Would you sign a petition to replace Ken Holland?

[PelagicJoe]

If he doesn't make any changes during the off season, then I will sign. He needs to go after Stamkos and Okposo hard. Move whoever we have to get the cap space. The only untouchables are Larkin and Mrazek.

 

[jkutswings]

Too me that's the beauty of it. He has a damn good group of young wingers, he has a center and he has a goalie... all without missing the playoffs. I would also agree you need a top 10ish pick. And when Z/Pav/Kronner truly move on this team will probably bottom out at that range for two years or so. You grab a couple d, pick up another center in free agency and your off to the races again. He has set this team up for what I believe will be a short fall from the graces.

This team should not need to do a Pittsburg/Chicago/Edmonton/Buffalo/Colarado/Toronto style rebuild to return to a competitive state.

I see a group of wingers that are decent, and/or unproven, but not a single one I'd call "damn good". Larkin is the only player on the entire roster I'd lock in as a keeper. I look forward to seeing what guys like Athanasiou and Mantha can do next year, and I sincerely hope that Mrazek starts to string more than flashes together, but otherwise, this entire roster is nothing special, and I'd be happy to package any amount of it to start landing some impact players.

 

[jkutswings]

Since 2009, the Wings are 25-34 in the playoffs. Three 2nd round and four 1st round appearances. Last 3 years have all been 1st round appearances with a record of 5-12. Five wins in the last three playoffs, 3 of those coming last year. Not great showings.

And how about this stat? The last 3 years, the Wings have scored 29 goals in 17 playoff games. That's 1.70 goals per game.

This. Roster. Can't. Score.

And if memory serves, 2 of those last 3 years had them as the very first team bounced from the playoffs.

But I'm sure that another year (or ten) will have Nyquist turn into Brett Hull and Marchenko turn into Bobby Orr.

 

[icKx]

At least we still have the monorail to sooth our disappointment, right? I haven't kept up with how that turned out.

The cosmic ballet goes on...

 

[Claypool]

Larkin is the only player on the entire roster I'd lock in as a keeper.

After one good season? Remember how awesome Nyquist was when rescued the Red Wings in 2013-14 in his first real season? Let's see how Larkin does now that he can't sneak up on the league anymore. Not saying he can't or won't but I'm keeping my expectations in check.

 

[A1Portable]

The emperor has no clothes.

How did the myth of Ken Holland occur?

It occurred before the salary cap, when Ilitch gave Holland an open checkbook to sign as many star free agents as he wanted.

Once the salary cap was implemented, Ken Holland was exposed for the mediocre GM he is.

Ken Holland does not know how to build a championship team in the salary cap era.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

The emperor has no clothes.

How did the myth of Ken Holland occur?

It occurred before the salary cap, when Ilitch gave Holland an open checkbook to sign as many star free agents as he wanted.

Once the salary cap was implemented, Ken Holland was exposed for the mediocre GM he is.

And pray tell, just who do you think built the 2008 Detroit Red Wings? You do realise the cap era didn't start in 2010??

 

[RabidBadger]

That's unfair, though. We don't have to be better GMs than Holland personally to hold him to a certain standard. I don't have to personally be a draft expert to want a GM who can actually draft some defensemen who'll pan out.

Besides, what's so insidious about Holland is that he always looks like he's got some reasonable mid-term plan, and then 5 years later you realize nothing really happened, no trades were made, and the team is just worse every year. Perception of Holland's genius aside, it might not actually be that difficult to beat his track record lately. Particularly if you aren't impressed with first round losses.

I don't think "fairness" equates into the discussion when you see the arguments leveled against Holland. It's unreal to expect to be a contender every year and every draft pick to pan out. As it is, the team has a fading core and a ascending group to build around. That's not the worst thing in the modern NHL.

I don't love everything he does; bad long term contracts, no impact D-men through the draft, etc. This IS the lowpoint of the franchise, in recent history, but there is still decent players to build on.

I'm incredulous about beating his recent track record. If fans had their way we'd have guys like Belesky and shelling out jillions to Big Buff (that contract will look baaaaad, soon). I remember people complaining how Anaheim signed Heatley for a measley 1 mil, and why didn't Kenny jump on that?

 

[jkutswings]

After one good season? Remember how awesome Nyquist was when rescued the Red Wings in 2013-14 in his first real season? Let's see how Larkin does now that he can't sneak up on the league anymore. Not saying he can't or won't but I'm keeping my expectations in check.

Oh, I'm not saying that I already know I'd NEVER trade Larkin. I'm just saying that he's the only player I wouldn't be willing to deal this summer. The kid does still have much to prove, but he's definitely shown enough to avoid being trade bait for the next six months.

 

[jkutswings]

I don't think "fairness" equates into the discussion when you see the arguments leveled against Holland. It's unreal to expect to be a contender every year and every draft pick to pan out. As it is, the team has a fading core and a ascending group to build around. That's not the worst thing in the modern NHL.

