Worse signature move, Hextall / JR:

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah the Granlund deal was so horrific and wrongheaded it almost felt like sabotage by a guy who knew his head was gonna roll. You can't even sell it as top six insurance for next year because he quite obviously isn't capable of that.

The cap implications are a good point. It was the one win I could see going out of this miserable year. And that move more or less squashed even that small silver lining with one fell swoop.

 

[Deport Ogie]

It's Granlund and I don't think it's particularly close (though people going off menu for Brassard might be onto something)

Reasoning:

JMFJ and Reaves were bad moves made for ... understandable reasons. (I don't even hate Reaves as a player, he's not a goon, he's a legit NHLer)

The Pens needed defensive help. Johnson has blackmail on every GM in the league. So like, it "makes sense." Johnson is just far far faaaaaaaaaaaar worse than anyone in the NHL is willing or able to admit.

Reaves, again, filled a perceived need. It wasn't a need. But in NHL circles who aren't as intelligence-forward as you'd like, it was a need. And as far as "muscle" goes, Reaves isn't a goon, so he was probably the best combination of: skill, toughness, affordability we could find. That said, the price was still absurd.

With Granlund, the Pens weren't one mediocre 3rd liner away from contention. The season was clearly going to be a loss, but they had something going for them: a shit load of salary was either off or coming off the books this off-season.

prior to Granlund, it was something like 20,000,000, i think. And all they had to do was find a goalie, a defender, and maybe a top-9 forward.

It was the most-healthy the team has been from a cap perspective in years.

Not only did they kill a ton of that flexibility, THEY GAVE UP A SECOND ROUND PICK TO DO IT.

For a player who is not good. He's, at best, a 3rd liner. You can find 1,000,000 granlund's on July 1st. And you'd likely pay him less. And you'd save the pick.

Just an absolutely unforgivable move. It showed a lack of understanding of what your current team is, and a lack of vision for where it could go next season.

This is what I feel as well. More than anything it feels like Reaves was just an indication of JR and Sully not being in agreement.

When you add in all the grinding the FO did prior to Granlund to try and clear cap and offload some untenable contracts just to then go out and....fill it with that. It's like spending a week meticulously cleaning and organizing your basement only to then fill the space by overpaying for a complete collection of licensed "Herman's Head" merchandise.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I’m going with Reaves ++++ because that was the beginning of this organization making bad, non-sensical decisions. This organization struck gold with every decision they made for two years and then pissed it all away because Tom Wilson was in GMJR’s head. Then after that it was just dumb decision after dumb decision.

This is where I'm at. The Reaves deal was the beginning of the end of the Crosby era.

 

[Coastal Kev]

This is where I'm at. The Reaves deal was the beginning of the end of the Crosby era.

It wasn't a bad move. The Coach destroyed the move. Reaves was a huge part of Vegas cup march the very same year.

But let's blame JR. I started hammering about Sully's reliance on Soff players in 18, where he banished every player with grit. 5 years of results have proven me to be 100% spot on.

But again, blame JR>

 

[AjaxTelamon]

JJ is not even in the top 4 for me, as terrible as he was. Every team has an overpaid 3rd pairing guy. Doesn't make it right, but at least we didn't pay assets for the guy.

Two way tie for #1:

#1 Brassard trade, the guy had never succeeded in the role we needed filled, and had no desire to do the job either. Stupid. People on this forum advocated for a simple Plekanec type player to fill this role, but this guy had a cool nickname. Assets could have been used to find an actual legit winger for Geno for all these years like Saad.
#1b Zucker trade, it was a knee jerk to Jake being hurt, but there was no long-term fit with this team and his contract went on forever. Injury history and decline started before we got him, and it was well-documented the Wild wanted out of his contract for a year and a half because everyone knew it would not age well. Should have traded lesser assets for a short-term fix for the Jake injury, and used the assets for a winger for Geno.
#3 Rust extension, beyond stupid to give out this contract to a soft, aging perimeter player when you lucked right into his superior replacement in Rakell at the exact right time. And the timing of it was awful too. Trading Rust at any time during GMRH's tenure would have been a wakeup call to the core and allowed us to find a better fit. This deal and the player will handcuff and cripple the team for years unless they man up and just trade him or buy him out. This guy has somehow become this team's mascot, I've never seen such a middling player given so much opportunity, deference, cash, term, trade movement limits, etc in my life. It's like paying Robbie Brown $25 million.
#4 Granlund, utterly stupid and immensely complicates our last couple bites at the apple, but can be gotten out of with relatively little cap impact next year. Easier to undo than the Rust fiasco, but took assets. So this is close to a 4b.
#5 JJ

