Would the NHL Have Higher Quality Players with a Soccer or Baseball-style Minor League system?

[Tables of Stats]

I'm sure this has been discussed before so pardon me if this is old hat but I was thinking about the role of coaches in a young player's development and couldn't help but wonder how many potential players are wasted by poor coaching at the CHL level. That thought lead me to wonder how much impact there would be drafting players at 15 instead of 18 would have on player development. That thought makes it obvious that a team drafting players that young would then want to have a CHL or USHL affiliate and integrate that into their player development program.

The questions are; What would this cost? How much of an advantage it could give? What is the gap between a team willing to spend on such a program and one that does the bare minimum?

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[thewookie1]

I'm sure this has been discussed before so pardon me if this is old hat but I was thinking about the role of coaches in a young player's development and couldn't help but wonder how many potential players are wasted by poor coaching at the CHL level. That thought lead me to wonder how much impact there would be drafting players at 15 instead of 18 would have on player development. That thought makes it obvious that a team drafting players that young would then want to have a CHL or USHL affiliate and integrate that into their player development program.

The questions are; What would this cost? How much of an advantage it could give? What is the gap between a team willing to spend on such a program and one that does the bare minimum?

The baseball system would be only a slight change to most present systems but with longer build up times. The Sabres, for example, have an AHL team in Rochester and a ECHL team in Cincinnati. Rochester calls up players just like Buffalo would from the league below. A baseball system would mean the CHL would become an NHL subsidiary and the franchises would be co-oped into existing franchise systems. You would end up with a real mess of teams with varying numbers of minor affiliation. The biggest negative would be the sheer cliff that would occur for many CHL teams being either crammed with the ECHL for a wider scope or fractured to better space out the teams to their NHL father-figure. Plus how competitive any of the Junior teams would be is completely dependent on their NHL overlord’s willingness to spend. There would actually be a good chance of players being lost in the shuffle amongst the many minor affiliates.

The soccer system couldn’t work due to it requiring a fundamentally different approach to player progression and league organization. So rather or not it would be more effective is practically a mute point regardless

 

[ottawa]

Damn, and here I was thinking increasing the drafting age to 19 would be a good idea and you're talking about decreasing it to 15 lol

 

[Siludin]

It would benefit young star players who would typically play in the CHL by getting them into a pro system and getting them paid (presumably?) MUCH earlier. The current CHL system is a massive gift for young talented players.

I don't know if it would benefit American players who are looking to go to college for a bit before turning pro, because they would be pressured to decide on hockey much earlier and many great players seeking the college experience would likely abandon their pro aspirations earlier. The NCAA could also change their rules to allow formerly-pro affiliated players below a certain age or something, though.

 

[DieSendungmitderMaus]

I scoff at the idea of soccer having a minor league system. I suppose you mean that prospects are in the clubs from a younger age than 18 though.
I do think that could lead to better development because nhl teams would have an interest in developing a player for some real formative years, but in the end I don't think there's that much of an edge to have and even if there was, the lower revenue teams wouldn't want the richer ones to invest, which would force them to spend money as well to keep up. Its just easier for the nhl to have the CHL and college develop their prospects for free. It's not like the NHL cares about whether the level of play could improve slightly, they've got a monopoly anyway

 

[thestonedkoala]

The only thing I know is that I want the AHL/ECHL to adopt more minor league baseball team names;

Chihuahuas, Isotopes, Jumbo Shrimp, River Cats, RailRiders, Skeeters, Mud Hens are awesome Triple A names

And then RubberDucks, Sod Poodles, Rumble Ponies, SeaWolves, Yard Goats, RockHounds, Fisher Cats, Sea Dogs, Flying Squirrels, Trash Pandas are awesome Double A names.

COME ON HOCKEY! GET CREATIVE WITH YOUR NAMES

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Hold on. I don't know anything about Baseball but they draft 15 years old players?

 

[orby]

The only thing I know is that I want the AHL/ECHL to adopt more minor league baseball team names;

Chihuahuas, Isotopes, Jumbo Shrimp, River Cats, RailRiders, Skeeters, Mud Hens are awesome Triple A names

And then RubberDucks, Sod Poodles, Rumble Ponies, SeaWolves, Yard Goats, RockHounds, Fisher Cats, Sea Dogs, Flying Squirrels, Trash Pandas are awesome Double A names.

