup winners since the lockout?

 

[Michael Farkas]

The voting reflected how close it was between Crosby and Kessel. I had them neck and neck and I watched every playoff game for every team that year and kept a weekly-ish tally of the Smythe favorites that year. Kessel was slightly ahead for me, it would have been better if he converted his many goal scoring chances in the Final. But people act like this was some affront to God like Justin Williams in 2014.

Fact is, there was no real stand out performance from anyone. Crosby and Kessel were close. Crosby got the reputation tiebreaker. There's an extremely easy argument for him being the best player on the Cup winner though.

This 2016 Smythe has really taken on a mind of its own at this point...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Joseph should've won the '93 Vezina after he lead the league in the following stats:
.911 SV%, 57.4 GSAA, 77 GA%, 16.2 GPS

Joseph had just posted the 5th best single season GSAA in NHL history - a mark which stands today as the highest total since '76 - and then promptly finished a distant 3rd in voting behind the 2 goalies with the most wins that season, Belfour and Barrasso.

GM's picked the Vezina winners (a mistake to begin with) and of course wins mattered more to them.

Always wondered if there were GM's who didn't even bother, gave it to a lackey to submit. I'm sure most wouldn't consider voting for the Vezina to part of their serious duties.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I agree. Rob Blake was great, but he got a bit overrated in the "size-fetish era".

In Lidstrom's favor, he did get that late-career (2011) Norris which was probably a bit of a career reward, so it all kind of evened out.


I wouldn't say Kessel was "robbed". It was one of those playoffs where there wasn't one obvious, outstanding candidate. In the past, in these situations, it would go to the goalie. But in recent times and today, it goes to the captain / legend.

I'm pretty sure voters watching the playoffs carefully would have no trouble justifying Crosby over Kessel.

I might have taken Nick Bonino or Kris Letang over both of them.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Here are the playoff three star selections for the 2016 Pens:

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	Pts
Sidney Crosby	3​	1​	3​	14​
Matt Murray	2​	2​	1​	11​
Phil Kessel	1​	3​	1​	10​
Nick Bonino	2​	1​		8​
Bryan Rust	2​			6​
Evgeni Malkin	1​		3​	6​
Matt Cullen	1​	1​	1​	6​
Conor Sheary	1​	1​		5​
Kris Letang		2​	1​	5​
Carl Hagelin		2​		4​
Eric Fehr		1​		2​
Jeff Zatkoff		1​		2​
Chris Kunitz			1​	1​

Three stars voting is far from perfect. But it gives some support to the idea that the people who actually watched the Penguins play on a regular basis considered Crosby their most valuable player. If it was a contrived result to build Crosby's legacy, it's unlikely he would have been named the best player on a game by game basis.

(For what it's worth - I think the player who's most under-valued by the results above is Kris Letang. He played the best hockey of his career that spring. Bonino scored some big goals, but I thought the top four was pretty clearly, in some order, Crosby, Letang, Kessel and Murray).

 

[jigglysquishy]

The narrative in 2016 is that the Penguins had 3 first lines, with each anchored by one of Crosby, Malkin, Kessel.

With Letang playing great hockey, Murray being elite, it really was a team effort.

Watching live, I didn't really have a favourite for the Smythe. When Crosby was announced I wasn't shocked or anything.

If Kessel or Letang won it wouldn't be shocking either.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I generally dislike the binary nature of award voting, but it's particularly bad with the Smythe. We don't have historical records and the award only goes back to the 60s so we lack true comparative data.

Compare it to the Hart. We have voting finishes back to the 20s. And everyone on a playoff team is realistically eligible. 16 teams, 82 games. It's a big enough sample size where you learn something.

The Smythe only realistically has 1 eligible team playing 19-25 games. And usually it's the performance over the back 10 games that means the most.

So ya, Crosby won in 2016. But I still think his performances in 2008 and 2009 were better.

 

[MadLuke]

I feel like when you watched all the game, Crosby winning was not a surprise at all, not a clear stand out, not a surprise either.

in 2016:

Crosby: 6G, 11A, 17P, +8, 19:50 minute by game, 54% faceoff win
Kessel: 7G, 8A, 15P, +7, 17:09 minute by game
Malkin: 3G, 10A, 13P, +3, 16:19 minute by game, 42% faceoff win
Letang: 3G, 10A, 13P, +13, 27:56 minute by game
Murray: .943% save percentage, 24 GA in those 15W, only 2 time above 2goal, twice only 3 in 40 shot against effort.

