Would you Rather Win the Wrong Way, or Lose the Right Way?
- Thread starter leafsrock67
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A1LeafNation
Obsession beats talent everytime!!
- Oct 17, 2010
- 27,406
- 17,353
Id rather lose the right way instead of winning the wrong way and have players inflate thier contracts and cause the Leafs to build their team ass backwards.
You would think Leaf fans of all people would pick up on a correlation between winning the wrong way and mediocrity.
You would think Leaf fans of all people would pick up on a correlation between winning the wrong way and mediocrity.
There is more than one right way of winning. Make your own way.
This obsession with trying to play a puck possession game and outshoot the opponent every night is detrimental to their success, because it ultimately effects the offence more than the defence, which is the true problem.
I can't wait until a team with poor Corsi wins the Cup.
This obsession with trying to play a puck possession game and outshoot the opponent every night is detrimental to their success, because it ultimately effects the offence more than the defence, which is the true problem.
I can't wait until a team with poor Corsi wins the Cup.
johnny_rudeboy
Registered User
I voted "lose the right way" and with that I mean if we look at a team like Calgary in resent years who lacked the talent on the roster but still approached every game (of the one I saw) as one they could win. And they usually lost but not for lack of trying. If you create that kind of culture the high end guys you will eventually pick up since you are losing can quicker help turn around that team then had they allowed players to cherry pick, throw in the towel at the end of the season or not done everything human possible to try and improve them self even if that cherry picking for periods can give you the impression the team really is better then they actually are since they score goals.
Felstead
Boss Status
RoyalGremlin
The future is now.
- Jun 19, 2007
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8816 others
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Daisy Jane
everything is gonna be okay!
- Jul 2, 2009
- 70,212
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I don't care about wins and loses. I care about how we're winning, and how we're losing.
If we're winning and the way we're winning is unsustainable (no matter what you want to believe because some people firmly believe this is just about Corsi, to which i say, um. no. it is not). then you're ultimately going to be losing. You can win the wrong way - and you can win the right way.
You can also lose the wrong way too. and I think this is something that needs to be stressed.
My hope for the Leafs that eventually the team can become of those teams that you see them and you just hope that it's the 7th game in 11 nights' or something that that because that's the only chance you have. I want the team forechecking relentlessly, cycling the puck, able to close gaps within the netural zone. that if the puck is in the opposition zone, they are hounding the puck. that if a player not wearing a Leaf is in ht e corner, someone is there laying a hit, and digging out that puck.
they never give up in attitude or in determination and you know until the buzzer goes off, the Leafs have a chance to win
that winning is nice for them - but they loathe losing more.
that's what i want.
If we're winning and the way we're winning is unsustainable (no matter what you want to believe because some people firmly believe this is just about Corsi, to which i say, um. no. it is not). then you're ultimately going to be losing. You can win the wrong way - and you can win the right way.
You can also lose the wrong way too. and I think this is something that needs to be stressed.
My hope for the Leafs that eventually the team can become of those teams that you see them and you just hope that it's the 7th game in 11 nights' or something that that because that's the only chance you have. I want the team forechecking relentlessly, cycling the puck, able to close gaps within the netural zone. that if the puck is in the opposition zone, they are hounding the puck. that if a player not wearing a Leaf is in ht e corner, someone is there laying a hit, and digging out that puck.
they never give up in attitude or in determination and you know until the buzzer goes off, the Leafs have a chance to win
that winning is nice for them - but they loathe losing more.
that's what i want.
Joey24
Registered User
I think it comes down to whats best for the team, and I think everyone knows that a total rebuild is defiantly needed. The right thing to do would be to maxamize the value of the core players we have now.
Finding out what the market is for a guy like Dion, There will be teams out there willing to pony up for his services it just depends on what they are willing to pony up to land him.
Phil is or should fetch a kings ransomed. Realistically players like Kessel don't usually get moved especially when they just signed long term deals and are still so young. There will be a lot of teams lining up for this guys services but like with Dion, first round picks are nice if like Boston you get a 2nd overall pick and a 5th or where ever they selected Hamilton.
There is no way Toronto should be looking to trade Phil for mid to late firsts unless the rest of the package looks amazing. This team could pretty much speed up their rebuild process by about 3-4 years if they play their cards right in the Dion and Kessel trades if they were to happen, And I think they should defiantly look at making it happen.
Finding out what the market is for a guy like Dion, There will be teams out there willing to pony up for his services it just depends on what they are willing to pony up to land him.
Phil is or should fetch a kings ransomed. Realistically players like Kessel don't usually get moved especially when they just signed long term deals and are still so young. There will be a lot of teams lining up for this guys services but like with Dion, first round picks are nice if like Boston you get a 2nd overall pick and a 5th or where ever they selected Hamilton.
There is no way Toronto should be looking to trade Phil for mid to late firsts unless the rest of the package looks amazing. This team could pretty much speed up their rebuild process by about 3-4 years if they play their cards right in the Dion and Kessel trades if they were to happen, And I think they should defiantly look at making it happen.