Though I think #3 or #4 will probably happen in the next couple weeks when they bring in some retread, old-school GM and they proceed to hand out $50 million to Zucker and Jarry.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Granlund was bad but I don't know, JR crippled this team by consistantly throwing away assets like candy. Dude would throw extra assets into trades just for f***s. He also was too generous when signing contracts. Seemed like he was trying more to be friendly with GMs and agents than actually run a team.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I never like to say never when it comes to trading players. After witnessing Chicago take the burned out husk of Rob Scuderi at full price years ago anything is possible. But I mean... how do you sell another team on Granlund? WTF does he do at this point that is of any value to any team? And for the pleasure of 5M for years more? You're gonna have to find another GM/AGM combo as maliciously stupid as Hextall/Pryor and I dunno if that exists.

 

[BusinessGoose]

You can't sell granlund. You need someone who just wants him. Randomly. Like RH did. Which is why we are about to have 1.8 mil more in a dead cap buyout...

I imagine NSH could hardly keep a straight face when that phone call came in and got the paperwork signed so damn fast.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

Maybe Hextall knew he was on his way out and the Granlund trade was a final middle finger to Rob Brown and the Pens org

 

[ColePens]

I will never understand the outrage over the Reeves deal.

The Brassard deal was a way bigger move. Kapanen in itself is a way worse move.

It was so weird... and that's the problem. We moved a young player and we needed young players as we were getting older. We got bigger when we just won 2 cups being the smallest/fiesty team. It was like "Hey.. what works? DO THE OPPOSITE!"

Now everyone after 2016 already tried copying the Pens so we would have had to move away eventually... but why after b2b cups? Like how the f*** do you not ride that out with youth/skill.

 

[BusinessGoose]

The worst part of reeves was the continued bath the team took to then get rid of him

Just throwing good money after bad

 

[molon labe]

JR took b2b cups and ruined it with an attempt to "protect" stars. It will go down as one of the dumbest and more irresponsible moves of all time. I will NEVER understand it.

And the Brassard trade was AWFUL only because Brassard did jack shit. I won't blame anyone but Brassard. What a f***ing waste of talent.

Absolutely. We were a bad no-goal call and a little grit away from beating Washington a third straight time and changing history. They got theirs - it is what it is - but it felt a bit cheated. They got to play a damn expansion team whereas we had insane routes for 2 straight years with Philly/Ottawa sort of being the weaker of all the teams (but still playing good hockey). Throw that away before the rest of the league caught on, for what? I'm in the blame Sully camp here - Reaves could skate. He COULD have fit the mold - but not at that cost.

Now the league has caught up, and we've aged. Beat the dead horse of my own mantra but the age of speed is dead for the Pens - the age of 2012 Kings needs to be live and well. That or go nutso with methodical defense. But we ain't outpacing New Jersey, Carolina, etc. in the reg season. Hell a 2016-2018 Caps mold would work. Topic for another day I suppose.

JJ signing and Granlund are 1A and 1B. I would say JJ was worse at the moment.

Reaves isn't even 3rd so...not sure why that's even on the list.

I put Reaves, because well - he gets votes. I know how some feel about that one. I omitted Brassard as I think the hindsight is what got that one the most.

It's Granlund and I don't think it's particularly close (though people going off menu for Brassard might be onto something)

Reasoning:

JMFJ and Reaves were bad moves made for ... understandable reasons. (I don't even hate Reaves as a player, he's not a goon, he's a legit NHLer)

The Pens needed defensive help. Johnson has blackmail on every GM in the league. So like, it "makes sense." Johnson is just far far faaaaaaaaaaaar worse than anyone in the NHL is willing or able to admit.

