Winnipeg Ice sold to David White, will relocate to Wenatchee, Washington

[snovalleyhockeyfan]

It seems like the WHL has done well in Washington and Portland. With no Division 1 college teams in the PNW the WHL has cornered the market. Any other US teams that the WHL would consider or is it maxed out?

I would consider it maxed out at this point. Yakima really is the only other location in WA or OR that would have an arena that would work, but the SunDome A. needs an ice plant and B. probably needs massive upgrades to locker rooms and other in-arena facilities for players in order for it to house a team. Boise is too far and has an ECHL team already and Montana won't work unless it's in Missoula or Kalispell and even then that is probably a stretch.

There have been discussions around here about what other US markets would be available for the WHL, but there aren't a lot of other options that work when you consider geography and available facilities. The league spent a year or so in Billings, which did not turn out well, and there is/has been junior hockey in places near the Canadian border, like Minot (SJHL), Billings and Butte, Montana (AWHL), Bismarck (AWHL) and Bellingham (BCJHL). I'm not sure any of those make a lot of sense for the reasons listed, and some have also speculated about Boise, but that's a long way from anywhere. Seems to me @PCSPounder has advocated for Eugene as another Oregon location, but again, I don't know what they have for an arena there.

Eugene has the Matthew Knight Arena on the U of Oregon campus but I do not think that is set up for hockey. So they'd need a new building down there more likely than not.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Don't all 16 and 17 year old CHLers have essentially no trade clauses? I know in the OHL they do.
Pretty rough for a 17 year old from the Prairies who thinks he would be playing relatively close to home to have to pack up for a different country and high school system.

Even put aside the border, as a parent to a hockey player the whole junior hockey system seems kind of crazy if you think about it. WHL bantam draft is for kids that are 15 years old. The idea of sending a 16 year old kid across the prairies to live with a billet family (who are probably much more invested in how that kid does as a hockey player than as a high school student) would terrify me.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Even put aside the border, as a parent to a hockey player the whole junior hockey system seems kind of crazy if you think about it. WHL bantam draft is for kids that are 15 years old. The idea of sending a 16 year old kid across the prairies to live with a billet family (who are probably much more invested in how that kid does as a hockey player than as a high school student) would terrify me.

The system is absolutely nuts by modern standards and it goes without saying that no one would ever design it that way today. But it's allowed to continue because "it's the way we've always done things".

It would make far more sense to adopt the basketball or football model of the high school - university - pro trajectory, but there are too many vested interests to allow that to happen. Which is sad.

 

[MeHateHe]

The system is absolutely nuts by modern standards and it goes without saying that no one would ever design it that way today. But it's allowed to continue because "it's the way we've always done things".

It would make far more sense to adopt the basketball or football model of the high school - university - pro trajectory, but there are too many vested interests to allow that to happen. Which is sad.

The draft was actually the civilized version of the WHL system. Prior to the draft coming into place, teams could list players as young as 12 without the players ever knowing.

 

[oldunclehue]

Winnipegger here.....definitly knew this would be coming. The league wasn't going to let them stay and break any agreement about a facility. The ICE ownership likely was trying to push through status quo and the league simply threatened legal processes and forced the sale to a pre-selected owner.

Winnipeg is going to be very close to struggling to keep an NHL team, AHL team and have lost its WHL team. Add in two MJHL teams who get little to no fans and now have lost a HUGE recruiting tool in regards to player advancement (Blues/Freeze players were often promised try outs with the WHL team and trainer/facilities to play for the MJHL teams at a crazy high price).

Hockey fans in Winnipeg love the sport but aren't passionate enough to pay money to watch/support it. Jets are going to be a struggle with all thats going on with players right now.

Could get ugly here in Winnipeg.

 

[oldunclehue]

Even put aside the border, as a parent to a hockey player the whole junior hockey system seems kind of crazy if you think about it. WHL bantam draft is for kids that are 15 years old. The idea of sending a 16 year old kid across the prairies to live with a billet family (who are probably much more invested in how that kid does as a hockey player than as a high school student) would terrify me.

Rare for a 15-16 year old to make a WHL team without the family being prepared for this for years. Most 16 year olds who make that jump are already top tier players in their leagues and families/teams/leagues prepare the kids for the transition. Friend of mine played 5 years WHL as a 16 year old starting in Regina. It wasn't that extreme for the parents as they had been prepared for years for it to happen. This was before cell phones and social media too so communicating was tougher.

Wentachee is supposed to be one of the better places for BCHL and loved by the players in that league. I don't doubt it will do fine in the WHL after some growing pains. At least they have a rink

 

[rsteen]

The system is absolutely nuts by modern standards and it goes without saying that no one would ever design it that way today. But it's allowed to continue because "it's the way we've always done things".

It would make far more sense to adopt the basketball or football model of the high school - university - pro trajectory, but there are too many vested interests to allow that to happen. Which is sad.