COME ON HOCKEY! GET CREATIVE WITH YOUR NAMES

To be fair, the ECHL has the Solar Bears, Everblades, Swamp Rabbits, Ice Dogs, and Ghost Pirates...

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Hold on. I don't know anything about Baseball but they draft 15 years old players?

I also don't know about baseball, but don't soccer clubs in Europe basically develop their players from very young ages? Like 12-13 years old. Obviously there's no draft.

 

[Cas]

Hold on. I don't know anything about Baseball but they draft 15 years old players?

MLB only drafts high school seniors, university juniors or seniors, and junior college players of any age, from the US (including Puerto Rico) and Canada.

International players (which essentially means players from the Caribbean) are not eligible for the draft but can be signed at 16. Teams have a limited amount of money allowed for signing such players.

Players from Japan, South Korea, Cuba, or other major international leagues usually fall under other different sets of rules - MLB came to agreements with those leagues to prevent their being decimated by MLB, while still allowing players to come over to the US after some time. I think the Mexican League falls under the standard international amateur rules, but I'm not sure.

Basically, no, MLB does not draft 15 year olds, but they do sign 16 year olds from certain countries, subject to certain limits.

 

[HTFN]

To be fair, the ECHL has the Solar Bears, Everblades, Swamp Rabbits, Ice Dogs, and Ghost Pirates...

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I also don't know about baseball, but don't soccer clubs in Europe basically develop their players from very young ages? Like 12-13 years old. Obviously there's no draft.

Soccer is far west. Usually young players are initially local players groomed under the academy from 5 to 16 years old. From 17 to 23 they have under u23 and u18 teams so they can get kind of pro experience but the top talents can also play for the first team or get loaned for first team experience in other league. There are no draft though and smaller team academies have to go through a lot of pain to retain their top young talent from the very best academies.

It's all about money and opportunity. That's why academy of Barcelona/Man City/Chelsea/PSG/Real Madrid and Man United are usually loaded with top prospects but very few can make it through the ranks.

It's not rare to see top prospects sign abroad at a very young age to sign at the very best academies.

The recuitment for the academy is very random. It's not rare to see a young no name standout at a local minor team and get a try out at the pro team academy.

I forgot to mention they can only sign pro contract at the age of 18 years old under that age it's limited to 3 years.

A good example of that is Jadon Sancho. He grew up in London and was invited to join the Watford academy as a 7 years old as a standout local player. At the age of 14 he was scouted and lured by Manchester City to join their academy.

From 14 years to 17 years old he was developed at the Man City academy and became a house hold talent but without a chance to play first football team so he moved abroad to Dortmund which guarenteed him first team football and were he established himself as a star player until being purchased last summer by Manchester United (for 85M euros) as their main recruit as a 21 years old.

 

[doublechili]

That thought lead me to wonder how much impact there would be drafting players at 15 instead of 18 would have on player development.

IMO it's better to keep players that young out of the pro clubs' hands. The NHL would have to develop a huge system of junior/minor hockey if they were to take control of their players. And the 18 year old draft is enough of a crapshoot as it is with players still physically developing. Drafting 15 year old kids would be that much worse. Undrafted 15 year olds could be some of the best players by the time they're 20. So there would have to be a multi-level junior system with ability for kids to move up and down as they develop or as their development slows/stalls.

 

[member 305909]

It would be fun if there was a lower league subordinate to the NHL that you could relegate to or get promoted from.

Often the relegation-battles are more entertaining than the championship ones.

 

[LongWayDown37]

The only thing I know is that I want the AHL/ECHL to adopt more minor league baseball team names;

Chihuahuas, Isotopes, Jumbo Shrimp, River Cats, RailRiders, Skeeters, Mud Hens are awesome Triple A names

And then RubberDucks, Sod Poodles, Rumble Ponies, SeaWolves, Yard Goats, RockHounds, Fisher Cats, Sea Dogs, Flying Squirrels, Trash Pandas are awesome Double A names.

COME ON HOCKEY! GET CREATIVE WITH YOUR NAMES

The Albuquerque Isotopes have always been a favorite of mine.

 

[barilko05]

Prior to the draft, the NHL worked similarly to soccer. NHL scouts identified prospects at a very young age and then put them with junior teams they owned or controlled. That's how Bobby Orr ended up with Boston. He was essentially their property from about 13 or 14. Also Montreal had first crack at French Canadian prospects. I like the draft much better.