Reaves, again, filled a perceived need. It wasn't a need. But in NHL circles who aren't as intelligence-forward as you'd like, it was a need. And as far as "muscle" goes, Reaves isn't a goon, so he was probably the best combination of: skill, toughness, affordability we could find. That said, the price was still absurd.

With Granlund, the Pens weren't one mediocre 3rd liner away from contention. The season was clearly going to be a loss, but they had something going for them: a shit load of salary was either off or coming off the books this off-season.

prior to Granlund, it was something like 20,000,000, i think. And all they had to do was find a goalie, a defender, and maybe a top-9 forward.

It was the most-healthy the team has been from a cap perspective in years.

Not only did they kill a ton of that flexibility, THEY GAVE UP A SECOND ROUND PICK TO DO IT.

For a player who is not good. He's, at best, a 3rd liner. You can find 1,000,000 granlund's on July 1st. And you'd likely pay him less. And you'd save the pick.

Just an absolutely unforgivable move. It showed a lack of understanding of what your current team is, and a lack of vision for where it could go next season.

Great rationalle and precisely why I voted Granlund. The only positive to come from this season WAS going to be that massive cap we had coming our way. For the first time ever we weren't looking at a JR off-season with 3.8M in cap space and a 1st....we had draft pick(s) gallore, and cap space gallore....all at the PERFECT time to address what an aging Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin needed. Instead - we have to play 4D chess to address 7 different concerns. All for Granlund.

It just felt so much like - he got out of bad deals that were going to be unmoveable...prepped for a good Summer - then someone whispered to him that Sully is staying and he is going so he sabatoged his own work. I'm going to try and remain positive this Summer but there's almost no precedent to fixing so many holes. NHL GM's are notorious for making 1 'major' move, and 1 or 2 minor moves and calling it a day. We need someone who's willing to bust in here like McMahon and make some serious changes.

 

[Pancakes]

JMFJ by a mile.

Granlund was head scratching given what they needed and how Sullivan used him, but a 2nd for a guy on a 50 point pace isn't bad. Also, while he didn't provide a lot, he wasn't actively hurting the team like JMFJ either.

The only reason he was on a 50 point pace is Nashville gave him top six minutes and lots of pp time.

Granlund is terrible.

That said, JMFJ still by a mile.

 

[Zbynek]

JMFJ by a mile.

Granlund was head scratching given what they needed and how Sullivan used him, but a 2nd for a guy on a 50 point pace isn't bad. Also, while he didn't provide a lot, he wasn't actively hurting the team like JMFJ either.

Granlund is a 5 million dollar anchor on our salary cap for what will likely be the last 2 years of productive Geno and Sid. He is most definitely actively hurting the team. And not because he is a bad player in a vacuum but because he doesn't belong. Though 20 point pace is bad.

 

[Deport Ogie]

Granlund is a 5 million dollar anchor on our salary cap for what will likely be the last 2 years of productive Geno and Sid. He is most definitely actively hurting the team. And not because he is a bad player in a vacuum but because he doesn't belong. Though 20 point pace is bad.

Granlund would be actively hurting the team less if he had a role more comensurate with his actual skills, being whatever they are, as opposed to the team trying to desperately convince us he's Bob Gainey come again.

The skills he has of course, don't fit at all on this squad which is also the point.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The take of Granlund being a worse acquisition than JJ seems to be purely revisionist history or recency bias.

Granlund is a mediocre player making too much money. Johnson was arguably the worst player in all of hockey. You can get serviceable results with Granlund by throwing him out in an offensive heavy, PP specialist type of role. You can't throw JJ out in any NHL role and get serviceable results.

Also to add on the Granlund/Johnson debate, adding the impact of the added cap space from the moves right before the Granlund trade ignores the same thing happened with adding Johnson. The Penguins traded Sheary to get out of Hunwick's contract on Day 2 of the NHL draft in 2018. It's the same exact kind of move that Hextall made when he got out of Kapanen and McGinn's deals only to bring in Granlund. JR cleared out cap space and gave out a horrendous deal to JJ.

Like I said, it's recency bias to say Granlund was a worse acquisition than JJ.

The only reason he was on a 50 point pace is Nashville gave him top six minutes and lots of pp time.