Back in the day where one kid was leaving school at 15/16 to work on a farm in the next town over, it probably seemed more reasonable to send your other 15 year old kid to Moose Jaw to play junior hockey. And as you say the vested interests will never let it change now.

 

[BadgerBruce]

The draft was actually the civilized version of the WHL system. Prior to the draft coming into place, teams could list players as young as 12 without the players ever knowing.

Exactly.

Perhaps the most egregious situation I’m aware of was Gordie Howe’s. Detroit signed him to a C-Card and then sent the 15 year-old Saskatchewan lad to Galt, Ontario, to play on one of their sponsored junior affiliates.

But GM Jack Adams in Detroit really screwed up — Howe was considered an import and the Galt team already had 3 of those, the max allowed by the CAHA.

So Gordie is in Galt and ends up taking a day job in a war time munitions factory for that entire season in Galt. Never went to high school. Never played a regular season or playoff game. Made arrangements to get off work early enough to join his Galt teammates for practice. Can you imagine your own kid going through that? That’s a lot of lawsuits.

Anyway, after missing an entire season and working in Galt, Adams inked Howe to a pro deal and sent him to Omaha of the USHL, which was a pro league back in the 1940s. Howe won rookie of the year and made the jump to the Red Wings the following season.

But all I think about is a poor and painfully shy kid playing Bantam hockey in Saskatoon during WWII getting sent all the way to Ontario where he didn’t even get to play and had to go to work to support himself.

Sure, those days are long gone now, but there’s still a significant number of players and staff members who now have to either move from the Peg to Washington state or … well, I’m not sure what viable options some of them have.

 

[Brodie]

The system is absolutely nuts by modern standards and it goes without saying that no one would ever design it that way today. But it's allowed to continue because "it's the way we've always done things".

It would make far more sense to adopt the basketball or football model of the high school - university - pro trajectory, but there are too many vested interests to allow that to happen. Which is sad.

if they moved to this model, Canadian universities would lose out which would be sad because there's much more demand in places like Swift Current and Brandon than at most large American colleges who nonetheless have more resources

 

[gstommylee]

Winnipegger here.....definitly knew this would be coming. The league wasn't going to let them stay and break any agreement about a facility. The ICE ownership likely was trying to push through status quo and the league simply threatened legal processes and forced the sale to a pre-selected owner.

Winnipeg is going to be very close to struggling to keep an NHL team, AHL team and have lost its WHL team. Add in two MJHL teams who get little to no fans and now have lost a HUGE recruiting tool in regards to player advancement (Blues/Freeze players were often promised try outs with the WHL team and trainer/facilities to play for the MJHL teams at a crazy high price).

Hockey fans in Winnipeg love the sport but aren't passionate enough to pay money to watch/support it. Jets are going to be a struggle with all thats going on with players right now.

Could get ugly here in Winnipeg.

What has the WHL leaving town cause of the owner failing what he agreed to in writing have got to do with the NHL and the AHL. Nothing. The Jets aren't going anywhere.

 

[jetsmooseice]

What has the WHL leaving town cause of the owner failing what he agreed to in writing have got to do with the NHL and the AHL. Nothing. The Jets aren't going anywhere.

100% agree with this. I think people forget that the Jets owner is worth $54 billion. Even if the Jets ran at a loss (which I doubt they do), to him it would hurt financially about as much as it hurts you or I to buy a can of gas to run the lawnmower. The Jets are fine. The Moose are here to be convenient to the parent club, much like the SJ Barracuda and other close to home farm teams who play in front of small crowds.

The MJHL teams are not expected to move the needle in a city with two pro teams. The players pay for their costs and that makes up for the lack of fans.

The only reason the WHL didn't succeed here is for lack of a facility, not fan support. Fettes and Cockell either couldn't or wouldn't build a rink, and they couldn't find someone else to do it for them. The WHL (foolishly) refused to allow the ICE to continue in their current circumstances. End of story. Lack of a facility acceptable to the league is simply not an issue for the Jets, Moose, Blues, Freeze, Bisons.

 

[PCSPounder]

Ladies

The fans that are local will migrate to the WHL but what is more important here - the fact that the relative closeness of Wenatchee to every other US Division city and how well the fans around this division travel means they'll have a lot more out of town fans coming in. Meaning that for most if not all US Division games, those will be sellouts guaranteed. And the visitors will bring with them $$ to pump into the local economy which at that time of year is somewhat slow (although the folks up the highway in Leavenworth may beg to differ).

Ladies and gentlemen, where are the gifs of referees making unnecessary extra pointing motions when a goal is scored? For that is how I want to agree with this post.

