Worst Ever Playoff Performer Relative to Talent...

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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If you're strictly adhering to the narrow scope of the thread title, a lot of names mentioned so far don't make sense. I believe what the other user was getting at, and what I was agreeing with, is that Iginla seemed to have the reputation of some sort of great playoff warrior and leader, when in reality his play was actually mildly disappointing in the playoffs outside of one specific year.

Well... With regards, if a bunch of people suddenly and spontaneously decide to claim that Thomas Greiss is the best NHL goaltender at the moment, that wouldn't make him the most underachieving NHL netminder. That would just mean that some people shouldn't be taken seriously.

Exageration of course, but you get the point.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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One thing that stands out about Iginla is how significantly his scoring impacted his team's results.

In the playoffs, when he was scoreless, his teams went 8-25 (24%). When he scored at least 1 point, his teams went 32-16 (67%).

It`s even more dramatic if you exclude his two late-career playoffs in a Penguins and Bruins uniform. The Flames were just 3-17 (15%) when Iginla was scoreless, but went 22-12 (65%) when he scored 1+ point.

That doesn`t necessarily mean he`s a great playoff performer, but in terms of importance to his team, he`d have to rank very high on the all-time list.
 
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IComeInPeace

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Jun 16, 2009
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Tony Tanti, a pretty good goal scorer in his Canuck days, scored exactly 1 goal in his 18 playoff games with Vancouver, and 3 goals total in 30 playoff games.

A lot of guys mentioned will be guys that played on 1-line teams.
Those teams/lines/players were easy to shut down in the playoffs where the refs used to put the whistle away because of the 'let 'em play' mentality that seems like was far more pervasive in playoff hockey in the past.
 

Milos Krasic

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Alexei Zhamnov would be here if not for his 2004 postseason with the Flyers. He had 14 points there, otherwise you're looking at a 700+ point scorer with 2 goals and 5 playoff points, but I guess it's hard to be a bad playoff performer when you're never in the playoffs.
 

EpochLink

Canucks and Jets fan
Aug 1, 2006
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Take away 2004, Iginla's production in the playoffs have been 'alright'..

Unfortunately for Iginla's, he's been to the postseason twice since 2009.
 

Big Phil

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I am not saying Valeri Bure was a sniper of the level of his brother or anything but the guy had 22 playoff games, 0 goals and 7 points. Yikes.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Someone brought this up in the ATD chat thread, but posting this here for more visibility.

I really struggle in evaluating Bathgate's playoff career. I'm not sure if there's any other Top 100 player who has such an ambiguous record.

The Rangers were terrible during Bathgate's decade on Broadway. They wasted his prime. They only qualified for the playoffs four times during Bathgate's tenure. Three of those matchups were against vastly superior teams (Montreal twice - who finished 26 and 16 points ahead; and the Leafs once - who finished 21 points ahead). That meant the Rangers were huge underdogs. It's reasonable to assume that the Habs/Leafs spent most of their effort trying to contain Bathgate, who was by far New York's best player. It looks like it worked - he was held to just 8 points in 16 games during those three series. How much of that is due to Bathgate being inherently a poor playoff performer, and how much is due to him being the sole star, in very lopsided series? (Not that this is a welcome comparison, but it sounds like a Marcel Dionne situation).

One thing that helps Bathgate's cause - he was very good against Boston in 1958. He scored 5 goals and 8 points in six games (really good for the late 1950's). Yes, the Rangers lost, but it's hard to blame Bathgate when the Rangers allowed 14(!) goals over the final two games. That suggests that, in a closer matchup, Bathgate could have been a strong playoff performer. (Keep in mind how imbalanced the Original Six era was).

It's also hard to evaluate his 1964 playoffs. He had just been traded to the Leafs at the trade deadline. He was still near his peak offensively - he led the league in assists, and was 4th in points. Just by going through the box scores, he looked almost invisible against the much stronger Habs (only 4 points in 7 games, and tied for the worst plus/minus on the team). But he looked good in the SC Finals (primary assist on the tying goal in game 2, forcing OT with less than a minute left; scoring the go-ahead goal which stood as the game winner with 9 minutes left in game 4; getting the primary assist on a big goal with five minutes remaining in game 5; and opening the scoring with an unassisted goal in game 7). I've just looked at the box scores, but it appears that he was quite good in his first trip to the Stanley Cup finals.

