World Juniors

[MBH]

Yeah. I'd say if he reaches what I believe to be his points ceiling he'll be a ppg player. And that probably looks like 25-55-80.

More realistically, I'd say 20-45-65 in his prime. With maybe a career year that exceeds that.

The WJCs haven't told me much about his game.
I'm kind of stunned by how weak he looks. Total perimeter player.
Back when the SHL seasons started and I was watching Frolunda, the kid looked pretty bold, skating the puck into the slot, daring defensemen.

I'm reminded of that HP scouting report - which sort of criticized him for being too bold and trying things that work in junior but don't work against men.
But truthfully, I didn't see Raymond drive the net and challenge defensemen all that much. I wish he was bolder.

 

[MBH]

Based on play styles, ceilings, chemistry, and my own preferences, I'm hoping for....

Bert - Larkin - Mantha (why fix what ain't broke)
Raymond - Niederbach - Zadina
Fabbri - Veleno - Berggren

Maybe Ras noses his way in there somewhere. Maybe Berggren drops off. And Mastrosimone is my daark horse, big fan.

I'd mix it up and spread the grit/size.

Bert Larkin Zadina
Raymond Veleno Mantha
Berggren Niederbach Svech

 

[MBH]

Sweden looked terrible the last two nights especially today.

Broberg hurt - Sweden was rudderless against the good teams.

 

[jaster]

I just meant for this season.

But I agree & look forward to the next 2 waves of troops:

McIsaac, Johansson, Wallinder, Tuomisto possibly;
Berggren, Niederbach, Soderblom, Maestro maybe?

Ohhh.

Wait. You crazy SOB. You think Raymond, Ras, Veleno, and Brome will all be on the team this season??

 

[jaster]

I'd mix it up and spread the grit/size.

Bert Larkin Zadina
Raymond Veleno Mantha
Berggren Niederbach Svech

That's fine.

You've pushed hard for Svech to be a meaningful piece. I hope you are right. I do like his game. His path has been rough though, for various reasons.

 

[Preposterone]

The WJCs haven't told me much about his game.
I'm kind of stunned by how weak he looks. Total perimeter player.
Back when the SHL seasons started and I was watching Frolunda, the kid looked pretty bold, skating the puck into the slot, daring defensemen.

I'm reminded of that HP scouting report - which sort of criticized him for being too bold and trying things that work in junior but don't work against men.
But truthfully, I didn't see Raymond drive the net and challenge defensemen all that much. I wish he was bolder.

Dude did you even watch the game? Raymond walked the puck out into the slot for a prime shot at least three times this game, and he did the same last game a couple of times. Its disappointing he didnt finish any of those quality chances, but he was definitely creating them

 

[jaster]

The WJCs haven't told me much about his game.
I'm kind of stunned by how weak he looks. Total perimeter player.
Back when the SHL seasons started and I was watching Frolunda, the kid looked pretty bold, skating the puck into the slot, daring defensemen.

I'm reminded of that HP scouting report - which sort of criticized him for being too bold and trying things that work in junior but don't work against men.
But truthfully, I didn't see Raymond drive the net and challenge defensemen all that much. I wish he was bolder.

I remember him driving toward the net a lot of the time in their first game, against the Czechs I think? And then.... yeah, a shift toward more perimeter from then on out. Weird.

 

[MBH]

Dude did you even watch the game? Raymond walked the puck out into the slot for a prime shot at least three times this game, and he did the same last game a couple of times. Its disappointing he didnt finish any of those quality chances, but he was definitely creating them

LOL.
Are you watching?
First chance... right place right time, picks up the loose puck and has a beeline to the net.
2nd chance, steps on the ice as his penalty expires and has a 2 on 1. Fires it wide.
Not sure what third chance you're talking about.

He didn't beat anyone to get a chance.
Soderblom is "generating" chances out there, turning nothing plays into something plays.

I don't know how anyone could watch these games and think Raymond is playing very well.
The kid who looked so good to start the season in Sweden is not the kid I'm seeing at the WJCs right now. He's playing timid, perimeter hockey.

It's not the be all and end all. I'm more impressed by his Swedish league play and unimpressed by his WJC play. But based on the WJCs?? Stop sugar-coating it.

 

[Shaman464]

I'd mix it up and spread the grit/size.

Bert Larkin Zadina
Raymond Veleno Mantha
Berggren Niederbach Svech

Welcome to never making the playoffs if Veleno is your 2nd line center.

 

[MBH]

Welcome to never making the playoffs if Veleno is your 2nd line center.

As opposed to who? Fabbri?
You want to make a big cause for Niederbach being better than Veleno??? Based on what, exactly?

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Ohhh.

Wait. You crazy SOB. You think Raymond, Ras, Veleno, and Brome will all be on the team this season??

Yes.

Brome & Ras definitely, even if they're part of the taxi squad (which requires that they're playing some games, not just pressbox fodder).

Veleno & Raymond get less than 7gp at the end of SHL season, but won't burn a year of ELC.

 

[jaster]

Btw, the lack of appreciation for my on-point The Hunt For Red October meme in post 915 will not be forgotten, you 2020-dwelling cretins!