I don't love everything he does; bad long term contracts, no impact D-men through the draft, etc. This IS the lowpoint of the franchise, in recent history, but there is still decent players to build on.

I'm incredulous about beating his recent track record. If fans had their way we'd have guys like Belesky and shelling out jillions to Big Buff (that contract will look baaaaad, soon). I remember people complaining how Anaheim signed Heatley for a measley 1 mil, and why didn't Kenny jump on that?

My expectations for a GM in any professional sport are as follows:
1) Build a roster that has a multi-year window to contend for a championship
2) Squeeze the maximum you can out of that window, being brutally honest with yourself about when your opportunity is over
3) Realize when that window has ended
4) Sell / trade off your assets that are not part of your long-term plans while they still have some value
5) Tear it down to try again

Over the last two decades, Holland did a great job at #1 and #2, but had 2-3 years of being in denial over #3, which ended up ruining #4 and greatly hampering #5.

Now the "rebuild on the fly" will ultimately lead to a delayed full rebuild, with significantly fewer resources and a worse cap situation than if he would've cut bait when logic said so, but his optimism (or ego) held out.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I don't think "fairness" equates into the discussion when you see the arguments leveled against Holland. It's unreal to expect to be a contender every year and every draft pick to pan out. As it is, the team has a fading core and a ascending group to build around. That's not the worst thing in the modern NHL.

I don't love everything he does; bad long term contracts, no impact D-men through the draft, etc. This IS the lowpoint of the franchise, in recent history, but there is still decent players to build on.

I'm incredulous about beating his recent track record. If fans had their way we'd have guys like Belesky and shelling out jillions to Big Buff (that contract will look baaaaad, soon). I remember people complaining how Anaheim signed Heatley for a measley 1 mil, and why didn't Kenny jump on that?

Yeah instead of paying Belesky 3.9 million for five years, we get Gator at 4.25 for seven years and Ericsson for six years.

Wings really dodged a bullet there...

 

[RabidBadger]

[quotes ex=WingedWheel1987;117429569]Yeah instead of paying Belesky 3.9 million for five years, we get Gator at 4.25 for seven years and Ericsson for six years.

Wings really dodged a bullet there...[/QUOTE]

Yeah, too bad we didn't have Beleskey's 37 points to push us over the top.

In essence, yes they did. It would be another questionable contract on top the others.

 

[RabidBadger]

Yeah instead of paying Belesky 3.9 million for five years, we get Gator at 4.25 for seven years and Ericsson for six years.

Wings really dodged a bullet there...

Yeah, too bad we didn't have Beleskey's 37 points to push us over the top.

In essence, yes they did. It would be another questionable contract on top the others.

 

[jkutswings]

Yeah, too bad we didn't have Beleskey's 37 points to push us over the top.

In essence, yes they did. It would be another questionable contract on top the others.

Beleskey had a $3.96M cap hit and scored 37 points.
Abdelkader had a $4.2857M cap hit and scored 42 points.

That's 0.46 pts/gm for Beleskey, and 0.51 pts/gm for Abdelkader.

Or to normalize for salary, Boston paid Beleskey $107,027 for each point he scored.
Detroit paid Abdelkader $102,040.80 for each point he scored.

Now one can argue that Abdelkader brings more to the table than just scoring, and specifically is more physical than Beleskey (120 vs 65 PIM, respectively), but since the original debate was about points scored, I'd say that, with the early returns of one season, neither team appropriately evaluated talent with the contracts they handed out, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) is what WW1987 meant.

Oh yeah, and that Ericsson is a pylon.

 

[RabidBadger]

Beleskey had a $3.96M cap hit and scored 37 points.
Abdelkader had a $4.2857M cap hit and scored 42 points.

That's 0.46 pts/gm for Beleskey, and 0.51 pts/gm for Abdelkader.

Or to normalize for salary, Boston paid Beleskey $107,027 for each point he scored.
Detroit paid Abdelkader $102,040.80 for each point he scored.

Now one can argue that Abdelkader brings more to the table than just scoring, and specifically is more physical than Beleskey (120 vs 65 PIM, respectively), but since the original debate was about points scored, I'd say that, with the early returns of one season, neither team appropriately evaluated talent with the contracts they handed out, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) is what WW1987 meant.

Oh yeah, and that Ericsson is a pylon.

I get that. I didn't mention E and Abby by name but I did state above I don't like some of the contracts on the books. My point is, if Holland's lynch mob had their way we'd be hampered with worse than what we have currently.

 

[jkutswings]

I get that. I didn't mention E and Abby by name but I did state above I don't like some of the contracts on the books. My point is, if Holland's lynch mob had their way we'd be hampered with worse than what we have currently.