The next spring, he was invisible. 1 point in 6 games with the worst plus/minus on the team. But (due to age, injury and/or trouble integrating with the Leafs), he was no longer in his prime (scoring just 45 points in 55 games - his worst total in a decade).

He made the playoffs one final time in 1966. On paper, it looks like a good series for Bathgate - five points (all goals) in six games against a good Chicago team. But he got most of his points in blowouts. Bathgate scored the 4th and 6th goals in a 7-0 route; he also scored in a 5-1 win. He was held to one point in the three one-goal games. Then in the SC Finals he had a solid start, but was held to one absolutely meaningless point in the final four games.

I still don't know how to evaluate Bathgate as a playoff performer. I can only describe his track record as "inconsistent" and "incomplete". Maybe like Paul Kariya?
 
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overpass

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Jun 7, 2007
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Someone brought this up in the ATD chat thread, but posting this here for more visibility.

I really struggle in evaluating Bathgate's playoff career. I'm not sure if there's any other Top 100 player who has such an ambiguous record.

The Rangers were terrible during Bathgate's decade on Broadway. They wasted his prime. They only qualified for the playoffs four times during Bathgate's tenure. Three of those matchups were against vastly superior teams (Montreal twice - who finished 26 and 16 points ahead; and the Leafs once - who finished 21 points ahead). That meant the Rangers were huge underdogs. It's reasonable to assume that the Habs/Leafs spent most of their effort trying to contain Bathgate, who was by far New York's best player. It looks like it worked - he was held to just 8 points in 16 games during those three series. How much of that is due to Bathgate being inherently a poor playoff performer, and how much is due to him being the sole star, in very lopsided series? (Not that this is a welcome comparison, but it sounds like a Marcel Dionne situation).

One thing that helps Bathgate's cause - he was very good against Boston in 1958. He scored 5 goals and 8 points in six games (really good for the late 1950's). Yes, the Rangers lost, but it's hard to blame Bathgate when the Rangers allowed 14(!) goals over the final two games. That suggests that, in a closer matchup, Bathgate could have been a strong playoff performer. (Keep in mind how imbalanced the Original Six era was).

It's also hard to evaluate his 1964 playoffs. He had just been traded to the Leafs at the trade deadline. He was still near his peak offensively - he led the league in assists, and was 4th in points. Just by going through the box scores, he looked almost invisible against the much stronger Habs (only 4 points in 7 games, and tied for the worst plus/minus on the team). But he looked good in the SC Finals (primary assist on the tying goal in game 2, forcing OT with less than a minute left; scoring the go-ahead goal which stood as the game winner with 9 minutes left in game 4; getting the primary assist on a big goal with five minutes remaining in game 5; and opening the scoring with an unassisted goal in game 7). I've just looked at the box scores, but it appears that he was quite good in his first trip to the Stanley Cup finals.

The next spring, he was invisible. 1 point in 6 games with the worst plus/minus on the team. But (due to age, injury and/or trouble integrating with the Leafs), he was no longer in his prime (scoring just 45 points in 55 games - his worst total in a decade).

He made the playoffs one final time in 1966. On paper, it looks like a good series for Bathgate - five points (all goals) in six games against a good Chicago team. But he got most of his points in blowouts. Bathgate scored the 4th and 6th goals in a 7-0 route; he also scored in a 5-1 win. He was held to one point in the three one-goal games. Then in the SC Finals he had a solid start, but was held to one absolutely meaningless point in the final four games.

I still don't know how to evaluate Bathgate as a playoff performer. I can only describe his track record as "inconsistent" and "incomplete". Maybe like Paul Kariya?

What makes it even harder to evaluate Bathgate's playoffs is that the Rangers ownership valued playoff success so little that they prioritized the circus at MSG over Ranger playoff games. So the Rangers literally played extra road games.