 

[lilidk]

Why not brake Raymond Holtz line. Why not let red wings forward prospects pk. Put Costmar with Holtz , Raymond with Elmer. I like effort from Raymond and Niederbach. Did anyone notice Holtz was yawning next to exhausted Raymond on the bench.

 

[simonedvinsson]

Would have taken Drysdale or Sanderson this year.

Goes back to Zadina.
2018 - D Heavy draft. We can take Dobson/Bouchard/Hughes/Boqvist. We draft a Winger.
2019 - C-heavy draft. We can take Cozens or Zegras - we draft a D (there wasn't a universal top 10 pick D in the draft)
2020 - Unless we went with Rossi or Lundell, there were no Cs. So Drysdale/Sanderson/Askarov were my picks. Probably Sanderson if we drafted a RD in 2018.

Instead of
Zadina-Seider-Raymond
we get
Dobson-Cozens-Sanderson
or maybe
Hughes-Zegras-Sanderson

So now that we’ve got another D heavy year, we are drafting a winger again, right? I’m thinking Lysell. He’s a small, Swedish speedster who plays a similar game to Raymond.

 

[golffuul]

Why not brake Raymond Holtz line. Why not let red wings forward prospects pk. Put Costmar with Holtz , Raymond with Elmer. I like effort from Raymond and Niederbach. Did anyone notice Holtz was yawning next to exhausted Raymond on the bench.

Yeah...I wasn't sold on keeping that line together, after the Russia game. And Sweden looked like they were playing an SEL game on North American ice. All of their N/S plays were outside of the dots and their passing was just garbage for most of the night. The 3rd period was hard to watch, especially, as most of the Swedish players were trying to make things happen on their own and not realizing that the US wasn't playing that great in front of their own net.

 

[Shaman464]

As opposed to who? Fabbri?
You want to make a big cause for Niederbach being better than Veleno??? Based on what, exactly?

I am saying if they don't draft or acquire someone better, that they will be a terrible team. Veleno is a bottom 6 center at best.

 

[lilidk]

I am saying if they don't draft or acquire someone better, that they will be a terrible team. Veleno is a bottom 6 center at best.

I think people going to surprise how he is progressing

 

[Shaman464]

I think people going to surprise how he is progressing

Not really, he's been unimpressive at the professional level.

 

[MBH]

I am saying if they don't draft or acquire someone better, that they will be a terrible team. Veleno is a bottom 6 center at best.

Well, that's one opinion.
To me, I see Veleno as a 3C at worst. I can easily see him as a 2C.
Not saying it's a sure thing 2C. But I would wage money on 3C.

 

[MBH]

So now that we’ve got another D heavy year, we are drafting a winger again, right? I’m thinking Lysell. He’s a small, Swedish speedster who plays a similar game to Raymond.

We better go D/C this year.
Watch Stevie draft Wallstedt or whatever his name is. Bench will love it!

 

[MBH]

Not really, he's been unimpressive at the professional level.

What are the things that prevent him from being more than a 3rd or 4th C?

Speed: good enough.
Ethic: good enough.
IQ: Definitely good enough.
Size: Good enough.
Zone entries: Good enough.

The only real thing in his game that makes me question if he's a 2C is his work in the offensive zone. I think the D zone and neutral zone play are going to come with experience.
I just don't know if he's got that sort of elite level puck skill.

In a lot of ways, very similar to Larkin.
Speed/motor isn't quite the same. But lots of similarities.

 

[Shaman464]

What are the things that prevent him from being more than a 3rd or 4th C?

Speed: good enough.
Ethic: good enough.
IQ: Definitely good enough.
Size: Good enough.
Zone entries: Good enough.

The only real thing in his game that makes me question if he's a 2C is his work in the offensive zone. I think the D zone and neutral zone play are going to come with experience.
I just don't know if he's got that sort of elite level puck skill.

In a lot of ways, very similar to Larkin.
Speed/motor isn't quite the same. But lots of similarities.

Yeah, but he doesn't score. You described Draper for the most part. The offensive zone stuff you try to wave your hands about are exactly what separate a #2 center from a #4 guy.

 

[Oddbob]

For most of the Sweden/Russia game I wasn't really impressed with Raymond in what was also my first time seeing him in game action. He stayed on the outside in the offensive zone pretty much all game, with only a few decent shifts in the 3rd period. Is he always that much a perimeter player ? It made me think more of a Nyquist/Tatar type than star, which is very unappealing for a 4th Overall. Soderblom in comparison played much better.

 

[GettingYourMoms]

He reminds me a lot of Zadina - just less shooty and a better skater.

I think they will be sick playing together, both can pass and shoot and both have very high upside. Now we need good center, and we are pretty much set up. We are in much better spot with our talent, than others think.

 

[lilidk]

Not really, he's been unimpressive at the professional level.

He is a first line 20 years old in SHL, Bergreen is 4th. He was much better in the second half of the season with GR.
Larkin was ,I believe , 3 rd line center in juniors. Both D&Z were not supposed to be first line centers. It's all depends how Prospect is developing and Veleno seems to me getting better and better.