 

[PCSPounder]

There have been discussions around here about what other US markets would be available for the WHL, but there aren't a lot of other options that work when you consider geography and available facilities. The league spent a year or so in Billings, which did not turn out well, and there is/has been junior hockey in places near the Canadian border, like Minot (SJHL), Billings and Butte, Montana (AWHL), Bismarck (AWHL) and Bellingham (BCJHL). I'm not sure any of those make a lot of sense for the reasons listed, and some have also speculated about Boise, but that's a long way from anywhere. Seems to me @PCSPounder has advocated for Eugene as another Oregon location, but again, I don't know what they have for an arena there.

Eugene has discussed retrofitting the events center at the county fairgrounds for the WHL… in the DISTANT past. The old Generals ownership more recently fought to get NAHL, and have The Rink Exchange , which has seating capacity, but awful sight lines. But now, as several projects in the Northwest are under construction or proposed… nothing about hockey in Eugene, or anywhere else in the Northwest that doesn’t already have a presence.

By the way, since Matthew Knight Arena was mentioned… it’s one thing that it’s a busy arena in the winter. The womens basketball games draw at least as well as the men right now. There are concerts. I don’t think you can get 200 feet of ice in there, or even reasonably close.

 

[Brodie]

Eugene feels like it would be way on the margins here, might as well explore a California team if you're going there.

 

[Yukon Joe]

if they moved to this model, Canadian universities would lose out which would be sad because there's much more demand in places like Swift Current and Brandon than at most large American colleges who nonetheless have more resources

So lets's be clear - this is never going to happen.

But if that's how hockey had developed, it would just be a very different kind of system. You have to imagine there is no major junior hockey whatsoever. Instead the interest and fan support goes to U-Sports hockey. Fans in Saskatoon are big fans of the Huskies, not the Blades. Lethbridge has a University team, instead of not having one. That kind of thing. And under 18 kids just play with their minor hockey team.

But while this all makes a lot of sense to me in a vacuum, it's never going to happen now.

 

[oldunclehue]

What has the WHL leaving town cause of the owner failing what he agreed to in writing have got to do with the NHL and the AHL. Nothing. The Jets aren't going anywhere.

Wait until the next few seasons roll around. Jets were fighting for 1st in the west most of the first half of the season and couldn't sell out the arena. If Dubois, Sheif, Helle, Wheeler and other notable names are gone and the team struggles.....I bet my left nut that the fans won't be willing to pay to go to the arena.

100% agree with this. I think people forget that the Jets owner is worth $54 billion. Even if the Jets ran at a loss (which I doubt they do), to him it would hurt financially about as much as it hurts you or I to buy a can of gas to run the lawnmower. The Jets are fine. The Moose are here to be convenient to the parent club, much like the SJ Barracuda and other close to home farm teams who play in front of small crowds.

The MJHL teams are not expected to move the needle in a city with two pro teams. The players pay for their costs and that makes up for the lack of fans.

The only reason the WHL didn't succeed here is for lack of a facility, not fan support. Fettes and Cockell either couldn't or wouldn't build a rink, and they couldn't find someone else to do it for them. The WHL (foolishly) refused to allow the ICE to continue in their current circumstances. End of story. Lack of a facility acceptable to the league is simply not an issue for the Jets, Moose, Blues, Freeze, Bisons.

David Tomson is the investor in regards to ownership. Yes on paper he owns the team but Chipman is the OWNER and runs the business. Tomson is not in this as a passion project, hes in it for the investment. If the team starts to struggle on the ice and business side he won't just throw money at the organization for fun.

 

[jetsmooseice]

David Tomson is the investor in regards to ownership. Yes on paper he owns the team but Chipman is the OWNER and runs the business. Tomson is not in this as a passion project, hes in it for the investment. If the team starts to struggle on the ice and business side he won't just throw money at the organization for fun.

When the Jets left in 96, the problem was that no one wanted to be on the hook for the team's operating losses. Had someone stepped up, they probably would have made out like bandits in the long run due to the franchise's appreciation in value... that would have likely more than offset any operating losses.

To a guy like Thomson, ability to handle operating losses is a total non-issue. Not to say he wouldn't notice if the club was losing money year over year, but as long as the franchise as a whole (i.e. its overall asset value) was healthy, I can't imagine that he'd lose a moment's sleep over it.

 

[Yukon Joe]

When the Jets left in 96, the problem was that no one wanted to be on the hook for the team's operating losses. Had someone stepped up, they probably would have made out like bandits in the long run due to the franchise's appreciation in value... that would have likely more than offset any operating losses.

To a guy like Thomson, ability to handle operating losses is a total non-issue. Not to say he wouldn't notice if the club was losing money year over year, but as long as the franchise as a whole (i.e. its overall asset value) was healthy, I can't imagine that he'd lose a moment's sleep over it.

Winnipeg Jets were sold in 1996 for $65 million. By 2011 the price to purchase a team and move it back to Winnipeg was $170 million. By 2021 the price appears to be close to $1 billion.