And there's never really been a playoff opponent like the 50s Habs. In the two series that Bathgate lost to them, in which he scored 5 points in 10 games, the Rangers used him as a checking centre in half the games, matching up against Jean Beliveau or Henri Richard. They were trying to piece together two lines that could check the Olmstead-Beliveau-Geoffrion line and the Moore-Richard-Richard line, and try to win a low scoring game. Of course they didn't come close to winning either series, but they did manage to win two games out of ten, par for the course against a team that was 40-9 in those five playoff runs.
 

Boxscore

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Sundin had 82 points in 91 playoff games and was a +2 in the playoffs in his career.
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't consider Sundin a "poor playoff performer." For most of his Leaf tenure, he was the lone horse that other teams focused on containing... and he did it all. He didn't have the luxury of having a Messier, Francis, Forsberg, Fedorov, Malkin, etc. to support him up the middle the way guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Yzerman, and Crosby had... for example.

Once the playoff wars begin, it's extremely hard to be the top center on a team that is comparably thin up the middle.

Tbh, I'd take playoff Mats over playoff Matthews 10x out of 10 so far.
 

Hobnobs

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Nov 29, 2011
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What makes it even harder to evaluate Bathgate's playoffs is that the Rangers ownership valued playoff success so little that they prioritized the circus at MSG over Ranger playoff games. So the Rangers literally played extra road games.

And there's never really been a playoff opponent like the 50s Habs. In the two series that Bathgate lost to them, in which he scored 5 points in 10 games, the Rangers used him as a checking centre in half the games, matching up against Jean Beliveau or Henri Richard. They were trying to piece together two lines that could check the Olmstead-Beliveau-Geoffrion line and the Moore-Richard-Richard line, and try to win a low scoring game. Of course they didn't come close to winning either series, but they did manage to win two games out of ten, par for the course against a team that was 40-9 in those five playoff runs.

Well... Not just the Rags ownership. Adams (Wings owner) had a stake in MSG. Everything wasn't exactly kosher in the league back then.

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't consider Sundin a "poor playoff performer." For most of his Leaf tenure, he was the lone horse that other teams focused on containing... and he did it all. He didn't have the luxury of having a Messier, Francis, Forsberg, Fedorov, Malkin, etc. to support him up the middle the way guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Sakic, Yzerman, and Crosby had... for example.

Once the playoff wars begin, it's extremely hard to be the top center on a team that is comparably thin up the middle.

Tbh, I'd take playoff Mats over playoff Matthews 10x out of 10 so far.

Mats gets the normal jist. There is one negative story to tell from the leafs years (the one where he came back from injury and leafs was eliminated) and suddenly Sundin is a playoff choker. Just like Murphy was a terrible defenseman etc etc etc.
 
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Gorskyontario

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Feb 18, 2024
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Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Alex Yashin, Tyler Seguin, Todd Bertuzzi, Keith Tkachuk for stars.
Vanek and Reichel for middle tier players. Just off the top of my head.

Not going to rank guys who were marginal players(ie Valeri Bure)

Anyone mentioning Dionne, Hawerchuk, Iginla is completely out to lunch. None of those guys had any type of supporting cast their entire careers. Not hard to stop a 1 line team. Sundin wasn't a playoff warrior, but he wasn't the reason the leafs didn't win. He had some good linemates, better then leafs fans make belief, but they generally didn't have secondary scoring beyond Sundin/Thomas/Roberts/Mogilny.

Keith Primeau, Owen Nolan simply weren't good enough to carry a team on their back. Listing them here is out of place. Primeau was a big 50-60 point center for most of his career with a few odd peak years. Do people expect 50 point players to put up 20 points every postseason?
 

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,182
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Someone brought this up in the ATD chat thread, but posting this here for more visibility.

I really struggle in evaluating Bathgate's playoff career. I'm not sure if there's any other Top 100 player who has such an ambiguous record.