Perhaps worse in terms of talent, but I doubt you'd find a person on these boards that would want anything to do with how often Kenny has signed very long-term deals that included no-trade clauses. I'd MUCH sooner pay higher dollars per year, and be "hampered" by how many players I can squeeze under the cap, than give every guy I drafted once upon a time a golden parachute for 10 years with no chance to deal him away.

 

[A1Portable]

And pray tell, just who do you think built the 2008 Detroit Red Wings? You do realise the cap era didn't start in 2010??

The 2008 Wings had a roster of stars signed before the implementation of the salary cap in the 2005-06 season. Those contracts didn't just disappear once the salary cap was adopted. Those contracts expired years later. As those contracts expired, the salary cap prevented Holland from signing other star free agents to replace them. The net effect is what the Wings are now: a very mediocre team that is trending down.

 

[obey86]

The 2008 Wings had a roster of stars signed before the implementation of the salary cap in the 2005-06 season. Those contracts didn't just disappear once the salary cap was adopted. Those contracts expired years later. As those contracts expired, the salary cap prevented Holland from signing other star free agents to replace them. The net effect is what the Wings are now: a very mediocre team that is trending down.

Who were the stars on the 2008 roster that Holland acquired by signing prior to the 05-06 season?

 

[RabidBadger]

Perhaps worse in terms of talent, but I doubt you'd find a person on these boards that would want anything to do with how often Kenny has signed very long-term deals that included no-trade clauses. I'd MUCH sooner pay higher dollars per year, and be "hampered" by how many players I can squeeze under the cap, than give every guy I drafted once upon a time a golden parachute for 10 years with no chance to deal him away.

Did I happen to mention one of my criticisms is the contracts Holland has made? I sure did, see post 183. "Contracts" includes every nuance; length, dollars, terms, clauses....just to be clear(er).

Did I reiterate the point since it was assumed I applaude Kenny blindly? Sure enough. That was done in post 188. Why, I even hit the hat trick in post 190.

I'm not being disingenuous when I say I do not like some of the contracts he is responsible for. I do not need to be sold on a notion I already subscribe to, Mmmmmm-kay?

 

[Retire91]

It is, after all, entertainment. When we see a movie that stinks we warn others not to go. Lots of people write nasty reviews about it on the internet. And so on and so forth.

The movie also "owed us nothing" but when you invest into the entertainment, you can call out the parts you don't like. On that note, I think it was totally lame the new Star Wars reused so many themes from the old movies. Another Death Star? Come on.

LOL I bet there is a big correlation between disappointment in the wings by those disappointed in the star wars franchise.

 

[Retire91]

If he doesn't make any changes during the off season, then I will sign. He needs to go after Stamkos and Okposo hard. Move whoever we have to get the cap space. The only untouchables are Larkin and Mrazek.

Stamkos and Okposo do nothing to fix the D and can do nothing with this D.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Stamkos and Okposo do nothing to fix the D and can do nothing with this D.

While we were already missing a top 6 player, now we are missing two with the impending retirement of Datsyuk. We've been missing a top pairing defenseman, but with the regression of Kronwall, now we need two of those as well.

So, yano.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Unfortunately we're stuck with Holland for the next 2 years like it or not, And then he most likely steps down as General Manager and takes a higher post within the organization.

 

[Shaman464]

The 2008 Wings had a roster of stars signed before the implementation of the salary cap in the 2005-06 season. Those contracts didn't just disappear once the salary cap was adopted. Those contracts expired years later. As those contracts expired, the salary cap prevented Holland from signing other star free agents to replace them. The net effect is what the Wings are now: a very mediocre team that is trending down.

Actually the 08 team was made up of loyal stars and younger players on favorable deals. Z, Dats, Franzen, Kronwall, et al had not had their first UFA contract. Just like most other teams in the cap era: Youth and first couple contract players are rewarded. Signing older players to life time contracts with big cap hits are punished.

 

[SirloinUB]

I see a group of wingers that are decent, and/or unproven, but not a single one I'd call "damn good". Larkin is the only player on the entire roster I'd lock in as a keeper. I look forward to seeing what guys like Athanasiou and Mantha can do next year, and I sincerely hope that Mrazek starts to string more than flashes together, but otherwise, this entire roster is nothing special, and I'd be happy to package any amount of it to start landing some impact players.

Meh.. I feel like you are turning this into a debate of semantics. Nyquist scored 27+ in back to seasons. Tatar scored 29 and 20+, Mantha has all the potential in the world. Abdelkader has 21 and 19 in consecutive seasons while playing hard nosed hockey. AA looks like he can be a real player, Larkin scored 20+ as a teenager on the wing. Then we still have Svech looking up at the bigs.

Elite? no. Decent? Definitely. Damn good? sure.

Point is its a good collection of players who are prime aged (or younger) and have track records of scoring goals.