So yeah in 1996 owner Barry Shenkarow didn't have the funds available to cover the losses - he was just a lawyer, not a billionaire. But if someone had stepped up to buy the team and cover any losses (there was a plan to build a new arena in place by 1995) they would have made out like freaking bandits.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Winnipeg Jets were sold in 1996 for $65 million. By 2011 the price to purchase a team and move it back to Winnipeg was $170 million. By 2021 the price appears to be close to $1 billion.

So yeah in 1996 owner Barry Shenkarow didn't have the funds available to cover the losses - he was just a lawyer, not a billionaire. But if someone had stepped up to buy the team and cover any losses (there was a plan to build a new arena in place by 1995) they would have made out like freaking bandits.

That was why the team left... no one wanted to be on the hook for losses (this was before the days of salary caps and revenue sharing so the situation was much more volatile). Interesting that even shrewd businessmen like Izzy Asper didn't have the nerve to give it a go. Instead he lost his fortune placing a losing bet on newspapers.

Losing a couple million bucks a year on ops is nothing when the asset is worth like 15x what it would have been in 1996. For a guy like Thomson it's no issue, it's just the cost of doing business.

 

[Yukon Joe]

That was why the team left... no one wanted to be on the hook for losses (this was before the days of salary caps and revenue sharing so the situation was much more volatile). Interesting that even shrewd businessmen like Izzy Asper didn't have the nerve to give it a go. Instead he lost his fortune placing a losing bet on newspapers.

Losing a couple million bucks a year on ops is nothing when the asset is worth like 15x what it would have been in 1996. For a guy like Thomson it's no issue, it's just the cost of doing business.

OK, so now we're going pretty far afield, but Izzy Asper didn't lose his fortune - he died a wealthy man in 2003.

His son, Leonard Asper, lost the family business in 2009. I really wouldn't blame their purchase of Southam newspapers in 2000 either (although obviously 23 years later newspapers are a terrible business to be in). Rather the company just took on far too much debt, couldn't afford its debt payments, and given the global financial crisis nobody would loan them any more and the entire company had to file for bankruptcy.

 

[hockeykid87]

So the Wild are not keeping Chris Clark as head coach. Which I suppose makes sense, as he has zero WHL experience. Not like Bliss Littler does either, however.

 

[MeHateHe]

So the Wild are not keeping Chris Clark as head coach. Which I suppose makes sense, as he has zero WHL experience. Not like Bliss Littler does either, however.

Here's the full interview.



It's bizarre that they would shitcan the coach and have a guy without any WHL experience drop in as GM.

 

[superdeluxe]

Maybe he's wealthy enough that it just doesn't matter to him?

On a related note, how much does the WHL register in the minds of the typical Wenatchee resident? Will there be any meaningful difference to them in terms of BCHL vs. WHL? The Wild seem fairly well supported, I wonder how many more fans moving to the WHL would realistically bring out of the woodwork for them.

They already roughly draw around 2500-3000k fans, which places them in the lower half of the WHL attendance rankings. But they sit around 2.5 hours driving distance from all four Washington teams, so your visiting crowds will be higher, Plus I think the higher caliber of play/players will bring new fans. The Ticket account executive mentioned that they were selling a lot of Season Ticket packages with the news...and just Anecdotally speaking, There is a lot of interest at least in Seattle of getting some large groups going (Wenatchee area is also close to a ski resort (Mission RIdge) and the Bavarian style resort town of LEavenworth), we are definitely looking at making it a whole weekend.

So the Wild are not keeping Chris Clark as head coach. Which I suppose makes sense, as he has zero WHL experience. Not like Bliss Littler does either, however.

Clark I believe 'retired' a few days before the official announcement. I also assumed Cockell wasn't coming along since he was one of the owners.

 

[superdeluxe]

Even put aside the border, as a parent to a hockey player the whole junior hockey system seems kind of crazy if you think about it. WHL bantam draft is for kids that are 15 years old. The idea of sending a 16 year old kid across the prairies to live with a billet family (who are probably much more invested in how that kid does as a hockey player than as a high school student) would terrify me.

The Billet system is in place with all levels of amateur Hockey, not just the WHL, and I think its a unfair characterisation that these families are much more invested in how the kid does a hockey player, than as a person/student/athlete.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Here's the full interview.



It's bizarre that they would shitcan the coach and have a guy without any WHL experience drop in as GM.

Extremely doubtful to me that Patrick would want to pick up and move to Wenatchee at this point in his life (Patrick is from Winnipeg). He probably signed on with Cranbrook because he was told it would be temporary until the team relocated to Manitoba. I wonder if Patrick's next stop is back to the NHL?

It's probably the same with Cockell not wanting to move. But even if that wasn't the case, I doubt they'd want an ex-owner involved calling the shots, it sounds like it would be as awkward as hell.