Duffman955
Registered User
- Mar 4, 2010
- 14,633
- 3,981
from this very point on, ANY win hurts us. Now, it's all about the losses and how many we can wrap up by the end of the season.
Why would you want to win?
I don't want to lose but long-term it's better to take a few knocks learning to do things the right way than to get cheap wins now and never do better than .500 hockey.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 70,803
- 21,006
At this point it does not matter. But from a point of view that most people viewed it was a style and coaching problem for why the Leafs have failed to make the playoffs for the uptenth time now.
It's enlightening to some to know what I have said all along. The problem is the players, not the system, corsi, or coaching. You can't win with flawed players.
It's enlightening to some to know what I have said all along. The problem is the players, not the system, corsi, or coaching. You can't win with flawed players.
The conversation on what is "the right way" and "the wrong way" has completely flown over your head here.
GF/GA is completely irrelevant. GD (Goal Differential) matters, but more than that are "possession" metrics, like Corsi and Fenwick. These stats measure shots for/shots attempted/blocked shots (in the case of Fenwick) for and against, as a measure of how much time during the game your team has the puck and is shooting it (possession).
"The Right Way" hockey means controlling the puck more than the opponent and thereby ensuring more scoring opportunities, which in turn lead to more goals and thereon to more wins.
"The Wrong Way" hockey is about taking risks like having a forward cheat on zone exits to try and get more breakaways, or slowly coming back on the backcheck hoping the other teammates will cause a turnover and then the "coaster" can get a breakaway.
Another example of bad hockey is "turtling" where the team collapses down-low and blocks shots out the wazoo, hoping to limit shots against to perimeter opportunities that have low scoring potential. Again, this system just hasn't proven itself to be terribly effective, because teams are too good at moving the puck laterally and finding openings.
This reckless, risk-laden hockey has proven time-and-time again that it isn't successful long-term. Teams quickly adapt and bury those systems.
That's why just because a team like the NYI might score a lot and get scored against a lot, it's not really relevant in terms of good or bad hockey. What matters is that they have good possession metrics in the process of getting wins, which shows that they're playing a sustainable hockey system because over a long period of time, their good possession stats should lead to more goals for and more wins, and that's exactly what it is doing (Hazzah, the system works!).
So in conclusion, the Leafs losing right now playing the right way is simply part of the process of developing the right habits and familiarity with playing a good system of hockey. Once players are more familiar with it, they'll start converting the greater shots for to goals, and those goals to wins.
(Just, at this point, it's probably not going to be in time for playoffs.)
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 70,803
- 21,006
if you consistently WIN by luck or favourable officiating, then it's going to catch up with you. A team neads to win by playing well, not by getting lucky.
Why can't they play a hybrid of both systems.
Hornachek has turned the Leafs into the Predators defensive hockey style which worked for them cause they had a great goalie, Suter, Weber and guys suited to play that style.
The biggest issue was the breakout and how they were rimming it around the boards but the winger was already gone trying for a stretch pass. Since the new system they have now used the middle of the ice to get a short quick pass to the centre who then can move it out to either wing plus skate it out.
Why can't they still do the game thing but once the C gets the puck one winger usually the opposite side flies out and then the C has the option to skate to his vacated side as he pulled the D out with him or pass it to the closer winger and he skates it out and play give an go with the C. The odd time you can hit that stretch pass to get a quick strike or odd man rushes.
Things are too slow coming out of the zone adn we are not relying on team speed which we use to beat teams down with.
So if the zone D is cleaned up with the simple short pass to C then that should allow our guys to fly and get odd man rushes.
Hornachek has turned the Leafs into the Predators defensive hockey style which worked for them cause they had a great goalie, Suter, Weber and guys suited to play that style.
The biggest issue was the breakout and how they were rimming it around the boards but the winger was already gone trying for a stretch pass. Since the new system they have now used the middle of the ice to get a short quick pass to the centre who then can move it out to either wing plus skate it out.
Why can't they still do the game thing but once the C gets the puck one winger usually the opposite side flies out and then the C has the option to skate to his vacated side as he pulled the D out with him or pass it to the closer winger and he skates it out and play give an go with the C. The odd time you can hit that stretch pass to get a quick strike or odd man rushes.
Things are too slow coming out of the zone adn we are not relying on team speed which we use to beat teams down with.
So if the zone D is cleaned up with the simple short pass to C then that should allow our guys to fly and get odd man rushes.
Suntouchable13
Registered User
I'd be fine with winning the wrong way as long as you have competent management. It's clear that that one playoff appearance 2 years pulled the wool over Nonis' eyes. A competent GM does not let wool pulled over his eyes.
The fact that this poll is neck and neck is a great illustration that anybody can have an opinion that is completely worthless.
Losing the right way means that if you keep playing "the right way" you will eventually win and consistently beat other teams winning "the wrong way".
Mess summed it up - see above.
Losing the right way means that if you keep playing "the right way" you will eventually win and consistently beat other teams winning "the wrong way".
Mess summed it up - see above.
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