The Rangers were terrible during Bathgate's decade on Broadway. They wasted his prime. They only qualified for the playoffs four times during Bathgate's tenure. Three of those matchups were against vastly superior teams (Montreal twice - who finished 26 and 16 points ahead; and the Leafs once - who finished 21 points ahead). That meant the Rangers were huge underdogs. It's reasonable to assume that the Habs/Leafs spent most of their effort trying to contain Bathgate, who was by far New York's best player. It looks like it worked - he was held to just 8 points in 16 games during those three series. How much of that is due to Bathgate being inherently a poor playoff performer, and how much is due to him being the sole star, in very lopsided series? (Not that this is a welcome comparison, but it sounds like a Marcel Dionne situation).

One thing that helps Bathgate's cause - he was very good against Boston in 1958. He scored 5 goals and 8 points in six games (really good for the late 1950's). Yes, the Rangers lost, but it's hard to blame Bathgate when the Rangers allowed 14(!) goals over the final two games. That suggests that, in a closer matchup, Bathgate could have been a strong playoff performer. (Keep in mind how imbalanced the Original Six era was).

It's also hard to evaluate his 1964 playoffs. He had just been traded to the Leafs at the trade deadline. He was still near his peak offensively - he led the league in assists, and was 4th in points. Just by going through the box scores, he looked almost invisible against the much stronger Habs (only 4 points in 7 games, and tied for the worst plus/minus on the team). But he looked good in the SC Finals (primary assist on the tying goal in game 2, forcing OT with less than a minute left; scoring the go-ahead goal which stood as the game winner with 9 minutes left in game 4; getting the primary assist on a big goal with five minutes remaining in game 5; and opening the scoring with an unassisted goal in game 7). I've just looked at the box scores, but it appears that he was quite good in his first trip to the Stanley Cup finals.

The next spring, he was invisible. 1 point in 6 games with the worst plus/minus on the team. But (due to age, injury and/or trouble integrating with the Leafs), he was no longer in his prime (scoring just 45 points in 55 games - his worst total in a decade).

He made the playoffs one final time in 1966. On paper, it looks like a good series for Bathgate - five points (all goals) in six games against a good Chicago team. But he got most of his points in blowouts. Bathgate scored the 4th and 6th goals in a 7-0 route; he also scored in a 5-1 win. He was held to one point in the three one-goal games. Then in the SC Finals he had a solid start, but was held to one absolutely meaningless point in the final four games.

I still don't know how to evaluate Bathgate as a playoff performer. I can only describe his track record as "inconsistent" and "incomplete". Maybe like Paul Kariya?

The Rangers PP usage might have an impact here.

Were they loading up Bathgate with PP minutes? Or were they rolling three lines with a preference for Bathgate?

Same thing applies to Toronto in 1964. Bathgate is splitting time with George Armstrong at the very least, isn't he?
 

Hobnobs

Pinko
Nov 29, 2011
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This is obscene.

Bathgate has multiple great, all-time great, playoff performances.

No, he does not. He has one or two good performances. I wouldn't name him in a worst thread though but he's not a great playoff performer.

Mike Gartners mediocre playoff track record is better than Bathgates.
 
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Gorskyontario

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Feb 18, 2024
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Mike Gartners mediocre playoff track record is better than Bathgates.

Mike Gartner was a dependable goal scorer but not a superstar. Please outside of 2-3 post seasons how many playoffs did he not live up to expectations?


I would love to hear the rationalization for expecting a below PPG player(on average during his career) to magically score PPG+ every single postseason?
 

Hobnobs

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Nov 29, 2011
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Mike Gartner was a dependable goal scorer but not a superstar. Please outside of 2-3 post seasons how many playoffs did he not live up to expectations?


I would love to hear the rationalization for expecting a below PPG player(on average during his career) to magically score PPG+ every single postseason?

And he still have a better track record than Bathgates couple of good performances.
 

Caps8112

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was about to say something about Ovi being mentioned but then saw it was addressed and also that the beginning posts were from 7ish years ago.

this is probably a small sample size and you could argue his team wasnt great but Pavel Bure having 58 reg season goals and 1 in the first round loss to the devils has to be up there. He got unlucky drawing the defense first devils but thats a lot of goals in the reg season to go ghost in the playoffs.
 

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