Granlund is terrible.

That said, JMFJ still by a mile.

So you mean he'll produce if he's used in a proper role? How is that a negative against him?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Great rationalle and precisely why I voted Granlund. The only positive to come from this season WAS going to be that massive cap we had coming our way. For the first time ever we weren't looking at a JR off-season with 3.8M in cap space and a 1st....we had draft pick(s) gallore, and cap space gallore....all at the PERFECT time to address what an aging Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin needed. Instead - we have to play 4D chess to address 7 different concerns. All for Granlund.

It just felt so much like - he got out of bad deals that were going to be unmoveable...prepped for a good Summer - then someone whispered to him that Sully is staying and he is going so he sabatoged his own work. I'm going to try and remain positive this Summer but there's almost no precedent to fixing so many holes. NHL GM's are notorious for making 1 'major' move, and 1 or 2 minor moves and calling it a day. We need someone who's willing to bust in here like McMahon and make some serious changes.

Sheary, Hunwick traded to Sabres by Penguins | NHL.com

Pittsburgh receives conditional fourth-round pick in 2019 NHL Draft

www.nhl.com

The same exact thing happened with JJ when JR brought him in. He cleaned out 2 bad deals (one bad player and one bad fit) and used the money saved to give JJ a huge deal.

 

[Gurglesons]

Jack Johnson easily.

Granlund is hypothetically a top nine forward who is just being used atrociously by our coach.

JJ wasn’t an effective NHL player and we gave him 5 years and 3.25 mil.

 

[Sideline]

I voted Johnson because he was obviously given too much for too long from day one.

But looking at the numbers on a percentage basis Jack Johnson was signed for 4.1% of the cap for 5 years. Granlund has 2 years left at 6% of the cap.

Now I'm less sure JJ is the winner, but either way I hate both deals.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Jack Johnson, with honorable mention to Reaves for JR.

Granlund, with honorable mention to both Carter's extension and Kap's extension for Hextall.

 

[Pens1566]

Is it bad that there really doesn't seem to be a "wrong" answer????

 

[Pancakes]

So you mean he'll produce if he's used in a proper role? How is that a negative against him?

50 points when you're getting fed lots of minutes (including plenty of PP minutes) is not very impressive.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

For what it's worth, the worst move of the era was Jack Johnson and it's not even close imo. Granlund sucks absolute shit and the trade was a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction to the fire Hextall chants, but Jack Johnson was like, ECHL-caliber at certain times of his tenure here.

 

[Zbynek]

You can't sell granlund. You need someone who just wants him. Randomly. Like RH did. Which is why we are about to have 1.8 mil more in a dead cap buyout...

I imagine NSH could hardly keep a straight face when that phone call came in and got the paperwork signed so damn fast.

RH: Hey Poiler, just woke up from my siesta. Looks like this Chychrun thing is falling through and I got FSG and Mario up my ass, I need an impact player fast.
DP + Nashville brass: (All huddled over the phone like the cold call in Wolf of Wall Street) Whatever you do, do NOT mention Juuse Saros
DP: Sure Ron, totally get that, who were you thinking of?
RH: (blows dust off some old papers) I got this scouting report from 2019 on a "Mik-Kale Grandlund" and our guys are really hot on him.
DP: Uh-huh, and what were you thinking of sending our way?
RH: Well, in terms of the 1st round pick, I don't really trade those, so i don't see that being an option.
DP: How about a 2nd?
RH: Let me just check the cap... Hey Chris, did we dump Blueger yet? O yea, we're good to go. That's a done deal.
DP + Nashville brass: (muffled celebrations)

 

[Pancakes]

For what it's worth, the worst move of the era was Jack Johnson and it's not even close imo. Granlund sucks absolute shit and the trade was a pathetic, knee-jerk reaction to the fire Hextall chants, but Jack Johnson was like, ECHL-caliber at certain times of his tenure here.

What's funny about both of these moves is none of us are using any hindsight to judge them. They were clearly awful moves at the time. Everyone knew signing JJ was a terrible idea. Everyone knew trading for Granlund was a terrible idea.

Well everyone but JR and Hextall apparently.

Praying to the good lord that our next GM has some ability with player evaluation.