During the playoff offensive zone face off start:
Kessel: 70%
Malkin: 73%
Crosby: 57%
Letang: 52%

------
Kessel's deployment was quite easier during those playoffs and Crosby had a little bit more points while playing significantly more hockey the games the Penguins won creating a stronger impression.

Crosby line was facing ice time wise more often: Vlasic/Braun, Niskanen/Alzner, Hedman/Callahan, Staal/Klein
Kessel line was Martin-Burns, Killorn-Garrison, Niskanen-Carlson, Fast-Skjey

Crosby line faced the most frequently foward they faced were Pavelski-thornton-Donskoi, Backstrom-Ovechkin-Oshie, Kreider-Zuccarello-Stepan, Callahan-Filppula-Kucherov
Kessel line faced the most frequently foward they faced were Couture-Tierney-Ward, Williams-Kuznetsov-Johansson, Fast-Staal-Hayes, Killon-Kucherov-Drouin

Argument for being close and a coin flip can be made but that does not make any option a bad one, Letang was excellent playing 28 minutes a night without great support at that position, Murray was .923 probably helped Crosby a bit that glut at the top give it to the face of the team.

This is far from the voting group putting Hasek 8th in Vezina with Jim Carry winning with Chris Osgood the runner up, which seem to have been putting way to much values on win's GAA and shutout that were still very popular stats at the time.

 

[Saint Patty 33]

‘96 Vezina is definitely one of the strangest. Maybe a combination of Hasek fatigue and infatuation with an unheralded newcomer.

Re: the OP. ‘89 Hart has been discussed in at least one other thread and most would agree it should have been Mario.

‘03 Smythe went to the best and most valuable player of that year’s playoffs - the whole playoffs. Considering that’s the definition of the award I don’t see how anyone else deserved to win. Yes, Brodeur was better in the final but you could argue Stevens, Niedermayer, Langenbrunner, or Elias were equally valuable to the Devils. I don’t think you can argue anyone was as important to the Ducks as Giguere. That being said, it was a stupidly dead era and goaltending was perhaps overrated on both sides.

There are some other ones that have been discussed - like Luongo being robbed of the ‘04 Vezina - but some of the early Hart winners are really interesting and definitely “odd” by today’s (different) standards.

I don't see how Stevens, Niedermayer or Langenbrunner were more valuable to that team than Brodeur.

I understand the "definition" of the award but it seems people were more focused on what Giguere did in the first three rounds as opposed to his average performance when it mattered most. I know Brodeur had his hiccups in the Finals but 3 Shutouts?

 

[Victorias]

I don't see how Stevens, Niedermayer or Langenbrunner were more valuable to that team than Brodeur.

I understand the "definition" of the award but it seems people were more focused on what Giguere did in the first three rounds as opposed to his average performance when it mattered most. I know Brodeur had his hiccups in the Finals but 3 Shutouts?

I’m not saying they were more valuable, but I could see them splitting votes. Some NY/NJ writers were torn between several Devils.

Shutouts are partly a product of team defense and it’s no surprise that that the shutout record was set and then reset (Hasek 6 in 02, Brodeur 7 in 03) in the lowest scoring era in decades.

Your issue seems to be that you value the last round (and shutouts) more than voters do.

 

[Saint Patty 33]

I’m not saying they were more valuable, but I could see them splitting votes. Some NY/NJ writers were torn between several Devils.

Shutouts are partly a product of team defense and it’s no surprise that that the shutout record was set and then reset (Hasek 6 in 02, Brodeur 7 in 03) in the lowest scoring era in decades.

Your issue seems to be that you value the last round (and shutouts) more than voters do.

Yes, having 3 shutouts in the Stanley Cup final should be a stronger factor in voting rather than 3 shutouts vs an offensively-starved team like Minnesota.

 

[Hockeyholic]

NBA and Baseball MVP is just who was best in the championship round. Not who was great leading up to that round. Baseball has the LCS MVP too (Which I think is dumb. Why is there an MVP for a 2nd round? But whatever).

Seems Hockey is more focused on the entire postseason.

I think that explains why Giguere won in 03. Otherwise, he doesn't win it at all. Brodeur or Niedermayer do.

 

[Victorias]

Yes, having 3 shutouts in the Stanley Cup final should be a stronger factor in voting rather than 3 shutouts vs an offensively-starved team like Minnesota.

The Ducks were just as bad offensively as the Wild. And the Devils were much better defensively than the Ducks.