 

[robertmac43]

I don't think the Soccer system really belongs in this conversation. Players are coming through the youth academies from far younger ages than even 15 in some cases.

It's also far more localized. The Leafs for instance would have their youth system in Toronto and pull from the younger players in the area, maybe bring a few in from a far. Essentially it would get rid of the draft and put a ton more emphasis on scouting young players and developing them internally. Which is kind of what the OP is saying but it's less of a minor league and more of a open youth system.

 

[Number 57]

Soccer is far west. Usually young players are initially local players groomed under the academy from 5 to 16 years old. From 17 to 23 they have under u23 and u18 teams so they can get kind of pro experience but the top talents can also play for the first team or get loaned for first team experience in other league. There are no draft though and smaller team academies have to go through a lot of pain to retain their top young talent from the very best academies.

It's all about money and opportunity. That's why academy of Barcelona/Man City/Chelsea/PSG/Real Madrid and Man United are usually loaded with top prospects but very few can make it through the ranks.

It's not rare to see top prospects sign abroad at a very young age to sign at the very best academies.

The recuitment for the academy is very random. It's not rare to see a young no name standout at a local minor team and get a try out at the pro team academy.

I forgot to mention they can only sign pro contract at the age of 18 years old under that age it's limited to 3 years.

A good example of that is Jadon Sancho. He grew up in London and was invited to join the Watford academy as a 7 years old as a standout local player. At the age of 14 he was scouted and lured by Manchester City to join their academy.

From 14 years to 17 years old he was developed at the Man City academy and became a house hold talent but without a chance to play first football team so he moved abroad to Dortmund which guarenteed him first team football and were he established himself as a star player until being purchased last summer by Manchester United (for 85M euros) as their main recruit as a 21 years old.

This would be great for the NHL imo, have the NHL teams' academies develop their own players from age 9-17 instead of having a draft.

Have all the NHL's academies play each other as affiliates AHL/ECHL-style in various U13, U14, U15, etc. leagues. You could combine the European football way + baseball's oversized minor-league system by having it this way.

As you've described, young players could still move from one academy to another for a better opportunity or even stay in Europe to further develop before coming to NA. They could only sign pro contracts at 18. This would force NHL teams to have quality academies and thus, offer quality development environments for kids.

 

[Flukeshot]

I would view the Soccer system to be academy driven, which means no draft.

Baseball actually took a step towards the NHL system by streamlining their minors. Shedding dozens of teams.

The fact that North American hockey cannot even support a steady 3 tier pro system (1 to 1 to 1 NHL, AHL, ECHL) suggests that any changes to either a more soccer or baseball system would come solely at the expense of the NHL teams with no financial benefits.

The NHL has a 50 contract limit right now. They couldn't even ice 3 teams. That of course could be changed. I wonder how many players teams would sign if there was no limit. They wouldn't count against the cap but they do eat into profit.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

They'd be vastly better served by moving to NFL style draft eligibility.

 

[Jumptheshark]

They sort of do with baseball

JR = single a
Echl= double A
Ahl= triple A

Is that what the OP means

 

[WarriorofTime]

Baseball has such a heavily tiered minor league system due to how long development take. You don’t see teenagers in the mlb, only a handful of guys under 23 each year.

 

[BlueBull]

Damn, and here I was thinking increasing the drafting age to 19 would be a good idea and you're talking about decreasing it to 15 lol

The problem with increasing the Age in the NHL Draft is that there would be a draft year in the transistion where you would be forced to draft players that went undrafted in the previous season. The talent pool that year might be incredibly dissapointing.

I don't think Increasing the minimum age to 19 would be a good idea, but I think that, say, increasing the Maximum Age to 22 for College Athletes would be a good idea.

 

[Space umpire]

Prior to the draft, the NHL worked similarly to soccer. NHL scouts identified prospects at a very young age and then put them with junior teams they owned or controlled. That's how Bobby Orr ended up with Boston. He was essentially their property from about 13 or 14. Also Montreal had first crack at French Canadian prospects. I like the draft much better.

Montreal, Toronto and Detroit were permitted to choose 2 14 year olds each year from Quebec, Ontario and western Canada respectively. Orr was a big miss. Another noted “miss” was Bobby Hull.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

I actually think that the way the NHL does prospect development and the Draft is perfect.